The test on what to be with FRC will be what happens afterwards. I am not particulary fond of it because of the 80% premine which still gonna be 40% after 15 years.
Are you sure about that? I thought the 80% coins (80M) for the Foundation was fully funded in the first 3 coin-years, not over the whole distribution lifetime. Checking on IRC... |
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Nice coordinated pump and dump scheme guys, forum is completely flooded with FRC lol
Yeah, right, most folks talk about and develop an idea for over a year just to execute a pump/dump. That makes loads of sense... There are folks that are obviously hoping to make a bunch speculating, but right now I don't see any of the principal members of the team contemplating killing their own baby. The wacky (meaning unusual, not crazy) economics almost guarantee that this is an honest attempt. Honestly I think FRC has just blown a lot of folks minds (some epiphanies, some nervous breakdowns) and gives them something new to discuss during the "ASIC Delay Doldrums." |
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A few major misconceptions I see folks arguing about: 80% of INITIAL distribution will be decided by the FreiCoin Foundation according to an open grant request process. If you have an idea for distributing FreiCoin in a way that will enhance adoption you will have a chance to submit your proposal and get the 100k FRC you need to start an FRC based rewards card or whatever your idea is (FYI, I have some ideas, but no programming skills worth talking about if someone is looking for help with the non-coding aspects.) After 3 "coin-years" the Foundation is no longer funded by new coin generation, we are already over 3 months into this period given the accelerated block times. Once that 80% is distributed the foundation will have to operate on donations and volenteerism, using the 80% funds for the developers benefit is not part of the plan, it's about INITIAL coin DISTRIBUTION) Freicoin is modeled after the works of Silvio Gesell who was seen as a Communist by Capitalists, and the other way around. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Gesell) This IS a controversial idea to base a currency on, but it is not one that has ever been possible to test until the advent of cryptocurrency. Please be very careful with your knee-jerk reactions, the age of some of the writings may cause confusion given that the communism of the day was a very different sort and his writings have a lot of colloquial references to the time that are not easy to unravel. The theory behind Freicoin centers around a <1930 understanding of the world, infinite inflation was not considered a good thing, we didn't have pure fiat in the US, and communists were bombing and shooting to try to bring down the established order, even in the US. Please remember that the word to use when talking about economic advantage is "insurmountable" not "unfair." Someone born with $1Bn today has an insurmountable advantage over a person born into poverty today, and it is likely (under most theories, but not all) that their grandchildren will be in a similar situation given the current (and growing) class divide. If you have not seen this first hand, think of it as a caste system that is unintended and unacknowledged. The makers of Freicoin have not yet advocated replacement of all (or any) fiat currency with Freicoin, and I anticipate that this will be the case for some time. The reality is that there WILL be multiple currencies, some fiat, bitcoin, and maybe a few (or a ton) of other cryptocurrencies. Freicoin will need to coexist with other currencies and will not have an isolated existence. Given the low cost of converting to bitcoin or another crypto, the barrier between being able to afford multiple currency types will continue to drop, giving similar financial tools to the whole world, not just the wealthy. Saving wealth for retirement is neither encouraged or discouraged by Freicoin in a multi-currency environment, there is no reason to assume that everyone who earns a wage in FRC (or sells goods, etc.) will only be paid a living wage in FRC. If they have more than they need for their daily needs then it can be loaned out as FRC (pay me back what I loaned you in 1 year, much easier for peer-to-peer lending), or converted into fiat or another cryptocurrency for value storage. The demurrage is not so steep that you need to convert your daily living expenses, except for spending reasons, but holding FRC instead of BTC is a foolish plan right now, and likely will be in the future as well. In spite of their being called "the 99%" those in the movement make up FAR less than 99% of the planet, and even less than 99% of the unemployed. Globally is it NOT true that "most" folks are NOT working for a living. The vast majority of the global adult population is engaged in productive work for themselves, their families, their communities and their employment. It may not all be on-the-grid and exposed to the global banking system, but even the poorest of communities have internal trade in goods and services. Demurrage may be similar to inflation at the math level, but it is very different at the physiological and social level as well as the lack of a political aspect like fiat has. Instead of having money in your pocket that buys less and less over time for the same amount, I have money in my pocket that is perishable and prices that are (in theory) stable. I also know how and when my money is declining in value, so I don;t have to worry about the government changing it. Inflation gives an illusion of personal control over money while removing actual control. Demurrage gives personal insecurity over future value of money and drives a personal decision point much earlier in the decision process. Put more simply "I can SEE demurrage happen, inflation sneaks up on you." Please note, I'm NOT convinced that Freicoin will work in the long run, or that this economic theory is 100% correct, but honestly I don't know that it matters. All that will matter is adoption and user perception in the long run, miners should be minor  |
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lock this thread and close the topic as this coin is such a fail.
