Religious beliefs on bitcoin

[Tekkna]

Not if you believe your god is omnipotent. If you believe your god is all-powerful then you do not have free will. If you believe he is not, then he is not a god.

What does omnipotence have to do with free will?

[KeyserSoze]

Not if you believe your god is omnipotent. If you believe your god is all-powerful then you do not have free will. If you believe he is not, then he is not a god.

What does omnipotence have to do with free will?

An omnipotent being would know the future before it occurred, in fact would be causing the future to happen as he wished. If you were traveling down a road and came to a fork would you go left or right? If you choose left and god knows you will go right, how is this an actual choice if you were really set on going left?

Aside from that, if you believe in the christian god, none of us chose to be placed into his twisted game of heaven versus hell, yet he purportedly eternally punishes anyone who doesn't succumb to his will. That is not choice, that is extortion, and it's against our manmade laws for a reason.

In addition there may be scientific evidence negating the possibility of free will, though I don't personally feel there's yet enough evidence for the hypothesis:
http://io9.com/5975778/scientific-evidence-that-you-probably-dont-have-free-will
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1567424X09701588
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-01-01/free-will-science-religion/52317624/1

[ktttn]

And of course, an oldie, but always a goodie:

God doesn't prevent terrible things because:

1) He can't
2) He doesn't want to
3) He causes them
4) He doesn't exist.

Which one do you think is the right answer?

5) He gives man free will.
6) Some people deserve punishment.

I give me free will. If someone gives me it, did I not have it in the first place?
God made it so bad can be an option. The inventor of bad, builder of hell, determiner of infinite torture scares folks.
So nuking dead horses..
Atheists piss me off sometimes, but theists make me sad.

[Tekkna]

Not if you believe your god is omnipotent. If you believe your god is all-powerful then you do not have free will. If you believe he is not, then he is not a god.

What does omnipotence have to do with free will?

An omnipotent being would know the future before it occurred, in fact would be causing the future to happen as he wished. If you were traveling down a road and came to a fork would you go left or right? If you choose left and god knows you will go right, how is this an actual choice if you were really set on going left?

Aside from that, if you believe in the christian god, none of us chose to be placed into his twisted game of heaven versus hell, yet he purportedly eternally punishes anyone who doesn't succumb to his will. That is not choice, that is extortion, and it's against our manmade laws for a reason.

In addition there may be scientific evidence negating the possibility of free will, though I don't personally feel there's yet enough evidence for the hypothesis:
http://io9.com/5975778/scientific-evidence-that-you-probably-dont-have-free-will
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1567424X09701588
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-01-01/free-will-science-religion/52317624/1

It would seem that instead of omnipotence, you meant omniscience.

I believe the future is deterministic, and yet I believe in free will. I suppose at first glance it seems a contradiction, although God may see the endgame, there is no reason to suppose you don't have control of your decisions now, even though there is a definite and determinable decision you will make.

The standard argument against free will, according to philosopher J. J. C. Smart focuses on the implications of determinism for 'free will'. However, he suggests free will is denied whether determinism is true or not. On one hand, if determinism is true, all our actions are predicted and we are assumed not to be free; on the other hand, if determinism is false, our actions are presumed to be random and as such we do not seem free because we had no part in controlling what happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism#With_free_will

As for the common painting of God as evil, it's getting old. God has created an absolute moral system, which is really the only kind that works. Flimsy preferential morals do not work.

The existence of hell is in line with the view of a Just creator, not simply a creator who wants everyone to be happy.

@ktttn
Theists actually vary on whether or not there is a hell, some would say not. Theism simply means there is a God and does not go much into depth after that.

[QuestionAuthority]

There is NO WAY I want to go to heaven and meet a being that is responsible for the hate that is listed in the Christian bible.

