That’s what I thought you were talking about. With due respect to your answers about image Mike C my question still remains. Does anyone know what the legal responsibility is or if there have ever been any cases internationally where a money exchanger not affiliated with a bank was convicted because he knew what the exchanged currency would be used for? Does the exchanger have any liability? Generally speaking ... yes. If you are aware your actions are in furtherance of a crime your "plausible deniability" is gone. You "could" be charged with everything from receipt of stolen goods, laundering money, or even engaging in conspiracy for the furtherance of a criminal enterprise". Now you not be prosecuted but you have crossed the line and now are merely hoping for the mercy of the state to keep you out of trouble. The details of the scenario(s) will play a large part in the likelihood of an arrest. TL/DR: It is the difference between your friend giving you a good "deal" on an HDTV we doesn't want anymore and your buddy saying "dude I got this HDTV I just stole from the house down the street, want it for $300". While you may be out $300 in either scenario, agreeing to the later is a crime (even if your "buddy" is an undercover cop). Note the above post is just informational, always consult legal counsel for specific advice about your situation. |
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When everyone gets their ASICS you 40GH/s will be more like 2 GH/s now.
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Halving will have some effect on price but the halving has been known for a long time. It has been know since prior to the first block being mined. There is a large existing supply. The halving doesn't cut the supply if half it simply cuts the increase in the supply in half.
IMHO the effect has already been accounted for by the market.
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With the difficulty going up so much and the halving happening, shouldn't BTC go up in value?
Price affects difficulty, difficulty doesn't affect price. |
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Um that part you bolded isn't new. It has been that way for almost six months now. I guess some people never read their TOS.
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I think the extending confirmation time of BTC will eventually proove a stumbling block. I can envisage a time, say 5~10 years in the future, were blocks may take days to confirm. I think that this will drive BTC to be primarily high value transactions only as they will be very secure however people will not want to wait days for coonfirmations. This is were a faster currency, like LTC, can step in and fill the relatively rapid transaction space.
In 5 to 10 years blocks will be every 10 minutes. In 50 to 100 years if Bitcoin is still around blocks will be every 10 minutes. Where do you get this idea that blocks will take longer and longer? |
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Update: MtGox customer support reports documents have been transferred to the new office.
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Your client will continually auto-rebroadcast until the tx is included in a block so there is nothing "special" you need to do.
In theory it could be excluded by all miners and never be included in a block but as a practical reality the worst that will happen is the transaction is delayed. It could be delayed significantly though (hours or even days).
BTW many pools consider ultra low fees the same as free tx. So your tx gets lumped in with the other giant, "spammy", low priority, freeloader txs. In other words not much rush to get to them.
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There are other regulations which apply to "value transfer" and "stored value". That's why you can't just look at one bit of the regulations in isolation and claim that nothing can be applied to Bitcoin. How you're actually using something often determines what laws apply. Even with USD, which regulations apply depend on how they're being used. I haven't looked at one bit of regulation in isolation. I was merely responding to the post dealing with currency exchange/broker. Nobody is saying Bitcoin isn't subject to any regulations. As an example selling drugs for Bitcoins is just as illegal as selling them for dollars. Still the thead is about MSB and the post I responded to was on currency exchanges/brokers. BTW I don't think the over provisions apply but I wans't ingoring them, they simply were outside the context of the debate. It's easy to say "they can't apply regulation X because Bitcoin isn't Y", but it's not your ass which is on the line if you're wrong about that or you who'll have to appear in court and find the funds to challenge any ruling where they do try to apply regulation X. I said to seek legal counsel. However it is also easy for the OP to say they "... they can apply regulation X because Bitcoin is ... (well no he didn't even do that)" and then provide no supporting evidence in any form and back it up with an utterly implausible story. Trolling is easy. |
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>Currency dealer or exchanger
So the US federal government has determined that Bitcoin is a currency? That would be pretty big and AMAZING news. The price is what $20,000 USD per BTC by now right. You have court cases, cites, regulatory memorandums, administrative rulings ... ... ... Definitions matter. The law is a collection of definitions. m) Currency. The coin and paper money of the United States or of any other country that is designated as legal tender and that circulates and is customarily used and accepted as a medium of exchange in the country of issuance. Currency includes U.S. silver certificates, U.S. notes and Federal Reserve notes. Currency also includes official foreign bank notes that are customarily used and accepted as a medium of exchange in a foreign country. http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=d5570d7646c5fc13fe1fa42a61d1dcf1&rgn=div5&view=text&node=31:3.1.6.1.2&idno=31#31:3.1.6.1.2.1.3.1So Bitcoin is: the coin and paper money of the United States? the coin and paper money of any other country? silver certificates? Federal Reserve notes? foreign bank notes? Note this isn't to say the federal government couldn't tomorrow expand the definition of currency and thus the scope of the MSB to include Bitcoin or just about anything however the law in effect today is as written not some hypothetical future law. Money services business. A person wherever located doing business , whether or not on a regular basis or as an organized or licensed business concern, wholly or in substantial part within the United States, in one or more of the capacities listed in paragraphs (ff)(1) through (ff)(7) of this section. This includes but is not limited to maintenance of any agent, agency, branch, or office within the United States.
