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3541  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 19, 2014, 12:20:49 AM
We have to assume that the 2-way peg is unbreakable. Same as bitcoin blockchain is unbreakable.

Quote
Bitcoin’s blockheaders can be regarded as an example of a dynamic-membership multi-party signature
(or DMMS), which we consider to be of independent interest as a new type of group signature.

spvp is new type of group signature (it can replace ECDSA M-of-N multi-signature)

spvp is vaporware and will likely be much less secure than MM.

 Huh

They're two totally different things and both work in tandem. What you just said makes no sense

SPVP is absolutely not vaporware. It might not be ready to implement as we are speaking but there are real maths behind it.
[/quote]

i meant a SC running it's own security scheme but connected to MC via spvp.
3542  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 19, 2014, 12:15:55 AM
Redecentralization: building a robust cryptocurrency developer network

https://blog.conformal.com/redecentralization-robust-developer-network/
3543  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 19, 2014, 12:11:00 AM
I'm just trying to make incremental progress in my understanding by answering the question "on which ledger is the value stored?"  The probability that the 2-way peg is severed is a different discussion.

I think the probability of the 2-way peg being severed is actually central to the definition of "sidechain" vs. "altcoin," and for practical purposes determines investment behavior in the chain.

On one end of the spectrum, if a sidechain's 2-way peg can be severed at the whim of the sidechain devs, it would essentially be an altcoin and would presumably attract about as much investment as altcoins do (not a threat to Bitcoin).

At the other end of the spectrum, if it's mathematically impossible to sever the 2wp, then it is a true sidechain and the value seems to always remain with the Bitcoin ledger (not a threat to Bitcoin, at least not for this reason).

For cases in between, we cannot really call it a true sidechain, and by the same token we cannot really expect substantial portions of the bitcoin holders to just jump over to the sidechain.

In other words, there's a reasoning error to watch out for here: insofar as the value that could be funneled over to the sidechain relies on the certainty that the 2wp will remain, the concern is self-defeating. If there is any shadow of possibility that the 2wp could be broken, it won't attract that many bitcoins - not much more than any altcoin; and if any sidechain does attract a large portion of the bitcoins, it will only be because the 2wp is as certain of a thing in investors' minds as Bitcoin itself is, which is an extremely high bar.

(This does still leave the possibility that the devs could hamstring Bitcoin deliberately to reduce confidence in Bitcoin to bring it in line with confidence in a not completely solid 2wp so that many people would switch despite some uncertainty. However, this is a much smaller argument to be making.)

Great post as usual, ZB.  I mostly1 agree: the amount of bitcoins that move to a sidechain will depend, in part, on the credibility of the 2-way peg.  And, realistically, it will probably take years for any sidechain to establish enough credibility to attract a significant amount of bitcoins (assuming OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY is implemented, and even this could take a few years if it happens at all).  So I suspect any migration of economic activity away from the Blockchain to be slow and anti-climactic.    

Hypothetical Question: If we assume (perhaps unrealistically) that the 2-way peg is unbreakable and if we also assume (again, perhaps unrealistically) that the security of Bitcoin's blockchain remains unchanged with sidechains, what additional risks do sidechains impose?  The risks I can see are (a) that sidechains could be used as an "excuse" to avoid addressing Bitcoin's scalability, thereby making the likelihood of an uber sidechain absorbing all the bitcoin more likely (along with the possible shenanigans that such an event might entail), and (b) that it sets a precedent that soft-forking changes to add new "features" are OK.

1I think even if one assumes the 2-way peg is unbreakable, that value is still stored on the sidechain ledger (at least) in the extreme case where the majority of coins and economic activity take place on that sidechain.  If everyone moves out of bitcoin and onto the sidechain, then the Blockchain no longer serves its memory function--it becomes superseded by the sidechain's ledger.


We have to assume that the 2-way peg is unbreakable. Same as bitcoin blockchain is unbreakable.