God will kill men, have their children smashed, and have their wives raped (Isaiah 13:15-16).
God will punish children for the iniquities of their fathers and distant ancestors (Isaiah 14:21).
God will lay waste to entire cities and make the lands desolate (Jeremiah 4:7).
God will set people, animals, and even plants on fire because of his anger (Jeremiah 7:20).
God will send so much evil that people would rather be dead than suffer (Jeremiah 8:3).
God will give away the property of men, including their wives, to other men (Jeremiah 8:10).
God will kill young men, and their children will die from a famine (Jeremiah 11:22).
God will cause everyone to become drunk so father and son will kill one another (Jeremiah 13:14).
God will not hear the cries of the people or acknowledge their sacrifices (Jeremiah 14:12).
God will make people hungry enough to eat their own children and friends (Jeremiah 19:9).
God will burn entire cities with the inhabitants still inside (Jeremiah 50:32).
God will break people’s bones and knock their teeth out with stones (Lamentations 3:1-16).
God will force fathers and sons to eat each other and scatter their remembrance (Ezekiel 5:10).
God will be comforted by killing everyone with pestilence, plagues, and swords (Ezekiel 5:12-13).
God will lay dead bodies around idols and spread their bones around the alters (Ezekiel 6:5).
God will kill righteous men and forget their good deeds if they ever turn to sin (Ezekiel 18:24).
God will turn daughters into whores and wives into adulterers (Hosea 4:13).
God will kill children when they come out of their mothers’ wombs (Hosea 10:14).
God will tear people apart and devour them like a lion (Hosea 13:8 ).
God will kill children and unborn fetuses because their parents worship other gods (Hosea 13:16).
God will sell the children of Israel into slavery in a far away land (Joel 3:8 ).
God will kill inhabitants of entire cities if they have a corrupt government (Micah 3:9-12).
God will consume every living thing from the face of the earth (Zephaniah 1:2-3).
God will send people to steal Jerusalem, rape the women, and enslave the rest (Zechariah 14:2).
God will send plagues on people and animals to rot away tongues and eyes (Zechariah 14:12-15).
Anyone who goes uncircumcised is to be exiled from his people (Genesis 17:14).
If a man has sex with a menstruating women, both are to be exiled (Leviticus 20:18).
A man who marries a mother and daughter must burn in a fire (Leviticus 20:14).
If two men have sexual relations, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:13).
If a mother and son have sexual relations, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:11).
If a man and daughter-in-law have sex, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:12).
If a man has sex with an animal, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:15).
If a woman has sex with an animal, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:16).
Anyone who attacks his mother or father must be put to death (Exodus 21:15).
Anyone who curses his mother or father must be put to death (Leviticus 20:9).
Anyone who commits murder must be put to death (Leviticus 24:17).
Anyone who commits adultery must be put to death (Deuteronomy 22:22).
Anyone who commits perjury must be put to death (Deuteronomy 19:18-19).
Anyone who commits kidnapping must be put to death (Exodus 21:16).
Anyone who disobeys a judge or priest must be put to death (Deuteronomy 17:12).
Anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death (Exodus 35:2).
Anyone who does not worship God must be put to death (2 Chronicles 15:13).
Any strangers approaching a sanctuary must be put to death (Numbers 17:7).
Any prophet who tries to turn you against God must be put to death (Deuteronomy 13:5).
Any prophet who makes a wrong prediction must be put to death (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).
Family members who tempt you with other gods must be put to death (Deuteronomy 13:1-5).
If an ox gores someone, the ox and its owner must be stoned to death (Exodus 21:29).
Anyone who claims to talk with spirits must be stoned to death (Leviticus 20:27).
A stubborn and rebellious son must be stoned to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).
Any woman who has had premarital sex must be stoned to death (Deuteronomy 22:21).
Anyone who worships another god must be stoned to death (Deuteronomy 17:2-7).
Anyone who curses or blasphemes must be stoned to death (Leviticus 24:14-16).
Break the neck of your donkey’s firstborn or kill a lamb instead (Exodus 34:20).
If a city worships other gods, kill everyone in it and burn it (Deuteronomy 13:12-16).

[Tekkna]

O_O

I don't even know where to begin. I suppose I could go through the entire list, and show you where you're misquoting, but I'm pretty lazy, so I'll just do a few.

If two men have sexual relations, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:13).
If a mother and son have sexual relations, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:11).
If a man and daughter-in-law have sex, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:12).
If a man has sex with an animal, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:15).

I suppose you're supporting bestiality, incest and homosexuality then?

Most of these are actually curses, not something God is going to do to everyone ...

God will kill inhabitants of entire cities if they have a corrupt government (Micah 3:9-12).

