Funny now imagin if Kosmost shared your thought process. This is not directed just at you but unfortunately your thought process of why should I help if it will help others more than me is unfortunately shared by many and in my opinion goes against what Karma stands for. I truly belive Karma would be way further along if we had more selfless people volunteering their skills, even if on a small bases. A lot of small part time help from many adds up to the expidited accomplishment of projects with less stress and strain on just a small few. But in the end you can't force people to want to help they have to decide on their own if they want to help or not.

Karmashares LLC controls somewhere between 8-12 billion Karma.

sounds like a lot but its really not that much compared to the total amount of Karma in circulation.

what are we upto now? 60 odd billion.. with 92 billion total.

we cannot not do something like this. This would be wrong. Nobody can be excluded from profit sharing because of what he states. Sorry but I am very much against a penalty model.

I suggest you make good on what has been promised instead of trying to go back on it or change it now because you will just leave a bad taste in peoples' mouths. I find it hard to reconcile that you think you can vote to change or take away what somebody else is entitled to.

People should be free to express their opinions without being financially penalised. This is an unmoderated topic so they can do exactly that. If they break the rules of the medium they are posting in the punishment should be contained to it.

Chargin.

not sarcasm.. if you want 12 year olds to use Karma then it has to be easy enough for a 12 year old to understand ... 

sure if the Karmashares members vote on any penalty system then it can be implemented.

personally though I am all for freedom of speech just as I am all for peoples right to use Karma for whatever they want.. just as long as it is sticking to the general theme and doing some kind of good.

i don't believe that people should be penalized for disagreeing with another member, but obviously if they are causing damage to the reputation of Karmashares then the members would and should have some method for dealing with it.

I respect the rights of Karmashares or any other company from doing business in the karma economy any way they see fit and making up any rules they want for their own business. if they want to decide who gets paid and who doesn't from their own money then that's completely fine by me.

I only speak out when people try to tamper with the Karma itself without providing a valid technical reason for doing so.

if you said to me something like "we will confiscate coins from people who insult Karmashares members" then I would get very vocal lolz.

I agree it has to be easy enough for a 12 year old to understand with clearly written rules and instructions and nice pretty pictures to show you where you are on the list.

This is nice. I like your addition and I am for it.

work out a way to use coin age to determine profit shares.

in other words.. the longer you hold the coins in one address the more X can get...

for example.. say 50% of the profits go to people who buy Karmashares... they are the ones who must register and get BTC profits.
and 50% goes to the community based on coin age.. they are the people who get Karma profits..  ie.. no registration necessary and profits get paid as Karma directly to the wallets with the oldest coins.

it doesn't have to be 50% 50% it could be any split that the community decides.

I think if Karmashares was split into two classes of "shares" ..

Class A karmashares for people who buy..
and Class B profit shares for people who hold coins.

Class A can have full voting rights.
Class B has no voting rights and only a share of profits.


I think if you do this then there will always be buying pressure for Karma.. because in order to pay dividends to the coin holders Karmashares will be buying coins on the open market. and in order to get more profits people will be holding coins for as long as they can.


we need to remember that Karmashares LLC is a limited liability company and not a Corpration.. so "Members" can decide who gets paid what and how much.
from my limited understanding of an LLC,  members are also entitled to decide who becomes and member and who doesn't, they can decide to kick anyone out at any time so if they find an exchange has been gaming the system, then there is no problem excluding them from payouts.

I like some of your suggestions for improving the POC model.

But honestly I think the POC model represents too much of a headache.
For instance, how can you really know that a given person has more than 10 million coins in their wallet?
The wallet even has invisible addresses, that I was not even aware some months ago...
You may see a balance of >10 million Karma in your wallet, but maybe not even a single address of yours has more than 10 million (although that would be uncommon it can happen...).

Also I'm not sure if having 30 members is the same as having 300 members (because of POC holders) in the eyes of the regulatory entities.

My thinking process is simple.
If someone wants to be part of the Karmashares then they should buy shares.

work out a way to use coin age to determine profit shares.

in other words.. the longer you hold the coins in one address the more X can get...

for example.. say 50% of the profits go to people who buy Karmashares... they are the ones who must register and get BTC profits.
and 50% goes to the community based on coin age.. they are the people who get Karma profits..  ie.. no registration necessary and profits get paid as Karma directly to the wallets with the oldest coins.

it doesn't have to be 50% 50% it could be any split that the community decides.

I think if Karmashares was split into two classes of "shares" ..

Class A karmashares for people who buy..
and Class B profit shares for people who hold coins.