Quote
Bitcoin’s blockheaders can be regarded as an example of a dynamic-membership multi-party signature
(or DMMS), which we consider to be of independent interest as a new type of group signature.

spvp is new type of group signature (it can replace ECDSA M-of-N multi-signature)

spvp is vaporware and will likely be much less secure than MM.
3544  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 11:59:01 PM
i would rather see gvts and orgs like the IMF have to buy BTC to use as reserves.  that would take us to the Moon:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2248419

i still see SC's as a way to break Bitcoin's money function by allowing a gvt sponsored currency to siphon BTC to SC w/o having to pay for them.  we need that the price ramps to sustain mining fees and establish Bitcoin as its own global independent currency.  forget asset toys.  as it is, Wall St is the only one who needs or wants those types of toys in the first place with a minority of Americans invested in these things.  even less by foreigners.  what ppl should want and need is Sound Money.  that is what this project is all about, imo.  and the nice thing is anyone who's currently in the Bitcoin system can just sit back, relax, and wait for it to happen.  the price charts still tell me we are destined for greatness.

sorry cypher I'm slow, could you please explain to me how the bolded part is possible?  (serious question)

as i said, imo, the mere insertion of the spvp into the source code throws the whole notion of Bitcoin as Sound Money out the window b/c it allows the separation of the BTC currency unit from its ultra-secure blockchain ledger.  once that's done, all the SC's that have bolted onto Bitcoin can sit back and absorb all the BTC that might be tempted to leave the mainchain.  we also would know that there is a for-profit entity out there (Blockstream) who is in position to influence the continued development of these very SC threats to encourage this dynamic for profit generation.  is there an additional independent way for a gvt sponsored currency to encourage flight to itself?  maybe, use your imagination.  i can think of a few.

thanks for the answer.

so the thing that worry you the most is that once a btc is transferred (locked) something bad could happen (a flaw in the math behind the spvp, an 51% attack on the SC) hence the btc will be stuck in a limbo, am I right?

or do you think that the degree of separation introduced by the sidechain is enough to broke the link (peg) between the btc  tokens (currency) and the hashing power ("commodity"/"gold")?

i think the spvp breaks the sound money function by allowing the delinking of BTC units from the blockchain.  it also encourages the transformation of BTC to speculative SC's that offer assets of all manner (stocks, bonds, etc).  these assets do not represent money and are not liquid.  Bitcoin will no longer be simply money.  it will be a mix of money and assets.  much like a Fidelity or eTrade trading platform.  as a result, i doubt it ever gets treated as its own currency on Forex.  and i doubt it ever gains Sound Money status like gold once had.  THAT is a shame b/c that is what i thought this project was all about.  replacing fiat money with a digital gold standard.
3545  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 10:33:38 PM
Unlike most detractors in here, Adam Back and Austin Hill's track record speak for themselves.
You're definitely new here, or else you'd recognize that exact same argument has been run by each and every single long-con scammer and ponzi operator going back to Pirate@40 until the present day.

Are you getting paid to discredit Blockstream?

well, another way to look at them is that they both admittedly missed the Bitcoin train in the beginning and only came around in 2013.  how visionary is that?

 Roll Eyes

A technology that Adam Back developed is being leveraged in Bitcoin. Austin Hill has been working on zero-knowledge system since before you probably know they existed.

You really want to debate who is the visionary here?

I'd also like to know if you plan to respond to everyone who has thoroughly debunked your claims in the past 3-5 pages

you're a legend in your own mind.

and you're a fraud in your own thread

i'm sure everyone's here to read you then, right?
3546  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 10:23:58 PM
Unlike most detractors in here, Adam Back and Austin Hill's track record speak for themselves.
You're definitely new here, or else you'd recognize that exact same argument has been run by each and every single long-con scammer and ponzi operator going back to Pirate@40 until the present day.

Are you getting paid to discredit Blockstream?

well, another way to look at them is that they both admittedly missed the Bitcoin train in the beginning and only came around in 2013.  how visionary is that?

 Roll Eyes

A technology that Adam Back developed is being leveraged in Bitcoin. Austin Hill has been working on zero-knowledge system since before you probably know they existed.

You really want to debate who is the visionary here?

I'd also like to know if you plan to respond to everyone who has thoroughly debunked your claims in the past 3-5 pages

you're a legend in your own mind.
3547  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 10:23:07 PM
Unlike most detractors in here, Adam Back and Austin Hill's track record speak for themselves.
You're definitely new here, or else you'd recognize that exact same argument has been run by each and every single long-con scammer and ponzi operator going back to Pirate@40 until the present day.

