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1861  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: A rolling root to solve Bitcoin's scalability problem? on: March 06, 2014, 04:04:32 AM
Quote
The fact is that ancient blocks, at any given point in time, are already highly trusted by the network. If they weren't, Bitcoin would simply not work.
There is already "trust" in the Bitcoin network, for these ancient block
Every node verifies the history, this is how you can be sure that claims like "satoshi premined a billion bitcoins and is secretly waiting to spend them" cannot be true. We do not trust, and cannot trust— because it would be trust founded on nothing.

Except your own Wiki says the opposite:

Quote
Only a small number of archival nodes need to store the full chain going back to the genesis block. These nodes can be used to bootstrap new fully validating nodes from scratch but are otherwise unnecessary.

From: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability#Storage

Notice how nowhere in that section does it say anything close to "Every node verifies the history.", and instead refers to "archival nodes". It also says "Only a small number" of them are needed.


Quote
I think you should stop using the word trustless while you have multiple bitcoin developers telling you that you do not understand it.

The way my mind works is that I do not accept BS from anyone. It doesn't matter how large an angry mob gets if what it is saying is complete nonsense.

I've addressed every objection to this proposal, and have received confirmation on it now from two people who seem to know something about Bitcoin: Realpra, and a friend of mine whom I know is intelligent (works on SocialVPN). And while not a vote of recognition, one of the Bitcoin is Vulnerable authors didn't say that the idea wouldn't work when I shared it with him, but said "i'd feel nostalgic if i had to part with the genesis block." Tongue

Edit: I called it 99.9% trustless, not 100%.

No you just lack the knowledge to understand what you are reading.

As pointed out the wiki is simply public docs.  It is one possible way to deal with scalability.  Anything in the wiki which goes beyond the actual current protocol should be treated as an opinon.

However even if the cited section was implemented it would still be trustless.   Full nodes would still maintain a pruned copy of the blockchain going all the way back to the genesis block.  An unpruned copy (the archive node) is not required to validation transactions or create new blocks.   Nobody needs to trust the archive nodes.  

Your "solution" (and I use the term lightly) would break that trustless relationship between nodes.  

So either you are trolling for trolling sake or you are genuinely interested but lack the basic knowledge.  It would be like someone without any higher mathematics trying to understand how public key cryptography works and coming up with "enhancements".   If you aren't trolling, or just looking to debate to feel important ... then stop trying to fix Bitcoin before you undertstand Bitcoin.  Take a couple weeks starting with the whitepaper, the wiki and then the source code.  

Nobody is saying a ledger type system is impossible but it a non-trivial problem.  If you think you found a trivial solution to a non-trivial problem in a few minutes ... you haven't.

OK, if this is how you guys discuss ideas, no thank you, I've had enough. I'll reply to constructive comments that actually address the merits of the proposal only.

You haven't provided a proposal.
1862  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Safety revision after the Hacks going around these days on: March 05, 2014, 11:36:28 PM
It is debt.  It isn't a loan but it is a liability.  Optimally the assets and liabilities balance but when the thief (or insider) takes the assets all that is left is the liabilities.  If the company can repay that liability out of its own pocket well they can make you whole but more times then not the loss is far greater than their ability to repay and depositors are left holding worthless IOUs.
1863  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Has anyone tried selling on ebay since they created the new VC category? on: March 05, 2014, 11:31:46 PM
PayPal disputes are 45 days however the customer go above PayPal to the CC issuer and they have 180 days.  You will almost certainly lose everything, end up with a negative balance, a frozen paypal account, and friendly phone calls from PayPal's collection department.

Scammers may be crooks but they aren't dumb.  Once they find a mark they aren't going to chase him (you) off by opening a dispute right away.  They will let you create multiple transactions and then all the chargebacks will come in almost all at once.  You go to sleep feeling good about your business skills and wake up in the morning to find out 90%+ of the transactions are all being disputed.   Scammers don't want a single small sale they want to get you for every single coin you own before pulling the trigger on the scam.

It is a road to ruin but as long as you go in with eyes wide open.
1864  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: How are rejected shares related to mining intensity? on: March 05, 2014, 11:23:13 PM
So if that's correct - I conclude that for people like me, who are mining with high intensity and who are therefore taking a higher risk of getting rejects, pool-mining a coin with a higher difficulty (more time until a block is found) are better of, cause it results in fewer rejects.