Aren't you supposed to be libertarian?

If an ox gores someone, the ox and its owner must be stoned to death (Exodus 21:29).

I believe we have this in US law too, imagine if through some mechanical malfunction your machinery kills someone, you are liable for their life, and under a just law system such a person should be put to death. A pretty good reason to make sure your machinery doesn't kill someone, huh?

Anyway, that's a few at least.

[KeyserSoze]

It would seem that instead of omnipotence, you meant omniscience.

If one is all powerful then one has the power of omniscience.

As for the common painting of God as evil, it's getting old. God has created an absolute moral system, which is really the only kind that works. Flimsy preferential morals do not work.

We know your god by his works, and according to christians he leaves a wake of woe and destruction. He's painted as evil because he is. There are no absolute morals, if for no other reason than that he breaks every single one himself and by default cannot be absolute.

Don't bother going down the absolute moral values road hand in hand with William Lane Craig. He's an intelligent solipsist who continually has his testicles crushed holding that opinion in debates with Sam Harris and Shelly Kagan.

There is no such thing as absolute moral values and the argument for it leaves me wondering how Craig keeps a straight face. If murder is absolutely wrong in all cases, then your god is the most evil creature in existence. If there are absolute moral values why would your god have raped a 13 year old in order to give birth to himself? If there are absolute moral values provided by your god, why does anyone dare wear mixed wool and linen clothes? If there are absolute moral values why is it deemed virtuous Lot offered up his daughters to be raped instead of the angels he harboured? If there are absolute moral values why does god not only approve but expect his sheep to keep slaves?

Morality: Using empathy as a guide for human interaction. AKA, "treat others the way you want to be treated" and "put yourself in my shoes". It has nothing inherently to do with the bible.

When morality is based on religious text, its equally OK to:
• deny emergency medical aid to a child
• kill gays, children who misbehave, anyone who works on a particular day of the week, entire groups and races of peoples, and many others for equally capricious reasons
• buy and sell humans as chattel, including one's own family members

Karen Wynn of Yale has a study showing even babies have an idea of wrong versus right. Neuroscientist Christian Keysers has done research to show that the brain of those who see others receiving pain themselves have similar neurological responses. There is a curve to empathy; some feel it more than others. But it certainly doesn't come from a hateful book about imaginary people.

Humans and probably other animals exist on a spectrum of empathy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

Frans de Waal shows that even monkeys employ "morality"...
http://youtu.be/GcJxRqTs5nk

[QuestionAuthority]

O_O

I don't even know where to begin. I suppose I could go through the entire list, and show you where you're misquoting, but I'm pretty lazy, so I'll just do a few.

If two men have sexual relations, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:13).
If a mother and son have sexual relations, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:11).
If a man and daughter-in-law have sex, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:12).
If a man has sex with an animal, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:15).

I suppose you're supporting bestiality, incest and homosexuality then?

Most of these are actually curses, not something God is going to do to everyone ...

God will kill inhabitants of entire cities if they have a corrupt government (Micah 3:9-12).

Aren't you supposed to be libertarian?

If an ox gores someone, the ox and its owner must be stoned to death (Exodus 21:29).

I believe we have this in US law too, imagine if through some mechanical malfunction your machinery kills someone, you are liable for their life, and under a just law system such a person should be put to death. A pretty good reason to make sure your machinery doesn't kill someone, huh?

Anyway, that's a few at least.

Yes, I think murder is a fitting punishment for homosexuality.  

No, I'm not a libertarian.

No, I don't believe in an eye for an eye in any situation. Two wrongs never make a right.

If God is perfect then why did she create such imperfect beings that she has to threaten death constantly to get them to do what she wants? Was God bored and needed something to play with? God would know ahead of time how you would react to any situation. There is no choice or free will when you know everything that will happen, and created it to happen that way. So effectively she damned me to hell because she made me imperfect. There is only one way to make any of this make sense. Men fabricated the bible like any other ghastly horror novel and there is no God. Period.

[firefop]

I just wanted to point something out, as a former bible scholar... you're quoting mistranslations and making judgements on the translated word.

Specifically leviticus 20:13. a more accurate translation is:

If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guilt is upon them.