(1) Dealer in foreign exchange. A person that accepts the currency, or other monetary instruments, funds, or other instruments denominated in the currency, of one or more countries in exchange for the currency, or other monetary instruments, funds, or other instruments denominated in the currency, of one or more other countries in an amount greater than $1,000 for any other person on any day in one or more transactions, whether or not for same-day delivery.
(2) Check casher —(i) In general. A person that accepts checks (as defined in the Uniform Commercial Code), or monetary instruments (as defined at § 1010.100(dd)(1)(ii), (iii), (iv), and (v)) in return for currency or a combination of currency and other monetary instruments or other instruments, in an amount greater than $1,000 for any person on any day in one or more transactions.
(ii) Facts and circumstances; Limitations. Whether a person is a check casher as described in this section is a matter of facts and circumstances. The term “check casher” shall not include:
(A) A person that sells prepaid access in exchange for a check (as defined in the Uniform Commercial Code), monetary instrument or other instrument;
(B) A person that solely accepts monetary instruments as payment for goods or services other than check cashing services;
(C) A person that engages in check cashing for the verified maker of the check who is a customer otherwise buying goods and services;
(D) A person that redeems its own checks; or
(E) A person that only holds a customer's check as collateral for repayment by the customer of a loan.
(3) Issuer or seller of traveler's checks or money orders. A person that
(i) Issues traveler's checks or money orders that are sold in an amount greater than $1,000 to any person on any day in one or more transactions; or
(ii) Sells traveler's checks or money orders in an amount greater than $1,000 to any person on any day in one or more transactions.
(4) Provider of prepaid access —(i) In general. A provider of prepaid access is the participant within a prepaid program that agrees to serve as the principal conduit for access to information from its fellow program participants. The participants in each prepaid access program must determine a single participant within the prepaid program to serve as the provider of prepaid access.
(ii) Considerations for provider determination. In the absence of registration as the provider of prepaid access for a prepaid program by one of the participants in a prepaid access program, the provider of prepaid access is the person with principal oversight and control over the prepaid program. Which person exercises “principal oversight and control” is a matter of facts and circumstances. Activities that indicate “principal oversight and control” include:
(A) Organizing the prepaid program;
(B) Setting the terms and conditions of the prepaid program and determining that the terms have not been exceeded;
(C) Determining the other businesses that will participate in the prepaid program, which may include the issuing bank, the payment processor, or the distributor;
(D) Controlling or directing the appropriate party to initiate, freeze, or terminate prepaid access; and
(E) Engaging in activity that demonstrates oversight and control of the prepaid program.
(iii) Prepaid program. A prepaid program is an arrangement under which one or more persons acting together provide(s) prepaid access. However, an arrangement is not a prepaid program if:
(A) It provides closed loop prepaid access to funds not to exceed $2,000 maximum value that can be associated with a prepaid access device or vehicle on any day;
(B) It provides prepaid access solely to funds provided by a Federal, State, local, Territory and Insular Possession, or Tribal government agency;
(C) It provides prepaid access solely to funds from pre-tax flexible spending arrangements for health care and dependent care expenses, or from Health Reimbursement Arrangements (as defined in 26 U.S.C. 105(b) and 125) for health care expenses; or
(D) ( 1 ) It provides prepaid access solely to:
(i) Employment benefits, incentives, wages or salaries; or
(ii) Funds not to exceed $1,000 maximum value and from which no more than $1,000 maximum value can be initially or subsequently loaded, used, or withdrawn on any day through a device or vehicle; and
( 2 ) It does not permit:
(i) Funds or value to be transmitted internationally;
(ii) Transfers between or among users of prepaid access within a prepaid program; or
(iii) Loading additional funds or the value of funds from non-depository sources.
(5) Money transmitter —(i) In general. (A) A person that provides money transmission services. The term “money transmission services” means the acceptance of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency from one person and the transmission of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency to another location or person by any means. “Any means” includes, but is not limited to, through a financial agency or institution; a Federal Reserve Bank or other facility of one or more Federal Reserve Banks, the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, or both; an electronic funds transfer network; or an informal value transfer system; or
(B) Any other person engaged in the transfer of funds.