this coin will never be used on exchanges like mtgox or btc-e. and this is why
when depositing funds into the exchanges.. they hold them.
you continue your business trading the price fluctuations of the coin using a database of binary numbers that represent the deposited amount.
so while your profiting. the actual owner of the private key you deposited to (the exchange) is losing out due to the demurrage tax.
simply put. they wont touch it.
stick with the 2 longest surviving coins bitcoin and litecoin. or atleast invent something that has some actual use apart from making the first guy that owns the coin the richest and each subsequent person owning it receive less and less as they receive and hold it.
it also fails the demurrage thing by people just sending it to themselves on different addresses. too many loopholes. too many fails to be a viable candidate for mainstreaming
Hello Mr. Troll... Demurrage cannot be sidestepped. It happens to coins that stay still, and it happens to coins that move. This would also generally be applied to balances that sites hold in FRC for users. If the site operator is nice enough to "pay" his users 5% per year by not imposing demurrage, he might get (or want) something in return. I'm not sure what you mean by "fluctuations" since demurrage can be accurately calculated for any given blockheight. Once difficulty catches up to hashing that will be a pretty reliable indicator and potentially a new fee mechanism that site operators will like. The genie is out of the bottle with alt-coins and there are a huge number of financial theories out there that are begging for experimentation. Watch the experiment if you don't want to participate, and you might learn something. You can also continue to show your inability to turn a verb into a noun, and we will mock your failure. |
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We have started a Freicoin pool !
1. You can use any BTC miner
2. On our website choose worker type FRC. Point worker to coinotron.com, port 8322 or 9322.
3. Depending on worker type you can have PPS or RBPPS rewards
Disclaimer
This is experimental pool. Currently there is no FRC exchange. FRC network is small and prone to 51% attack. You are mining terracoins at your own risk.
PS
Currently payouts are disabled. I will enable enable payouts as soon as I perform all tests .
In and hashing, Thanks! |
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Thanks Jutarul, quick and easy!
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I've been mining and I currently 326 FRC. Let's make history here, I'll take a small cheese pizza or something for the above coins delivered to my house. I'm in Surrey B.C., Canada. Cheers.
I'm reading about freicoin... so it's an inflationary coin, isn't it? So if you don't get someone to sell you the pizza, will you loose money? If i sell you the pizza will i loose money? The penalty is 4.9% per year of holding it or 0.013.4% per day what for? so nobody tries to produce anything? everyone tries to buy stuff non produced by nobody? The idea is that it will stay almost completely liquid since it's not useful for savings and provide a bridge for other currencies like BitCoin that excel at being a long term store of value. The populist economics are interesting to try to wrap my head around too, and I love someone willing to put up an experiment about their pet monetary theory. My current Pizza cost is 6,000 FRC, let me know if you want a pie tomorrow! |
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Keynes said about demurrage that it's a similar provision for economic stimulus as inflation. But inflation is easier to implement. I read some Austrian economists think that demurrage money results in bubbles. And indeed, long-term investments are encouraged. So which would that possibly be? Land, real estate...  And indeed, Gesell recognized that problem. That's why he proposed a land reform. He wanted land to be administered as a co-operative. How can that happen with Freicoin? Also, you'd have to turn anything long-term investible into co-operatives then. So why don't we call the child by its proper name at last and do socialism? The middle point is good, if people are used to demurrage money they should tend to look for durable investments NOT denominated in a demurrage money. State owned means of production? What does that have to do with the price of Freicoin in China? Please put down the radical tangent and come back to the conversation. |
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CAUTION!!!!!
If you are mining, be absolutely sure that you are connected to multiple valid nodes.
I just got done dealing with someone who thought they had hundreds of thousands of FRC to sell, when in fact they had been in an orphan chain connected to a single invalid peer.
Don't waste your mining effort, double-check your connections.