This isn't a command for people to kill them. This is description of the result of their actions. Death, in the eternal sense... eradication of the soul. With the reasoning included. They've sinned against their bloodline by not producing children abd thus their legacy doesn't exist.

[QuestionAuthority]

I just wanted to point something out, as a former bible scholar... you're quoting mistranslations and making judgements on the translated word.

Specifically leviticus 20:13. a more accurate translation is:

If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guilt is upon them.

This isn't a command for people to kill them. This is description of the result of their actions. Death, in the eternal sense... eradication of the soul. With the reasoning included. They've sinned against their bloodline by not producing children abd thus their legacy doesn't exist.

You can interpret and attempt to soften that collection of crap anyway you like but I still won't believe it. I can't rationally believe in ancient Christian mythology like the God of Abraham or the God of King James any more than I can believe in ancient Norse mythology like Thor or Greek mythology like Apollo.

[firefop]

I just wanted to point something out, as a former bible scholar... you're quoting mistranslations and making judgements on the translated word.

Specifically leviticus 20:13. a more accurate translation is:

If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guilt is upon them.

This isn't a command for people to kill them. This is description of the result of their actions. Death, in the eternal sense... eradication of the soul. With the reasoning included. They've sinned against their bloodline by not producing children abd thus their legacy doesn't exist.

You can interpret and attempt to soften that collection of crap anyway you like but I still won't believe it. I can't rationally believe in ancient Christian mythology like the God of Abraham or the God of King James any more than I can believe in ancient Norse mythology like Thor or Greek mythology like Apollo.

I'm not trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that if you're going to say what it says... (and make rational judgements based on that) you should probably study it in the original language so you actually know what it says.

[ktttn]

Not if you believe your god is omnipotent. If you believe your god is all-powerful then you do not have free will. If you believe he is not, then he is not a god.

What does omnipotence have to do with free will?

An omnipotent being would know the future before it occurred, in fact would be causing the future to happen as he wished. If you were traveling down a road and came to a fork would you go left or right? If you choose left and god knows you will go right, how is this an actual choice if you were really set on going left?

Aside from that, if you believe in the christian god, none of us chose to be placed into his twisted game of heaven versus hell, yet he purportedly eternally punishes anyone who doesn't succumb to his will. That is not choice, that is extortion, and it's against our manmade laws for a reason.

In addition there may be scientific evidence negating the possibility of free will, though I don't personally feel there's yet enough evidence for the hypothesis:
http://io9.com/5975778/scientific-evidence-that-you-probably-dont-have-free-will
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1567424X09701588
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-01-01/free-will-science-religion/52317624/1

It would seem that instead of omnipotence, you meant omniscience.

I believe the future is deterministic, and yet I believe in free will. I suppose at first glance it seems a contradiction, although God may see the endgame, there is no reason to suppose you don't have control of your decisions now, even though there is a definite and determinable decision you will make.

The standard argument against free will, according to philosopher J. J. C. Smart focuses on the implications of determinism for 'free will'. However, he suggests free will is denied whether determinism is true or not. On one hand, if determinism is true, all our actions are predicted and we are assumed not to be free; on the other hand, if determinism is false, our actions are presumed to be random and as such we do not seem free because we had no part in controlling what happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism#With_free_will

As for the common painting of God as evil, it's getting old. God has created an absolute moral system, which is really the only kind that works. Flimsy preferential morals do not work.

The existence of hell is in line with the view of a Just creator, not simply a creator who wants everyone to be happy.

@ktttn
Theists actually vary on whether or not there is a hell, some would say not. Theism simply means there is a God and does not go much into depth after that.

*satoshi shows up to the party*
HAIGUIZE.BTC
THEIST : "Haubud longtime NO SEE! So i herd u liek systems that work!"
"Id like to thank jesus... sure am glad god is benevolent enough to create moral systems that actually work!"
Noforealdo... Determinism needs to do backflips to get anywhere. Gymnast? Use determinism. Think the world's a hell? Use satanism. Think other things? Read more books than the bible-based christian bookstore or whoever approved protestant targeted imawhitedudeandimheretotalktoyouaboutjesusevolution MAXUMUM%TINFOIL author whatevers.

[ktttn]

O_O

I don't even know where to begin. I suppose I could go through the entire list, and show you where you're misquoting, but I'm pretty lazy, so I'll just do a few.

