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921  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 04, 2014, 04:57:32 PM
Guys, we look prime for a big dump on Houbi. The buy pressure keeps dwindling and the down trend has been re established for over a week now.  His market will most likely drift until news comes out this week. But I think we test 2555 and lower VERY soon.

Odd time for a dump, slap-bang in the middle of a 3-5 day holiday. Do you think they'll hold off dumping until Tuesday, or are you thinking it's more imminent than that?
922  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: House of Windsor - Commonwealth of Nations - Who decides? on: May 04, 2014, 03:33:22 PM
Sorry for the title - Been watching too much Game of Thrones  Cheesy

I remember when the EUR was introduced, at the time sparked many debates here in the UK about whether we should change our GBP to EUR, along with gradual acceptance from France, Spain, Northern Ireland to name but a few. But who (which group) actually gave the go-ahead to change their fiat currency to EUR? Certainly wasn't put to public vote.

Queen Elizabeth II is head of state for her sovereignty, known as the Commonwealth realm.

I think this includes 16 Countries and her face is printed on something like 20+ different fiat currencies. So my point is, if we get her in a room and make her watch The Rise and Rise of Bitcoin, will she have the power to make BTC the currency of the Commonwealth?

The Commonwealth includes countries like India where the Queen isn't Head of State, and even countries like Mozambique which have never been ruled by a UK monarch. That aside, probably not - in theory the Queen is Head of State and has executive power (which she does sometimes use); in practice most executive power rests with the governments.

Put another way -  can you imagine how please Canadians would be if the Queen told them they had to drop the Canadian dollar in favour of... well, anything!
923  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: May 04, 2014, 03:12:40 PM
Here is one: they are traders (possibly unexperienced) who bought at much higher price, say 4000„.  They have been waiting patiently for the price to go up again to those levels.  But now that the the future of Chinese exchanges is uncertain they got desperate and are clumsily trying to push the price up with those fake bid walls.  But they cannot just leave the bids there, since they definitely do not want to buy.  So they must remove them whenever they have to leave the computer for any reason.

Why would they not be able to send them to their wallet and sell some other time when price is better then?

Sell them where? And that is IF the price will be better.  Grin

Any exchange outside the PRC? As I understand it, China's exchange controls are one-way.
924  Economy / Economics / Re: Would it be possible to create a distributed bitcoin price stabilizer? on: May 04, 2014, 02:48:50 PM
You can't decide what the price should be, the market will decide it naturally and more efficiently

Market making isn't "deciding what the price should be", it's participation in the market. It's purpose is to provide liquidity and reduce volatility. It's no different to a buyer and a seller placing bids and asks, except it's one entity placing the bids and asks, hoping to profit from the spread as a reward for providing liquidity.
925  Economy / Economics / Re: Would it be possible to create a distributed bitcoin price stabilizer? on: May 04, 2014, 01:21:30 PM
The system eludes coordination to some extent
Hard to do for much the same reason that it is hard to manipulate

Thinking aloud here, but it reminds me of block adjustments: difficulty remains constant for a set number of blocks, then adjusts. In this case bid price and ask price would both be fixed for a predetermined period, and then adjusts (it might also be desirable to adjust the spread). I'm not sure this would work within the system, but might instead be an external layer that references the Bitcoin protocol (there might even be multiple external systems of market makers, somewhat like the market making system NASDAQ employ where there are multiple, competing market makers).
926  Economy / Economics / Re: Would it be possible to create a distributed bitcoin price stabilizer? on: May 04, 2014, 01:06:18 PM
If the price should go up a lot, the money stabilising the price lower than what it should be will be gone rapidly and the same is true if the price need to go down a lot

The goal is to stabilise, not fix, so if the price moves rapidly the market makers would adjust their bids/asks. The price is still able to move, but spikes are reduced.
927  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Revised Poll (more choices): What should 100 satoshis be called? on: May 03, 2014, 06:46:56 PM
Informally, "k" is a common nickname for thousand but most currencies predate metric (and even SI). One interesting exception is "cent" - the revolutionary zeal in the new-born US presumed that the metric system would catch on, and the proposed pefix for hundreds - "centi-" - was adopted for the hundredth division of a dollar - a year or two, I think, before France adopted metric.

The dollar is broken into cents, not centidollars.  The cent symbol is ¢ rather than c$.

The Euro had the opportunity to be a metric currency, but it isn't.

Dollar: Yes, that's right. This predated the formal adoption of the metric system, and the centuries of revision that have followed. The first version of the metric system, the system adopted by France, used 1s and hundreds (an "are" was (is still) 100 square metres, for example).

Euro: the Euro uses cents (or "cent", according to Brussels) as the hundredth division of the Euro). But since the US dollar every currency has moved to a 10^x system - GBP was the last hold-out so far as I know.
928  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Revised Poll (more choices): What should 100 satoshis be called? on: May 03, 2014, 06:31:43 PM
Is there anywhere else in the field of money that people use SI prefixes?

I have never heard of a kilodollar, megadollar, millidollar, etc.  Does any country use SI prefixes for their money?