(ii) Facts and circumstances; Limitations. Whether a person is a money transmitter as described in this section is a matter of facts and circumstances. The term “money transmitter” shall not include a person that only:
(A) Provides the delivery, communication, or network access services used by a money transmitter to support money transmission services;
(B) Acts as a payment processor to facilitate the purchase of, or payment of a bill for, a good or service through a clearance and settlement system by agreement with the creditor or seller;
(C) Operates a clearance and settlement system or otherwise acts as an intermediary solely between BSA regulated institutions. This includes but is not limited to the Fedwire system, electronic funds transfer networks, certain registered clearing agencies regulated by the Securities and Exchange Commission (“SEC”), and derivatives clearing organizations, or other clearinghouse arrangements established by a financial agency or institution;
(D) Physically transports currency, other monetary instruments, other commercial paper, or other value that substitutes for currency as a person primarily engaged in such business, such as an armored car, from one person to the same person at another location or to an account belonging to the same person at a financial institution, provided that the person engaged in physical transportation has no more than a custodial interest in the currency, other monetary instruments, other commercial paper, or other value at any point during the transportation;
(E) Provides prepaid access; or
(F) Accepts and transmits funds only integral to the sale of goods or the provision of services, other than money transmission services, by the person who is accepting and transmitting the funds.
(6) U.S. Postal Service. The United States Postal Service, except with respect to the sale of postage or philatelic products.
(7) Seller of prepaid access. Any person that receives funds or the value of funds in exchange for an initial loading or subsequent loading of prepaid access if that person:
(i) Sells prepaid access offered under a prepaid program that can be used before verification of customer identification under § 1022.210(d)(1)(iv); or
(ii) Sells prepaid access (including closed loop prepaid access) to funds that exceed $10,000 to any person during any one day, and has not implemented policies and procedures reasonably adapted to prevent such a sale. DISCLAIMER: Anyone looking to start a business, any business should seek legal counsel. However it is my contention that the OP is "full of shit". No regulatory would provide a single sentence answer and certainly wouldn't provide that answer over the phone. The regulatory would be acting as an agent of the United States and any statement would have vast legal implications. It could allow future lawsuits against the federal government or provide protection for a business in the event the federal government sought legal action. It could even rise to criminal entrapment. The simple version is the OP was trolling. Seek your own legal counsel or at the very least do your own personal due diligence. |
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One thing I must say is that Charlie at BitInstant deserves a great deal of praise for getting involved in this issue. Thanks Charlie for all your efforts. +1 although I would say Charlie shouldn't have to clean up MtGox's messes. I feel much better knowing MtGox has the docs although I would feel even better if they updated the ticket indicating that fact. |
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I was looking at starting up a site that would sell bitcoins through credit card transactions as a US based business. Not wanting to run into immediate regulatory problems I gave FinCEN (Financial Crimes Enforcement Network) a call. It took them a couple of weeks to get back to me but the answer was yes that business would be required to register as a Money Service Business.
One can't simply register as "A" Money Service Business. MSB is a catch-all for 10 different types of specific business activity that requires registration. So of course this FinCEN agent told you specifically which type of business activity to indicate on the registration. Right?  |
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I dont sell bitcoins I sell Private keys  . That might not matter if those private keys allow someone to access stored value. Bitcoins aren't stored value. A MtGox code is stored value It is a liability of MtGox Inc (or whatever their name is). Since MtGox has an obligation to make good on that promised stored value it is subject to regulation (strangely MtGox is not a MSB despite issuing stored value codes). Likewise so is an Apple gift card, a prepaid VISA, or even a phone card. They are a promise of future value. Bitcoin private key isn't stored value. Who is the issuer? If I buy $10,000 worth of BTC and Bitcoin collapses who can I claim reimbursement from? Calling a Bitcoin private key stored value would be like calling a 1oz gold coin a store of gold in the amount of one ounce, or a house a store of housing value. |
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Update:
USPS now shows delivered. I guess that can be really good or really bad.
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Now back to Mt. Gox.
Have really still not responded here or to TC directly through support??