Correct?

No it is irrelevant.  Difficulty doesn't affect the time between block changes.


Quote
When setting a worker's  diff in a pool to a low valule, let's say 32, the number of accepted shares is way higer then with a worker diff of 1024. So I assume you get not only paid for the number of accepted shares but also the size of the batch. Otherwise all people would be mining at diff 32, right?

Share difficulty, min pool share difficulty, and block difficulty all have nothing to do with intensity (batch size).

Intensity defines how long the card will run (in hashes) before it ends the batch, drops off results, and picks up new instructions.

You are right (but using wrong words) in that pools pay based on the total difficulty of the shares accepted not the raw number of shares.  A miner with lower difficulty will produce more shares but each share is worth less and a miner running at higher difficulty will produce less shares but each share is worth more.   As an analogy someone depositing one $100 bill into the register gets no more credit than someone else depositing one hundred $1 bills in the register. This has nothing to do with intensity though. 

1865  Other / Meta / Re: Site's Security Grade: A- on: March 05, 2014, 11:16:33 PM
How come?

IMO there'd be a much higher chance of it causing problems than preventing an attack.

Try to think of an attack that the forum's current HSTS setup wouldn't protect against.

How would it cause a problem?  If you don't have the ability to operate using https you simply shouldn't be operating (this goes for any site which needs to secure communication between server and client).   If something results in you losing your TLS cert for a period of time it would be better to not operate the site until it is restored.   If anything the only useful value for HSTS would be infinite (i.e. NEVER UNTIL THE END OF TIME CONNECT TO THIS DOMAIN INSECURELY) but since that is not an option a very long HSTS value is used as a proxy.
1866  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Kimoto Gravity Well Difficulty Adjustment for Bitcoin on: March 05, 2014, 11:11:32 PM
Bitcoin isn't experiencing a sharp drop in hashing power.   Bitcoin is a network of anonymous peers.  There is no method to compute the exact hashrate, none.  It is impossible.  The hashrate shown is an ESTIMATE and the margin of error on the 8 hour moving average is huge (something on the order of 20%+).  

You are simply looking at noise.  


At most the hashrate declined by maybe 0.5%.  In reality that is still within the margin of error on the 3 day average so it is far more likely the network is still growing at 1% to 1.5% per day.

The only scenario where a change in the difficulty function would be of any value, is a scenario where Bitcoin is likely dead anyways. If the hashrate drops 80%+ in a two week period there probably is a larger macro economic reason, one that can't be solved by simply adjusting the difficulty faster.   

You are proposing a hard fork on a core element of the protocol for something which isn't required.  The chance of it happening is ~0%.  Hard forks simply don't happen in a consensus network for all but the most critical of changes.   If ECDSA is compromised we may see a hard fork, if there is a bug which allows someone to make a billion bitcoins out of thin air we may see a hard fork.  Anything less severe than that just has no chance of reaching a consensus.  Still if you want to beat your head against the wall you wouldn't be the first.  


1867  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: How would incorrect number of decimals be handled? on: March 05, 2014, 10:59:23 PM
(Say we keep it as integer but 0 becomes = 0.001 satohis (since few will have even 1 btc by then)
OR we switch to some non-int format like string... impossible to know)

A string is just a sequence of 8 bit values--same as an integer, it's all about how you interpret it. While it is easy to say you can increase the divisibility of bitcoin, it would involve a consensus on reinterpreting the value of "1" as not meaning "a satoshi" but "something less than a satoshi". This will be very difficult to do if there is a proliferation of embedded devices. Alternatively, a maximum transaction amount could be set (something far beyond any probable transaction size), and then anything above that is less than an original satoshi. It still requires reinterpretation, but it does not explicitly break backwards compatibility.

Bitcoin supports versioning of tx and blocks.  If there are future breaking changes they would be new versions.   ver1 transactions and ver2 blocks (the current right now) will never have a breaking change.  It is possible that at some point in the future ver 1 transactions and ver 2 blocks will no longer be supported but they will remain EXACTLY as they are now until the day (block) they are no longer supported.  Bitcoin is a network of consensus it simply can't work any other way.
1868  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: How would incorrect number of decimals be handled? on: March 05, 2014, 10:57:09 PM
Amounts in transactions are integer numbers of satoshis. It is impossible to represent 0.5 or 0.1 satoshi.