Informally, "k" is a common nickname for thousand but most currencies predate metric (and even SI). One interesting exception is "cent" - the revolutionary zeal in the new-born US presumed that the metric system would catch on, and the proposed pefix for hundreds - "centi-" - was adopted for the hundredth division of a dollar - a year or two, I think, before France adopted metric.
929  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Revised Poll (more choices): What should 100 satoshis be called? on: May 03, 2014, 06:24:09 PM
It's going to simply be called "bit". Example: "That'll be 4550 bits for your coffee."

http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/02/bitpay-bitcoin-and-where-to-put-that-decimal-point.html

I don't know whether BitPay will succeed with this, but this is the way to gather real consensus and bring about change - if it's a popular change with BitPay users, those users will help spread it, other merchants will start using it.
930  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: 1,000,000 bits = 1 bitcoin. Future-proofing Bitcoin for common usage? VOTE on: May 03, 2014, 02:09:18 PM
can we all realise mBTC and uBTC are not FUTURE PROOFING.. they are just temporary. we need to think about FUTURE-PROOFING

so please get with the program.. the mbtc and ubtc arguments are futile and repeated to death, move on and evolve passed the old stuff and think of the future..

so lets think about RELEVANT names for 100sat's that have NOT been used, but show some relevance to bitcoin ecosystem

Wait - µBTC is 100 Satoshi (I guess really I should say 100 Satoshi is 1 µBTC, since we started with BTC and Satoshi came later). So if µBTC isn't future-proof, then new-name-for-100-satoshi won't be either, surely?
931  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Yeah, it's about the Bitcoin symbol. on: May 03, 2014, 12:27:26 PM
I'd like to suggest the symbol Ƶ for "100 satoshis"

Z?

Seems you have some agenda with your zibcoin?



It's not an alt-coin, it's a proposed name for 100 Satoshis. (Of all the BTC renaming proposals it's actually one of the better ones, because some thought has gone into what would need to be done, etc).
932  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: 1,000,000 bits = 1 bitcoin. Future-proofing Bitcoin for common usage? VOTE on: May 03, 2014, 11:35:21 AM
Agreed, it's non-trivial.

The bitcoin situation here is rather different; it's not about specialists vs generalists, it's about money, something that should be readily understood and utilised by both specialists and generalists, for all age groups and nationalities and as many levels of numeracy as possible.



We're all specialists and generalists - I an expert (at least I think I am) on what my neighbours and co-workers can understand; I know nothing about you, your neighbours or co-workers' preferences or abilities. My point is that we don't know - we can't know at anything other than a basic level - what will be most readily understood and utilised by everyone else. What's simple for you and me to understand will not necessarily be readily understood by someone else - 10^3 seems simple to me because I grew up with thousands, millions, and billions, with kilometres and millimetres and terabytes. But that's not universal; there are counting systems that use other exponents, even systems that mix their exponents. Even within the Bitcoin ecosystem there are already different systems, systems that in some cases have evolved organically. My way is not any more valid than their way. I'm (currently) free to use whatever system suits me (and, to be honest, the system that suits me most varies with whatever activity I'm engaged in - when (!) I buy an island I won't be using Satoshis or µBTC.

The OP's proposal may well lead to greater understanding of Bitcoin within a group of people. What concerns me is that this group is undefined and - more importantly - the disadvantages to other groups (of a change) are not being considered. I got involved in Bitcoin because it held out the promise of freedom from centralised control (this was a few years after centralised control over my finances became a major issue in the country I was living in). I see this issue as seeking to impose (by us) change over the wider community, in the name of convenience. Just because I have a chance to hold the whip doesn't make it any more palatable.
933  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: 1,000,000 bits = 1 bitcoin. Future-proofing Bitcoin for common usage? VOTE on: May 03, 2014, 10:38:13 AM
Honestly? I suspect it's bikeshedding
with all due respect, since you think it's trivial why do you keep posting?

Because it has non-trivial ramifications.

The classic (at least in IT) example is of a nuclear power plant where the board comprises a few specialist (nuclear physicists) and many generalists (administrators, managers, etc). Discussion about important issues -  safety, etc - is edged out by discussion about less important issues. That's certainly a risk here, but far more importantly is - if the generalists succeed in forcing change it will impact on the specialists - and the community at large.
934  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What are the biggestest threats to Bitcoin? on: May 03, 2014, 10:31:40 AM
Quantum computers? Bugs in the code? Centralized mining?

IIRC, quantum computing can only bring 256-bit bitcoin private key to be "as safe as" 128-bit.

There are many different wallet clients out there, and people are using different versions. Bugs in the code may affect some people, but probably not for the majority.

I think centralized mining could be a big problem, especially if we have some "bad" big miners trying to double-spend their own transactions.

Can anyone confirm or share info on the quantum computing part?
I can't but I can say that if quantum computing became a credible threat to Bitcoin it would also be a threat to all online commerce. The quantum computing argument is a bit like saying "a global nuclear war would bring down every node!" It's true, but misses the point that we would no longer care.
935  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: 1,000,000 bits = 1 bitcoin. Future-proofing Bitcoin for common usage? VOTE on: May 03, 2014, 09:57:03 AM
We already have an established smaller unit that everyone agrees on - Satoshi. Just build up from that, ksat = 1,000 sat, msat= 1,000,000 sat. People are already familiar with using thousands, and millions in relation to money, in many currencies everydays prices are already in 1000s (argentine peso, yen).