Are you getting paid to discredit Blockstream?

well, another way to look at them is that they both admittedly missed the Bitcoin train in the beginning and only came around in 2013.  how visionary is that?

 Roll Eyes

A technology that Adam Back developed is being leveraged in Bitcoin. Austin Hill has been working on zero-knowledge system since before you probably know they existed.

You really want to debate who is the visionary here?

I'd also like to know if you plan to respond to everyone who has thoroughly debunked your claims in the past 3-5 pages

well, i recognized Bitcoin for what is was in Jan 2011 and acted on it.  there is no debate.
3548  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 10:11:55 PM
Unlike most detractors in here, Adam Back and Austin Hill's track record speak for themselves.
You're definitely new here, or else you'd recognize that exact same argument has been run by each and every single long-con scammer and ponzi operator going back to Pirate@40 until the present day.

Are you getting paid to discredit Blockstream?

well, another way to look at them is that they both admittedly missed the Bitcoin train in the beginning and only came around in 2013.  how visionary is that?
3549  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 08:18:52 PM
i would rather see gvts and orgs like the IMF have to buy BTC to use as reserves.  that would take us to the Moon:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2248419

i still see SC's as a way to break Bitcoin's money function by allowing a gvt sponsored currency to siphon BTC to SC w/o having to pay for them.  we need that the price ramps to sustain mining fees and establish Bitcoin as its own global independent currency.  forget asset toys.  as it is, Wall St is the only one who needs or wants those types of toys in the first place with a minority of Americans invested in these things.  even less by foreigners.  what ppl should want and need is Sound Money.  that is what this project is all about, imo.  and the nice thing is anyone who's currently in the Bitcoin system can just sit back, relax, and wait for it to happen.  the price charts still tell me we are destined for greatness.

sorry cypher I'm slow, could you please explain to me how the bolded part is possible?  (serious question)

as i said, imo, the mere insertion of the spvp into the source code throws the whole notion of Bitcoin as Sound Money out the window b/c it allows the separation of the BTC currency unit from its ultra-secure blockchain ledger.  once that's done, all the SC's that have bolted onto Bitcoin can sit back and absorb all the BTC that might be tempted to leave the mainchain.  we also would know that there is a for-profit entity out there (Blockstream) who is in position to influence the continued development of these very SC threats to encourage this dynamic for profit generation.  is there an additional independent way for a gvt sponsored currency to encourage flight to itself?  maybe, use your imagination.  i can think of a few.
3550  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 08:01:00 PM
why do ppl, including myself, always say that Bitcoin is going to have a binary outcome?

it's b/c they understand that Bitcoin is about Money.  Sound fixed supply Money.  you know, the Money that has the chance to consume the Forex and gold markets.  in that sense, it has the chance to consume the entire fiat world; yes including stocks, bonds, insurance, just by being used as money alone.  it doesn't have to incorporate all those speculative assets directly within its protocol using SC's.  

As much as a despise of what Gates said (in my words: "the blockchain tech is great, but as a money it's not so good"), you have to admit that the features 'decentralized', 'trustless', 'possibly anonymous' and 'uncensorable' are ones that would also be damn good features for stock exchange / dividend payments / all kinds of derivative gambling, ownership management, etc.

If you want Bitcoin (the money) to conquer these areas and serve them as a liquid interchange money, wouldn't it be brilliant to have a technical solution that would allow some asset ledger (say the land ownership ledger) to interchange value with the money ledger (Bitcoin) and make atomic swaps across the chains possible?


i guess, if it's possible.

but are we asking too much?  can it really be achieved by the spvp?  that's the $5B question, b/c that's what we'll be putting at risk if SC's are wrong.
3551  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 07:55:48 PM
-


imo, introducing the spvp into the source code, by itself, is a statement to the market that the BTC unit can be separated from its ultra-secure blockchain.  i might be wrong, but that breaks Bitcoin's sound money principles.  yes, ppl can inspect what hopefully will be open source code and don't have to move to a SC they don't like.  but to me, the potential will be there and as a forward looking person, i don't like that.  i might have to front run using my expectations and assumptions of what will be the consequences.