--This Public Service Announcement has been brought to you by the word "DAMMNIT!"--
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Where can I download a miner for this?
You can use any SHA 256 coin miner you use for BTC/PPC/TRC. Just use port 8638. There's also a p2pool instance up at http://pool.freico.in:9638How or where do I add myself to this pool? sorry not used P2Pools b4 and wanted to give it a try Just point your miner at it and use your deposit address for a username, and any value for password. P2Pool does a payout split directly in the block. You can see stats by pointing your browser atthe same exact URL including port number. |
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Re-mining does not improve the cracked encryption scenario practically, agreed?
(paraphrased) Agreed, but my proposal would help keep more coins in circulation, eventually. We will not see bitcoin erode into something unusable within your lifetime by your own admission, right?
(paraphrased) Right, and I'm talking about the case where we have a usable but small number of coins that could be destabilized. (less than 50%? some other level? where do problems happen? what level do we need to maintain?) You are concerned with multi-generational use. This is simply economic uncertainty, and should be part of the investor equation. Are you proposing that we have to build a perfect system that does not require diversification of investments?
Yes, and I strongly believe that the only things which should apply a force on the market price of any currency should be natural market forces such as supply and demand. I snipped your points down for brevity, and to get verify my understanding. Please correct me if I missed your intent on them. I see one risk scenario presented repeatedly, the re-introduction of "lost" bitcoins causing destabilization. Are there other scenarios that your proposal would help outside of this? In fact by re-introducing large numbers of coins lost (to hackings or other events already past, and more in the future) you are causing the very event that you are talking about preventing. 4 more questions: Please explain how your mechanism, that will certainly cause destabilization by re-introducing large amounts of lost coins once every 5 generations, is superior to the current solution that only has the potential to cause a similar destabilization in a rare event (that should have plenty of warning.) Irreversibility of transactions is a key component of BitCoin, is this threat larger than those posed by reversible transactions needed for reclamation? Why do you assume that you are smarter and better able to plan for their future than your actual great-great-great-grandchildren? How does your economic theory behind this proposal handle multiple existing and many potential new currencies with different inflationary, deflationary, noninflationary, demurrage, pure-debt, and others? Are you considering a marketplace or basket approach, or treating BitCoin as an exclusive currency? |
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Done. Merry Christmas.
<Dickens> Bless you kind sir </Dickens> I've got it completed and I'm working on my paper notes now. Thanks again, and Merry Chistmas to you too |
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I'm launching an emergency loan request for 10BTC so I can give 1 BTC each to 10 members of my family for Christmas. I've got the funds on the way to Mt. Gox but it's taken 1 more business day than usual and I'm not optimistic that it will be completed before Santa comes (~13 hours from now) If this loan fails I'll give them fractional amounts and update later, but I'd rather not. https://btcjam.com/listings/1053Please Help if you can! |
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Well a few pages back we already began discussing some unhealthy scenarios which can develop from an infinitely deflationary currency. Some of this discussion has been quoted below. If you can follow up where the argument stopped and provide some solid counter-points I will consider them seriously. But you also bring up another good point about cracking keys; eventually most coins will come back into circulation when keys become easy enough to crack, and it's possible a situation like this could flood the market with lost coins which have been out of circulation for a long time. This idea to re-mine lost coins could help to offset any situation like that because it will help stabilise the money supply and not allow it to dwindle down to a dangerous or risky point were a sudden inflow of coins could cause great harm to the economy.
Cracking Keys is an exception case that needs to have a minimal planning performed now, but will have unique needs depending on when and how it is broken. Your proposal to re-mine lost coins will not prevent anyone from cracking this encryption, nor will it protect any coins. The only effect your policy would have is forcing some users who didn't have their coins stolen in the first 100 years of bitcoin to move them to a new cipher or lose them. If the break in encryption comes before your re-mining mechanism kicks in then there is no effect at all. Re-mining does not improve the cracked encryption scenario practically, agreed?Here's one reason I can think of why infinite deflation is not healthy, and I'm sure there are many more potential problems. Consider an example where at some point far in the future enough coins have been lost that we only have 100 left in active use. Now imagine a day where someone digs up an old private key out of a dusty old box in the attic of their new house, and that key gives them access to an address which holds 100 bitcoins, or even more. Imagine what that would do to the economy if that person now owned more wealth than the entire economy combined. This is just one simple reason why it's inherently unhealthy.