Onkel Paul
Hmm yes you have a point, even if it changed and my device could be told I would have to guess the exact format used in the future 10-20 years in advance.

(Say we keep it as integer but 0 becomes = 0.001 satohis (since few will have even 1 btc by then)
OR we switch to some non-int format like string... impossible to know)

Transaction and block formats supporting versioning.

The current version for transactions is ver 1.   When creating a tx the wallet has to specifically set the version number.   If the the tx format was changed it would have a new version.   If the change was backwards compatible then ver1 transactions would still be valid (i.e. wallets can create either version 1 or version 2 addresses).  If the change was not backwards compatible then a version 1 transaction would simply be invalid and dropped by the network (i.e. after block X only ver2 transactions are valid).

In the former your device would continue to work although it could not take advantage of the newer ver2 transactions.  In the later scenario your device would be obsolete if it couldn't be reprogrammed.


The scary thing is you don't already know this.   This (and knowing that the network records values in integers as satoshis) is kinda Bitcoin Developer 101 level stuff.
1869  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Shit Bitcoin Fanatics Say on: March 05, 2014, 09:56:33 PM
Hilarious.  My wife can never see this because she is going to say "that is so you, especially the part at the end".
1870  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: A rolling root to solve Bitcoin's scalability problem? on: March 05, 2014, 08:29:33 PM
If you are a major exchange and are making $1B a month in profit (and you would if Bitcoin is so huge it has higher tx volume them VISA) do you think it might be worth it to pay $1,000 a year in additional storage cost to add some drives to the SAN?  I think it might be.

With that much data, what do you think would be a reasonable estimate of the disk I/O?

True VISA scale (i.e 5,000 tps on blockchain)?

Figure 5,000 transactions per second.  Average tx is 400 bytes that is maybe 2MB/s (16 Mbps) sustained to write to the disk.  Average block would be 600 * 5,000 * 400 / 1024^3 = 1.2 GB.  So pretty much nothing.  Now to validate txs requires reading the outputs from the UXTO so maybe double that in terms of random reads.  Still we are talking a tiny fraction of the IO that even high end disks (to say nothing of SANs) can handle today.

Everyone thinks of disk first because it is the most obvious but in my analysis of the resource requirements I see it as the least critical bottleneck for full nodes.  If I had to rank them it would be node bandwidth (especially for residential connections), then memory, then computing power, and way back in last place would be disk capacity and speed.

To give you an example of why memory would be more of an issue, is that latency for UXTO lookups will start to become excessive.  It may be less of an issue for non-miners (who can take 5 to 10 seconds to validate a block) but miners will want to validate potential blocks very rapidly.  To avoid the slow expensive pulls from disk, if possible one would want the entire UXTO and memory pool (list of unconfirmed transactions) in memory.  The only thing being written to disk would be the blocks.  The memory pool shouldn't be a problem even if it grew to 30x the size of the average block we are talking <64GB (which sounds like a lot but consider the doubling effect of Moores law for a decade or two).  The UXTO would be larger however the good news is the UXTO grows more linearly than the blockchain or tx volume.  

However eventually it may not be possible to have the entire UXTO in memory.  What I would consider an interesting project would be to design a probabilistic model which determines how likely an output would be involved in a transaction in the near future.   For example spam outputs which are uneconomical to spend would be less likely to be included and could be dropped from the UXTO in-memory cache (if they are used it would just need pulled from disk).  Other examples of low probability outputs would be "coins" with very old age, outputs to addresses which have a large number of other older outputs but few spends (probably paper or storage wallet).  Some true statistical modeling of the blockchain could provide better insight those were just some examples.  The client could score outputs on the likelihood it would be spent soon and the highest tx kept in the in-memory cache.

I am not convinced Bitcoin (at least on blockchain) will ever become that large but if it does clients will adapt to meet the needs of full nodes.  The protocol currently is rather inefficient in terms of resources (other than disk).  Tx are double verified, block messages include the full transaction (which most nodes already have) there will be a lot of room for optimization as transaction volume grows.