Using 'milli' and 'micro' for money is unfamiliar and confusing to ordinary people. especially micro with the added μ u confusion.

What's the problem with this approach?

Honestly? I suspect it's bikeshedding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law_of_triviality. We want Bitcoin to succeed, we want to help it succeed, and we instinctively feel that the way we can make that happen is by "making it easier for other people". Tinkering with convention seems much easier than starting a BTC business, building an innovative platform on top of Bitcoin, etc. If I wanted to start a BTC business I'd have to come up with a business plan, find investors, purchase equipment etc. But this - all I need to do is have an opinion. I don't even need to research the demographic I believe I'm "helping".

This is my concern with this issue. I have no idea what works for anyone but me. None of us do (well, obviously some of us have some - limited - idea about our customers. But hopefully you get my point). Our preferences, or what we think others might prefer, won't work for many people - perhaps not even the people we think we're helping. My solution is to leave people alone, and give them the freedom to adopt whatever system works for them - Satoshis, kiloBTC, whatever.
936  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: 1,000,000 bits = 1 bitcoin. Future-proofing Bitcoin for common usage? VOTE on: May 03, 2014, 09:17:07 AM

And presumably that's why wine (say) is sold in 750ml bottles, as opposed to 0.75l bottles. But that doesn't seem to be an argument in support of moving the decimal point 2, 3 or 6 places.
You might not see bottles in the real world labelled 0.75l but here in Bitcoinland we sell wine in 0.00075kl bottles.


I'll take your word for it! And - as ludicrous as 0.00075kl sounds (I prefer 750µl - it tastes better Wink ) - this is a good thing. Individually, as BTC users, merchants, exchanges - we can choose the system that suits us. Right now. Some people use "Satoshi". Some people use µBTC. Some people use mBTC. Some people use BTC. And some people won't get out of bed for less than kBTC. All of this is possible right now. If my region/country uses 10000s instead of 1000s - that works too.

Put another way - whatever system we have, whatever system we adopt, it will confuse some people, delight others, and be irrelevant to still more. Given that there's a cost to change (time, resources, risk of confusion, etc) if we want to change the existing system we should be very clear about who will be affected, and in what ways. Too much of this discussion is based round "people" finding the current system confusing. It is not at all clear to me who these people are, and whether the benefits they'd gain would outweigh the detriments other people would face. Nor whether the immediate gains would remain in the longer term (as price changes).
937  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Yeah, it's about the Bitcoin symbol. on: May 03, 2014, 08:50:58 AM
The US dollar symbol has two lines through it.

It comes from the U and the S laid over top each other.

The symbol predates the adoption of the dollar by the US: http://www.moneyfactory.gov/faqlibrary.html. The linked article from the US Bureau of Engraving doesn't provide a definitive explanation, but suggests the symbol is an "S" (Spanish) and a "P" (pesos) overlaid.
938  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: 1,000,000 bits = 1 bitcoin. Future-proofing Bitcoin for common usage? VOTE on: May 03, 2014, 08:19:44 AM

Idiots and Joes have much less of a problem with a price like 12 thousand bits or even 120 million bits than with a price like 0.0012 BTC. Me included.




And presumably that's why wine (say) is sold in 750ml bottles, as opposed to 0.75l bottles. But that doesn't seem to be an argument in support of moving the decimal point 2, 3 or 6 places.
939  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: 1,000,000 bits = 1 bitcoin. Future-proofing Bitcoin for common usage? VOTE on: May 03, 2014, 08:08:48 AM
Actually we have MicroBitcoin (μBTC) already. Why change it to Bits?

I prefer μBTC (spelled: uBit)
No we don't, we have microbitcoin. I think you've answered you're own question. Using those tiny fractional units is confusing and error prone.

Oh. Now I am confused. I thought we had BTC and - by definition - mBTC and µBTC (uBTC). We also have a protocol - Bitcoin. So is "microbitcoin" a fraction of the protocol, or an alternative name for a fraction of BTC?

Incidentally, when you say "using those tiny fractional units is confusing and error prone" - what subset of the global population do you have in mind? What size is that subset? Reason I ask is - the only time I've ever (I'm middle aged) seen people say this is confusing is on Bitcointalk (I'm not a scientist, engineer, etc, but I have lived/worked in a number of different countries in APAC and EMEA).
940  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: 1,000,000 bits = 1 bitcoin. Future-proofing Bitcoin for common usage? VOTE on: May 02, 2014, 10:07:33 PM
I very much like this idea, but unless a coin is worth 1 million then that is still way too many numbers for:
Idiots- (yes mean but we all know them), average joes, older persons(not all), and electronically handicapped(mother) will still have difficulties and they account for a big number of the population currently.

I think the idea is that people could choose to work with Satoshis and bits (a coffee might cost 1 bit, 50 Satoshis) or with "coins" (an island might cost 50 coins/BTC). Much like we can choose now.
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