Class A can have full voting rights.
Class B has no voting rights and only a share of profits.


I think if you do this then there will always be buying pressure for Karma.. because in order to pay dividends to the coin holders Karmashares will be buying coins on the open market. and in order to get more profits people will be holding coins for as long as they can.


we need to remember that Karmashares LLC is a limited liability company and not a Corpration.. so "Members" can decide who gets paid what and how much.
from my limited understanding of an LLC,  members are also entitled to decide who becomes and member and who doesn't, they can decide to kick anyone out at any time so if they find an exchange has been gaming the system, then there is no problem excluding them from payouts.

I agree.
What i would suggest is, like you said, people also have to send an amount of coins to karmashares llc, which is used for projects etc. This amount should not be too high! As people dont want to make a 50 euro investment for maaaaaybe proffits.
So the minimum of karma to hold in a wallet is 75 mil and of that 75 mil, 1.5% of the amount you are holding should be donated. This should be one easy click, as fast as you have this amount your wallet, there should be a possibility to say in that same wallet, i want to participate in the profit sharing, with that agreement, 1.5% will bw withdrawn from your wallet and send to the llc. As of now you participate.

Opinions?

Karma has got a lot going for it, but our one feature which set us apart from every other coin out there is our PoC model. Hollowing out our PoC model like you are suggestion, decreases the appeal to hold some karma for every (small) newcomer.
 
75 million, even at today’s ridiculously low prices, represent an investment of 2/3 btc. That may not be huge for you, but it is to some people. It also limits the amount of people who can benefit. (53 billion free karma outside of the LLC divided by 75 million leaves 706 people, and we all know that number is going to be much lower in reality.)
 
Holding for 6 months instead of 3 isn’t going to be helpful to stop exchanges, they stack everything in cold wallets anyway. Asking for 6 months of nonstop holding is fine for us karma believers, but once again you make it less appealing for someone new to get into karma and it doesn’t fix a problem.

Mandatorily sending some coins to the LLC is something I could see working, all though I don’t agree with your current set up. 5 million for 75 million is way too high, but the same effect could be used by asking for 100k. I however don’t like the position it puts us as an LLC in.
 
I see a general tendency here and on our dedicated forum to get rid of PoC. As I look at it there is only one thing important, and that’s keeping in line with the SEC guidelines. If our current model is indeed failing to (possibly) answer to said guidelines, (can anyone tell me in what way, maybe we can brainstorm for a solution) than we should throw the concept out the door, or like p4r4m0un7 is doing, try to hollow it out until it is once again satisfactory.
Value and price coincide on this matter, which makes it extremely delicate. A diminished PoC model hurts the appeal and value/price of karma, thereby limiting the possibilities of the LLC.  The PoC model and the LLC are interdependent and I hope this is something everyone will keep this in mind when discussing.

I am also proposing a penalty model to be discussed and voted. You all know that I have big mouth and sometimes I don't think before I speak and because of this maybe I have insulted someone. This is why I find myself a proper guy to propose a penalty model . You all know that we have Code of conduct and everyone should stick to it, no matter who he is or think he is. Me, personally, I often dream that I am Yoda or at least Luke. But when I wake up, it seems that I can not move objects with a look at it. So, I suggest that if somebody insult Karma team member, a vote to be made in our forum. If the vote decides, this guy should be removed from profit sharing list for let's say 3 months. The vote can decide penalty only with at least 10 votes and 3/4 of the votes. This will mean that there are enough karmashare members that think somebody's behavior is not the Karma way.
Let's brainstorm on this. Shall we?

You do realise 6 months is a very long time.
When i first bought karma i did not plan to keep it for 6 months to be honest with you. But now i do but i am just like 2% of everyone who bought karma. So the grow a good stack of people willing to do this 6 months is too long. In my opinion

This is to continue the discussion about the PoC model. If I missed similar idea, please excuse me. I think that PoC model should be improved in some way. If it is possible, it should be kept, but changed. I suggest to raise the holding period to 6 months and 75 million coins (yes, raise). And also to assure that no exchange will take advantage of other people coins, I suggest that investment of 5 million KARMA should be send to dedicated address at least 3 months before any deal is announced or closed - we can discuss this term. This address could be same as KARMASHARES address - open for everyone to look at it. This way anyone can see which address is eligible for any profit. First see it at this special list and then look at the block explorer to see when the transaction was made. You know that I am strong supporter of the small investors and miners, but I have learned some lessons from the recent events. This 5 million coins can never be withdrawn and also can be used for Karma funding.

If such decision is taken, I am willing to update such list. Not holding the coins of course, just updating the list.