1871  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Safety revision after the Hacks going around these days on: March 05, 2014, 08:08:02 PM
You can add #0 to your list.

Bitcoin Axiom #0 - If you do not have the private keys for your bitcoins, then you have no bitcoins.

If you deposit your bitcoins with an exchange then although their site may display an amount of bitcoins what you have is an IOU for a certain amount of bitcoins.   An IOU is a form of debt, it only has value as long as it is honored.  A significant portion of debt is never repaid.  Bitcoin has no counterparty risk, a bitcoin IOU does have counterparty risk.
1872  Other / Off-topic / Re: Going to Decrypt my Wife's Private Keys multiple times to Generate a New Address on: March 05, 2014, 07:58:25 PM
Going to Decrypt my Wife's Private Keys multiple times to Generate a New Address

Hopefully BTC reaches 5k this year so that when the new addresses are generated they will already have a decent amount deposited into them.



Nothing about that post made any sense but go ahead and have fun.
1873  Economy / Economics / Re: Is Cryptographic Trust Enough? on: March 05, 2014, 07:05:06 PM
Bitcoin the currency and protocol has never been attacked.  I mean it is like saying I saw a 7-11 get robbed so obviously there is a critical flaw in the dollar.  People like to point out that banks are insured however the cash in your wallet isn't insured.   The dollars you give to a ponzi operator aren't insured either (dollar based ponzi schemes defrauded investors of $50B last year).  

MFGlobal defrauded investors of roughly the same amount as MTGox.  Both were bad companies where depositors misplaced their trust.  Don't put your Bitcoins in the hands of someone else and then be surprised when they "disappear".

The solution isn't in an improved protocol because the problem isn't with the protocol.  The problem is human both bad humans and humans who make bad (risky) decisions.   The solution is in better education and users demanding more from service providers and merchants.

As for your grandma ... give it twenty years.  
1874  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin protocol can be hacked now! on: March 05, 2014, 04:04:21 PM
Do you think it's enough to have the bitcoin wallets in a server you physically control or should also the website be located inhouse to prevent thieves from stealing bitcoins?

Server you control physically is sufficient in most cases.  Most companies don't have the resources to build a datacenter to house their server.  Going with a tier 1 datacenter, purchasing a locked cage or cabinet, and starting with bare metal server(s) provides a high barrier.  Now if you service grows to the point you are processing billions a year well then moving servers (or at least hot wallet hardware) "in house" might be something to consider.  

We use a private locked cabinet with access control in a major datacenter.  No datacenter employees have need or ability to login to our hardware.  The OS was installed clean onto bare metal we own so there are no "super admin" accounts that we don't know about.  IPMI and power cycle PDUs have made it possible to do a lot more remotely these days (even BIOS access and remote media for installing OS is possible).  Good secure chassis with intrusion detection are a good secondary line of defense to ensure the employees don't have access to the hardware internals.  We disable USB in BIOS.  Since disks are designed to be hotswapped, encrypted disks (and backups) are a requirement to ensure information isn't physically stolen by datacenter employee.    A good datacenter should have no problems shipping replaced/dead disks back to you to verify serial numbers against inventory control.

The one bad thing about IPMI, is it is usually very poorly implemented from a security standpoint.  It doesn't really matter the vendor, most have dozens of long running vulnerabilities.  The IPMI ports should never be public facing and instead be behind a dedicated vpn hardware firewall (i.e establish vpn tunnel to firewall, authenticate, and then gain access to the IPMI network).

The web server is going to be the most vulnerable point of any system; it is by definition public facing with open access.  For that reason that server should only be used as a webserver.  The database, bitcoind connectivity (even for just listening wallets), remote WAN login access, backups, etc should be on a different server which has no public access.  Most datacenter can provide a VLAN on a switch for private connectivity but switches are cheap so I like to buy and install our own switch in the cabinet.  Of course all this is just the outer wall, intrusion detection software, monitoring, and vulnerability scanning should be part of the picture too.

If all that sounds hard well that is why the service is operating for a profit.  Users should start to demand more from their bitcoin service companies and not accept that they are uncompensated investors (if exchange does good real owners profit, if exchange does bad depositors lose everything).
1875  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin protocol can be hacked now! on: March 05, 2014, 03:34:12 PM
Most vps are run on a physical server that hosts many vps and therefore most vps cannot handle that much traffic before it becomes a problem and crashes the vps constantly.