I find it a bit odd that DaT hasn't replied, so maybe he got a direct answer out of Gox, and is working with them via pm or email. I just logged out and did something productive because the entire situation makes me more pissed off the more I think about it. Update: * MtGox has not updated my ticket or answered any of the unresolved questions I posed them. * MtGox has no communicated with me by email or PM or any other method. * There have been no further updates to USPS tracking in almost two days now so at best the return is untracked and at worst my $100 docs are in the trash or in the hands of some Japanese Identity Thief. * The website still has the wrong address posted over twenty four hours after I informed them of their negligence. Given it is now 2AM in Japan I don't think there will be any change for a while. I stand by my assertion that their behavior shows incompetence, gross negligence, and an attitude of blatant disrespect towards their customers. |
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Sufficiently aged coins?? That's something totally new for me. Are you talking about the confirmation that the transfer was real, or it's something else? How long is this aging process? Hours? Days? Weeks? Where does it come from? The Satoshi client has rules designed to protect the network from Denial of Service attacks. Most nodes and miners will enforce these rules although they aren't technically a requirement of the protocol. The input (not to be confused with the amount "spent") of a transaction must have roughly 1 Bitcoin day to avoid being considered low priority. Low Priority transactions must include a fee or they will be not be relayed or included in blocks by nodes following the rules used in the Satoshi/Reference client. So "how long" depends on how large & old your transaction inputs are. If we assume you wallet has a single unspent transaction and thus your new transaction will only have a single input: 144 BTC @ 1 confirmation ~= 1 bitcoin day. 12 BTC @ 12 confirmations ~= 1 bitcoin day. 1 BTC @ 144 confirmations ~= 1 bitcoin day. 0.1 BTC @14,400 confirmations ~= 1 bitcoin day. 0.01 BTC @144,00 confirmation ~= 1 bitcoin day. The exact formula is available in the wiki link above but the rule of thumb of "1 bitcoin day" is generally more practical. |
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Well I would add it has been 12 hours since MtGox was informed of the wrong address on their site and the website STILL HAS THE wrong address. I don't know how much louder they can say .... " FUCK YOU CUSTOMERS. You exist to give us money and we have no responsibility to you." I mean Yankee says it isn't gross incompetence well even if that is true (which I adamantly disagree) it certainly is gross negligence when informed on the negligence and you take no action to correct it. When someone reports the fact that you have blatantly wrong information on your site which is causing people to send sensitive personal information to a wrong address, get off your lazy ass and at least DELETE THE FUCKING PAGE. Period.  On edit: Cleaned up some blatantly bad spelling and grammar (bad even for me) Typing while infuriated is harder than it seems. |
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For those who may not be aware MtGox level 3 verification requires a notarized and apostled copy of a government issued ID. In the US the only entity that can attach an apostle seal is the state government (usually the secretary of the state personally) and thus there is a single office for an entire state. So the process is: - Make a photocopy of your government ID (MtGox prohibits blacking out or redacting any info).
- Get it notarized locally.
- Mail it to the state capital.
- Wait a week.
- Have the state mail it back (at your expense).
- Then mail it internationally to Japan.
MtGox website currently reports this is the address for AML documents: https://mtgox.com/forms/verification Mt.Gox AML
Cerulean Tower 15F,
Sakuragaoka-cho 26-1, Shibuya-ku
Tokyo, Japan
150-8512 So I have spent over a $100 and almost two weeks getting this stupid apostled document to them. Thankfully my AML limit will be raised. Lets check USPS this morning. Hopefully the end of a very long, pointless, and expensive process. USPS reports: , , US 10/17/2012 2:57 PM ATTEMPTED DELIVERY ABROAD
, , US 10/17/2012 2:49 PM ATTEMPTED DELIVERY ABROAD  That doesn't look good. My money eating, time wasting docs with sensitive information are taking a joy ride through Tokyo. Let me check with MtGox support; I am sure they have a good reason. Hi, Thank was our old address and I have mentioned below the address to send AML Notarized document's. Please send the documents again to below mentioned address. Mt.Gox AML Round Cross Shibuya 5F 11-6 Shibuya 2-Chome, Shibuya-ku Tokyo, Japan 150-0002 If you have any further enquiries, please do not hesitate to contact Mt.Gox Support either by responding to this email (should the enquiry relate to this ticket) or by using the following support request form: https://mtgox.zendesk.com/entries/20256702-contact-us. Thanks, MtGox.com Team TICKET MARKED CLOSED/RESOLVED.I am beyond furious right now. On edit: 12 hours later ... yup wrong info still on the site. Update: MtGox customer support reports documents have been transferred to the new office. |
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If 0.04 BTC buys an iPhone then it isn't a "small transaction". The nominal amount is irrelevant the purchasing power is what matters.
Often people confused "the minimum required anti-SPAM fee" with "all fees". In time competition for space in the block will drive fees HIGHER than the min required fee and it will be less and less relevant. Still in the interim the min require fee can be lowered. It has been lowered in the past (when BTC went above $20 USD:BTC). Bitcoin likely won't scale well to micro transactions (measured in USD cents) but neither an iPhone or a pizza would be considered a micro transaction.
Remember nominal numbers are simply arbitrary. Say Satoshi had decided that the network would have 2.1 billion BTC and thus the standard block subsidy would be 5,000 BTC. The numbers would be "bigger" but the value of the transactions wouldn't be any more than they are now.
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As for bitcoin they will never be all mined since the network is programmed to increase the money supply as a geometric series, 21 million will not be reached. While 21 million will not be reached the reward will go to 0.00000000 BTC unless there is a protocol change. I can't remember the exact amount but it is just short of 21 million. |
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