This deserves it's own thread.

If BFL is actively working to hide their accounts that means there are a lot of judgements out there...

I have also finally got my refund of $500.

This was after 4 months of waiting. I know not a huge amount, but still.

After 8 weeks of no response from BFL to Amex and my refusing shipments of 11 singles I am happy to say that the chargeback process is complete and I am finally rid of BFL after 8 long months. Good riddance!

Hey guys, Please check out this web form and if you have a few minutes, please fill it out with your experiences with Butterfly Labs Inc, it will be forwarded to the Pennsylvania Attorney General as well as admitted as evidence in my case: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ZRH841TzAhv8Bu7pcEW8id3UMAsO5iDvxUgw0LqZA0k/viewform

I'll be providing updates as the case moves forward.
Thank you

How many thousands of complaints does one have to read and delete or ignore before people get fed up and report it to the FTC or the AG in Kansas.

Remarkably you want to ignore the plight of 100s who have had to fight tooth and nail to get refunds and still 100s more who are still expecting BFL to refund them according to FTC regulations.

Why do you continually ignore the plight of 100s of people?

Obviously you are being "paid" in some manner to defend BFL as no one can be that obtuse or sociopathic when it comes to the financial pain of hundreds who have every right to expect refunds. At this point it there is little evidence to support that BFL is a reputable supplier of ASIC mining equipment. They refused to provide refunds. Their own website is purposefully using double speak and unclear really on when these next units will ship. Coupled with a ALL SALES ARE FINAL stipulation should warn off everyone from anything BFL. There are plenty of other competitors that will ship, that have shipped and who have rightly and honestly given refunds.
 
Sad... just sad. You and Inaba are not going to fool anyone here with this diatribe. BFL will get a 28nm out to the market behind at least 3 or 4 other fabricators given their own timeline.

DO NOT BUY BFL PRODUCTS. SIMPLE SOLUTIONS FOR US ALL. Especially when it won't make a dime.

PRE-ORDER ... Did everyone miss the button?  You won't be getting that gh/s today.

Josh, be careful where you tread. I've warned you once before about spouting off to the wrong people. I am not PuertoLibre or some other BFL troll. I've spent tens of thousands of dollars with your company and have a solid BitcoinTalk reputation. I have resold and mined both your FPGA and ASIC lines, and have made quite a bit of coin doing so. On top of this, I have over $100,000 on the sidelines right now that I am waiting to put back into mining equipment once the difficulty becomes more predictable and your company is in consideration if you are able to actually deliver your 28nm products with a reasonable price, hashrate, and power consumption.

So watch your fucking "facts" when you attempt to call either me or my friend a liar. The fact of the matter is that I coached 1 family member and 4 friends into buying machines of different sizes from your company and on September 19th sent them an email saying to cancel their orders because we were crossing the point of no return on investment. The family member received their miners early enough to sell them for a good profit. Of the friends, one had no problems at all cancelling, one had a problem where after several weeks of harassing Paypal finally had the reversal approved, only to have the account Paypal was drawing on as empty, and the other two have not been able to get a refund, although they haven't been particularly aggressive with paypal either. As such, two of my friends had some amount of dollars sewn up with your company in an interest free loan for some time, and two of them are going to take a large loss, one of them at a time in his life where he really needs a win.

And I hold you responsible due to the complete and utter fabrications called timelines you've delivered to us in the past 17 months. In your quest to dominate the market, you have sucker punched people who are now literally homeless, causing fights between their spouse and them, and adding astounding stress to their lives. And so, I understand that you can easily sit there and type complete lies that ruin people, and as such you think it must be easy for everyone else to just lie.

But I'll tell you now, Josh, I'm no liar. My friend who had this bounced paypal issue is no liar. So, I would get your "cool story" straight before you respond to me again.

5 November 2013

I also did a chargeback through my bank some weeks back.  I would like to toss in the following additional info:

-- The bank immediately credited my account, but they made it clear that this was a courtesy and that the credit is not final until the accused seller responds.  In my case, they could take as long as two billing periods to respond.

-- When I went to Paypal two weeks later and checked the case status (cases were automatically opened when the chargeback occurred), the Paypal status showed "In review."

In other words, it may look like I have got the money but it is not official, Paypal is sitting on their hands "reviewing" the case, and it could be as long as two months until I know if I really have my money back.

In other world news (film at 11):

I also filed complaints with the FTC, the Kansas City BBB, the Kansas Attorney General's office, and the Johnson County District Attorney.  No response on any of those yet.