If two men have sexual relations, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:13).
If a mother and son have sexual relations, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:11).
If a man and daughter-in-law have sex, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:12).
If a man has sex with an animal, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:15).

I suppose you're supporting bestiality, incest and homosexuality then?

Most of these are actually curses, not something God is going to do to everyone ...

God will kill inhabitants of entire cities if they have a corrupt government (Micah 3:9-12).

Aren't you supposed to be libertarian?

If an ox gores someone, the ox and its owner must be stoned to death (Exodus 21:29).

I believe we have this in US law too, imagine if through some mechanical malfunction your machinery kills someone, you are liable for their life, and under a just law system such a person should be put to death. A pretty good reason to make sure your machinery doesn't kill someone, huh?

Anyway, that's a few at least.

Thank you for clarifying the bible. I see you've accidentally written your own bible thar. Your bible is RIGHT, Of course.
Yeah, thats cool. Very nice bible you have.
A BIBLE still says...dat... ribaldly evil stuff...ttho. so.. um. Still a problem?

[ktttn]

O_O

I don't even know where to begin. I suppose I could go through the entire list, and show you where you're misquoting, but I'm pretty lazy, so I'll just do a few.

If two men have sexual relations, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:13).
If a mother and son have sexual relations, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:11).
If a man and daughter-in-law have sex, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:12).
If a man has sex with an animal, both must be put to death (Leviticus 20:15).

I suppose you're supporting bestiality, incest and homosexuality then?

Most of these are actually curses, not something God is going to do to everyone ...

God will kill inhabitants of entire cities if they have a corrupt government (Micah 3:9-12).

Aren't you supposed to be libertarian?

If an ox gores someone, the ox and its owner must be stoned to death (Exodus 21:29).

I believe we have this in US law too, imagine if through some mechanical malfunction your machinery kills someone, you are liable for their life, and under a just law system such a person should be put to death. A pretty good reason to make sure your machinery doesn't kill someone, huh?

Anyway, that's a few at least.

Yes, I think murder is a fitting punishment for homosexuality.  

No, I'm not a libertarian.

No, I don't believe in an eye for an eye in any situation. Two wrongs never make a right.

If God is perfect then why did she create such imperfect beings that she has to threaten death constantly to get them to do what she wants? Was God bored and needed something to play with? God would know ahead of time how you would react to any situation. There is no choice or free will when you know everything that will happen, and created it to happen that way. So effectively she damned me to hell because she made me imperfect. There is only one way to make any of this make sense. Men fabricated the bible like any other ghastly horror novel and there is no God. Period.

standingovation.gif,roaring_applause.oog
trolling softly... oh so softly.


So gently...
Meanwhile:
Murder might be a fitting punishment for more heterosexuality amirite?

[pwi]

Not if you believe your god is omnipotent. If you believe your god is all-powerful then you do not have free will. If you believe he is not, then he is not a god.

What does omnipotence have to do with free will?

An omnipotent being would know the future before it occurred, in fact would be causing the future to happen as he wished. If you were traveling down a road and came to a fork would you go left or right? If you choose left and god knows you will go right, how is this an actual choice if you were really set on going left?

Aside from that, if you believe in the christian god, none of us chose to be placed into his twisted game of heaven versus hell, yet he purportedly eternally punishes anyone who doesn't succumb to his will. That is not choice, that is extortion, and it's against our manmade laws for a reason.

In addition there may be scientific evidence negating the possibility of free will, though I don't personally feel there's yet enough evidence for the hypothesis:
http://io9.com/5975778/scientific-evidence-that-you-probably-dont-have-free-will
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1567424X09701588
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-01-01/free-will-science-religion/52317624/1

Someone listened to one too many sermons rather than studying with an open mind. You really just described one of the great mysteries of man vs gods. It is angering and confusing to comprehend something so silly.

Let's view this though the lens of physics and science instead. Experimentally we have sent radio waves and small particles through time. What does this mean? It means that those creations existed at both inception and at another time. This opens the possibility that they were here all along, and will be present long after they are perceived.

I understand your logic. I just think that many of us are jaded by the simplistic and often dogmatic views espoused by modern Christians. They refuse to understand the physical world as much as the atheist/agnostic refuses to acknowledge the spiritual world.