That is the least of your problems.  Some very large bitcoin services have lost some very large amounts of bitcoins because they were running on a VPS.  Google Bitcoin linode hack.
1876  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin protocol can be hacked now! on: March 05, 2014, 03:12:04 PM
if a hacker has access to your system, why bother with that sophistication, just steal the wallet.dat
...
That's what I was wondering.  Huh

The operator is stupid enough to run a hot wallet on a VPS.  The attacker may not have access to the wallet.dat or file system but can monitor the CPU and manipulate its operation from the hypervisor.
1877  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin protocol can be hacked now! on: March 05, 2014, 03:10:13 PM
When you find the flaws, when you fix the flaws, you create a more secure protocol, and you create a more secure environment for the community to thrive

This is a side channel attack.  There is no flaw to find or fix in the protocol.  It says that if the attacker can monitor and manipulate the CPU then they can steal the private key.  The fix is to make sure the attacker can't monitor or manipulate the CPU.  If almost all circumstances if the attacker can do this he can simply steal the wallet.dat (which is much easier).  

The one exception would be idiot service operators running bitcoin services in "the cloud" or on VPS.  Of course there have been at least two dozen thefts in the past related to compromises of VPS (including linode).  Virtual environment will NEVER be secure for bitcoin services.  OpenSSL may eventually make this attacker harder to pull off but even then the VPS will remain a source of hundreds of attack vectors.

If you use a bitcoin related service (exchange, eWallet, mining pool, etc) ask the service operator if they are stupid enough to run it on a VPS? If the answer is yes run, run, run for the exits because it is only a matter of when not if they eventually lose all your bitcoins.  This technical vulnerability is the least of your worries.  There are attacks which are a magnitude easier (including simply logging in with the super admin/root account and stealing the coins).
1878  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin protocol can be hacked now! on: March 05, 2014, 02:56:33 PM
The private key of bitcoin could be recovered by flush+reload method. it seems to be true.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zmgiq/new_side_channel_attack_that_can_recover_private/

You do realize this requires the attacker to have access to the CPU.  If the attacker has access to do the low level hardware you system is likely rooted, and he is reading your passphrase as you type it.

The one noteable exception is this makes VPS even less secure.  They already were a horrible idea for Bitcoin security but I guarantee you at least one "professional" bitcoin site is running on a VPS right now. Information security begins with physical security and you can't have physical security inside another persons vault (your VPS running on their hardware).  Title should be changed to "Using a VPS means you can be hacked (by this and countless other attack vectors)".
1879  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin won't ever become Mainstream. It's just a Prototype. on: March 05, 2014, 02:46:21 PM
TCP/IP will never go mainstream.  It is just a prototype.  The idea that a protocol that was state of the art in the 1970s will be used by billions of people in the 2010s is just stupid.  By 1979 the internet hadn't become mainstream so obviously it was never going to happen.  Something more efficient than the internet will come along and we will use that instead.  

So you want to go that road huh? Compare Bitcoin to any other successfull sites since the year 200. I could name Facebook, Myspace, Twitter, Spotify, the list goes on etc etc and want to know what all those sites have in common? They became successfull within a very short time and Mainstream. Bitcoin is supposed to be this new, next generation, of money handling, but has is a very long way off being adopted by the general public, who aren't programmers and tech guys. It's simply never going to get any higher in terms of popularity, too many flaws.

Bitcoin isn't a website, it is a protocol.   Facebook, myspace, and twitter are still running on the flawed and ancient protocol that was around at the start of the internet.  

The internet circa 1969


The internet circa 1977


That is right it took almost a decade to build it out to just a couple dozen nodes.

The internet circa 2000
http://mountpeaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/1069646562-lgl-2d-4096x40962.png
1880  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin won't ever become Mainstream. It's just a Prototype. on: March 05, 2014, 02:39:16 PM
TCP/IP will never go mainstream.  It is just a prototype.  The idea that a protocol which was state of the art in the 1970s, will still be used by billions of people in the 2010s is just stupid.  By 1979 the internet hadn't become mainstream so obviously it was never going to happen.  Something more efficient (and totally incompatible) will come along and we will use that instead.
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