I have been down the small claims court path in the past, and my own experience is that it is much easier to sue the credit card company under FTC "claims and defenses" than it is to sue the seller.  In this case it is not clear to me whether the seller is Paypal or BFL, since the credit card transaction was paid to Paypal and not BFL.  Perhaps someone with more legal knowledge can clear that up.

If the seller is Paypal, they have legal staff who do their utmost to avoid paying (though there is a wealth of info about how to sue Paypal and win; google it).

If the seller is BFL, collecting on the judgement could be extremely difficult, since the judgement would have to be exported to Kansas and sent to collections there -- and it is not clear that BFL has a financial leg to file a lien against.

If you have to sue your credit card company or Paypal, never sign a "general release."  This frees them from any obligations to you whether past, present or future.  Tell them you will sign a specific release.  And don't sign any confidentiality agreements.  If you win a judgement, you are in the right and they must pay, and cannot put conditions on that payment.

Update 7 Nov 2013

The Paypal status on the chargebacks changed from "In review" to "Closed."  There was no direct indication of whether it was closed by accepting or rejecting the chargeback.  After clicking around a bit, clicking on the "Closed" status produced "There was insufficient evidence to dispute the chargeback", which I take to mean "He's right but we don't like to admit it."

I can imagine the happiness at Paypal HQ when it becomes general knowledge among BFL customers that Paypal actually is eating BFL chargebacks.  Then the chargebacks will really start rolling in.  It would be interesting to know how Paypal will try to get that money back from BFL.  Well, better them doing it than me.

Addendum:  I just checked the order status at BFL, and both of them show "canceled." (sic).  So they do actually know the word, even if they can't spell it.

The bullet run was a dud.

Just to update everyone on where we stand with the Monarch at the moment.

Current chip production has an expected delivery date in early/first half of December. We expect to have chips at that time and hope to have our first units shipped out the door by the end of December. We did not reach our goal of November delivery. Unlike our first generation ASIC devices, we already have the vendors in place and ready to go, along with the substrate design and manufacturing slotted in and geared up. Right now, we are not anticipating any issues but unexpected things do pop up. If they do, I will let people know as soon as I have definitive information regarding that, otherwise we are on target for a December release. If anything changes, I will let everyone know, via this thread, as soon as I have the information.

Let me reiterate that if you are uncomfortable with pre-ordering for cutting edge, custom designed technology and all the risks that it implies, please do not place a pre-order and wait until the products are shipping and available. If you do choose to pre-order, please understand that unforseen problems and delays can and do happen and we will do our best to alert everyone to them when we encounter them and have had time to assess what the impact will be on the timeline.

Our production capacity is geared up and ready to go. With the extreme simplicity of the Monarch compared to our 65nm product line, we do not anticipate any difficulties in getting units built and out the door in a rapid fashion. Compared to our current generation, assuming no parts shortages, we should be able to product more than 1000 Monarchs per day. For reference, the Monarch should use ~12 screws and two discrete parts (board and HSF), compared to even our most simple device, the Jalapeno, which has over 20 discrete parts, assembly is trivial and should pose no issues.

The current expected date for our chips out of the foundry is early December. Obviously nothing will be shipping in November. Projected target is end of December but that is, as usual, subject to change. When I have more info I will share it.

If everyone with an outstanding order refuses to accept the package (no big loss these days). Then that cockroach will be gently squeezed, harder and harder as more and more packages are returned.

What will BFL do, keep the money ? that would be fraud.
Keep re-posting and costing them $$$$ ?
All sales are final,   When they have been delivered !

If you have requested a refund, BFL owes you a refund, if they do not, they are acting unlawfully and when the FTC actually get around to them they will deal with them appropriately. I Hope.

They offered me a 'credit' onto my account for my next order.  However, I pointed out that I do not wish to have a 'credit' or indeed order from them again, and they went silent.

No matter, I have my banks fraud team on the case.

I have it in writing that you have received my money, BFL.  I also have it in writing that you were going to either process me a refund in BTC or bank transfer.  Then, another of your 'colleagues' changed their mind.

Companies don't act the way BFL do.  Fraudsters, however....

You may have a product, and you may have manufacturing difficulties, but that does not excuse you acting like a complete a hole.

Just as an update to this, sometime last week, the account got money in it and my friend was paid. He said that paypal just kept hitting the account (with the subsequent NSF charges, I'm sure) until there was money there.