Many agnostic and atheist physicists tirelessly search for the 'God Theory' that supposedly will reconcile the realms and explain why the laws that dictate large particle interactions (gravity etc) do not hold true in the quantum realm and visa versa. Although we can observe and measure both quantum and classical physical phenomena; we cannot reconcile the simultaneous existence of them both.

Enigmatic at the least. Demands further study with an open mind by all rational people.

[Akka]

I just wanted to point something out, as a former bible scholar... you're quoting mistranslations and making judgements on the translated word.

Specifically leviticus 20:13. a more accurate translation is:

If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guilt is upon them.

This isn't a command for people to kill them. This is description of the result of their actions. Death, in the eternal sense... eradication of the soul. With the reasoning included. They've sinned against their bloodline by not producing children abd thus their legacy doesn't exist.

You can interpret and attempt to soften that collection of crap anyway you like but I still won't believe it. I can't rationally believe in ancient Christian mythology like the God of Abraham or the God of King James any more than I can believe in ancient Norse mythology like Thor or Greek mythology like Apollo.

I'm not trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that if you're going to say what it says... (and make rational judgements based on that) you should probably study it in the original language so you actually know what it says.

This pick and choose is something that really annoys me.
The Bible is the word of god, but only as long as what is written there is socially acceptable. As soon as it isn't anymore, it just is "took out of context", "translated wrong " or isn't meant to be took literally.

Either all of it is the word of God and has to be took literally or none of it. This picking and choosing which parts I like and choose to interpret as right is just hypocritical.

Btw. my favorite Psalm, completely took out of context and probably wrong translated:

Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock

[Tirapon]

Unless of course that wasn't supposed to be an argument, in which case I quite like your elephant hypothesis.

It isn't an argument as much as it is just meant to illustrate the absurdity. They are equal arguments since neither has any empirical evidence pointing to its validity.

If you're interested in worshiping Elephus, please understand she is the one true god, and the path to her exists only through obeying my word, her right hand man and appointed prophet. As far as you know, we celebrate her appropriately on St. Elephus Day by wearing wrinkly grey boots and an elephant mask while prancing through the streets showering with pink and brown confetti those gathered to bear witness to her godliness. And there's beer. Oh, and women jumping out of cakes.

Beer and women jumping out of cakes sounds good. I'm not going to wear wrinkly grey boots or an elephant mask though, that's just stupid.

[noelmal]

ahhh religion....biggest money spinner

[Tirapon]

Someone listened to one too many sermons rather than studying with an open mind. You really just described one of the great mysteries of man vs gods. It is angering and confusing to comprehend something so silly.

Let's view this though the lens of physics and science instead. Experimentally we have sent radio waves and small particles through time. What does this mean? It means that those creations existed at both inception and at another time. This opens the possibility that they were here all along, and will be present long after they are perceived.

I understand your logic. I just think that many of us are jaded by the simplistic and often dogmatic views espoused by modern Christians. They refuse to understand the physical world as much as the atheist/agnostic refuses to acknowledge the spiritual world.

Many agnostic and atheist physicists tirelessly search for the 'God Theory' that supposedly will reconcile the realms and explain why the laws that dictate large particle interactions (gravity etc) do not hold true in the quantum realm and visa versa. Although we can observe and measure both quantum and classical physical phenomena; we cannot reconcile the simultaneous existence of them both.

Enigmatic at the least. Demands further study with an open mind by all rational people.

Ah, an intelligent post - well done, sir. Respect +1

[Rassah]

And of course, an oldie, but always a goodie:

God doesn't prevent terrible things because:

1) He can't
2) He doesn't want to
3) He causes them
4) He doesn't exist.

Which one do you think is the right answer?

5) He gives man free will.
6) Some people deserve punishment.

#6 = #3. Also, fuck those starving African children. They never heard of God, so they deserve those horrible deaths, right?

As for #5, if God knows everything that happened, is happening, and will happen, then everything that will happen is already predetermined, and despite the illusion of "free will," god already knows who will sin and go to hell, and who will not, even for those who aren't born yet. So why the charade? Why not just stop sinners from being born in the first place, if he knows he's just going to torture them for ever?