You keep referencing "infinite" which means "going on forever" the very use of that word implies that there is no end or curve, but it just goes and goes "TO INFINITY!" Given a realistic situation as bitcoins get lost more and more rational people will place a higher and higher value on the remaining coins. Since they are worth more, extra care will be take to ensure that they are NOT lost, and you will end up with a long tail of deflation that reaches the FAR FAR future long before the number of BitCoins can realistically reach a point that it is unusable. Even if 1 million years from now there is only 1 Satoshi left that is an acceptable end for me, since that 1 satoshi will be worth a fortune in bitcoin 7.0 or something. Even if we lose 1% of all BTC every year, we will have a functional economy for generations before we need to add precision. Your infinity problem is so much farther than 100 (or likely even 1000) years away. We will not see bitcoin erode into something unusable within your lifetime by your own admission, right?
There are several faulty lines of logic used here. First of all the bitcoins were lost for a long time, but they were found again when the person found the private key in a dusty box. This is not really how bitcoins are lost, they are lost when private keys are destroyed and not recoverable. However, in this case, the private key was written down physically so it was possible to find it again. At this fictional point in the future, it will have been a very long time since the market saw any single account holding such a large amount of bitcoins. As far as the market is concerned, there is essentially only 100 bitcoins in active circulation. Also keep in mind that I am describing bitcoin as it is now, where coins cannot be re-mined, to illustrate why infinite deflation is unhealthy. Reintroducing an amount of coins which appears to be equal to the entire amount left in circulation after hundreds or thousands of years of deflation in the money supply, is going to cause some large upsets. Now in the case where it's possible to re-mine coins, if that person found the key sitting in an old dusty box, and it had remained untouched for over 100 years, the coins would already be gone. In fact if he found those coins 99 years after they were first active, he could use them; but in such a scenario the re-mining process has ensured a stable money supply, meaning his newly acquired 100 bitcoins will have no dramatic effect on the market because there are still nearly all bitcoins in circulation.
This is simply economic uncertainty, and should be part of the investor equation. Anyone investing in BitCoins when there are only 100 left should know that there USED to be 21 million, and that there is a chance that some will come back online. This is a risk to investing in bitcoin that is infinitesimal right now, but will grow over time as coins are lost, why would future investors not be aware of it? The problem is that the chance of "crashing" the bitcoin economy with found coins will require either a LOT of coins, or a LOT of lost coins, but again, this is a risk, not a certainty. Risk of devaluation due to an event like this is real, but unlikely. Are you proposing that we have to build a perfect system that does not require diversification of investments?I don't see anything here that says that deflation over a long time is bad, or that we need to weaken bitcoin to prevent risk in the future. |
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yay, another pump and dump altcoin  whos going to scam first?  Actually, I'm inclined to believe this one has legitimate roots. It's been over a year in the making and has been done mostly in public. |
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If someone wants to put up the other 5k FRC I have an offer for 10k FRC. (edit: this deal is planned for after Christmas, if you are mining and want to commit some output please PM)
FRC is REALLY new, which might be part of the valuation, the 80% being given to charity may also play a role.
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1000 FRC still available. (edit, awaiting new stock, contact me if selling FRC)
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What differences (if any) from the OP are in the 12-21-12 release?
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where u get these from?? got a link to the client / daemon? and whitepaper, pools etc?
website: http://freico.in/Forums: www.freicoin.orgGithub: https://github.com/freicoin/freicoinThe forums are a mess, I'm still trying to sort it out, here's a quick dump. It was referenced in a "lost bitcoins" conversation recently, so I grabbed the client (released on 12-21-12) and started solo mining. I'm still looking for more information such as the coin limit (if any) (100 million) but I know this much... It's been in the works a while: Original project announcement thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3816.0Article from June http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2012/06/freicoin-occupys-online-curren.htmlFailed Indiegogo pitch: http://www.indiegogo.com/freicoinBeta started this fall, and the chain was reset on 12-21-12 for production. It's an odd critter. It's a demurrage based currency where your coins are constantly losing 4%/year which is paid to miners as a subsidy. It's brainchild came out of the 99% movement so it's aimed at disincentivising hoarding and lowering interest rates. I don't quite get how this could work with other currencies in existence, but the slow 4% seep rate may not matter too much in the end. It may just be like bitcoin but with skewed interest rates and less desire to hold. |
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