the other reason i don't like it and which i tried to avoid in my earlier post is the Blockstream for profit motive.  they have every incentive to encourage usage of SC's.  they say they won't construct a SC for a SC scam.  well, that's for anyone's definition.  and when there's money involved, i can't see how they won't take it when they have investors to please.  they can always use the same excuse after a SC failure "well, we didn't force anyone to use it".  yes, it bothers me that 40% of core devs + 3 of the top committers are under one paid roof.  that they could get something like this through into the source code is a clear conflict of interest and sends a bad message to the marketplace.
3552  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 07:39:06 PM
why do ppl, including myself, always say that Bitcoin is going to have a binary outcome?

it's b/c they understand that Bitcoin is about Money.  Sound fixed supply Money.  you know, the Money that has the chance to consume the Forex and gold markets.  in that sense, it has the chance to consume the entire fiat world; yes including stocks, bonds, insurance, just by being used as money alone.  it doesn't have to incorporate all those speculative assets directly within its protocol using SC's.  
3553  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 07:29:13 PM
-

the only thing i would say to your response it that the centralized trust problems we've had in the last 5 yrs are going away.  exchanges are being more regulated and investment funds are holding them more accountable.  Merkle tree audits are becoming commonplace to verify reserves.

my long term vision is that more and more trade is conducted directly in Bitcoin with merchants holding BTC, like Overstock, and paying suppliers in BTC.  that is happening.  you can see the progress with time if you've been paying attention.  the ultimate goal is to bring everything into the Bitcoin system. it will take time but it is clearly moving in the right direction.

but for this to happen, the Bitcoin system has to remain impenetrable, not only from the outside, but from the inside.  as in not introducing a breech in to the source code which acts like an offramp, leak, or siphon of value. 

the higher level i go to when viewing this SC dynamic, the easier it is to see what the problems are.  for me at least.
3554  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 07:19:26 PM

watched those few minutes and it was interesting.

i find it jaw dropping that the only cautionary place on the internet about SC's appears to be here.  yesterday's glance at Reddit shows nothing but blind faith and sheep herding regarding the SC progress.  amazing.

i don't mind being a lightening rod or having my own shadow assassin Wink  as long as i speak from the heart. 

we need to be discussing all existential threats to Bitcoin somewhere.  it might as well be here.
3555  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 06:52:03 PM
it's becoming clearer to me everyday that what we are dealing with is Keynesian vs Austrian philosophy with this SC's debate.

...

"The blockchain may only ever be applicable to Bitcoin as Money".

"The BTC currency unit is forever inextricably linked to its blockchain.  you break that link and you break Bitcoin".

Cypher: in the past, you've imagined a future where governments hold bitcoins as reserves to back their own currency.  Could sidechains be a mechanism to implement such a scheme?

i would rather see gvts and orgs like the IMF have to buy BTC to use as reserves.  that would take us to the Moon:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2248419

i still see SC's as a way to break Bitcoin's money function by allowing a gvt sponsored currency to siphon BTC to SC w/o having to pay for them.  we need that the price ramps to sustain mining fees and establish Bitcoin as its own global independent currency.  forget asset toys.  as it is, Wall St is the only one who needs or wants those types of toys in the first place with a minority of Americans invested in these things.  even less by foreigners.  what ppl should want and need is Sound Money.  that is what this project is all about, imo.  and the nice thing is anyone who's currently in the Bitcoin system can just sit back, relax, and wait for it to happen.  the price charts still tell me we are destined for greatness.
3556  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 05:54:13 PM
it's becoming clearer to me everyday that what we are dealing with is Keynesian vs Austrian philosophy with this SC's debate.

heretofore, what has brought Bitcoin to where it is today is its Sound Money function.  and its been brilliant at that.  instant liquidity and transportation worldwide and p2p.  continuous growth in the economy and stellar, but volatile, increasing SOV.  gvts everywhere scrambling to figure out what this is and what role it has for their futures.  investment groups everywhere diving into a variety of Bitcoin investing schemes.  Bitcoin is the "Technology Singularity", as Daniel put it in the video above, that is the culmination of 4 decades of work by the cypherpunks.  we have achieved acceptance as a global, digital, cash money system that, imo, is in the process of replacing gold's function for the last 5000 yrs.  to me, an Austrian leaning Bitcoin proponent, that's all we should strive to be.  that's all we need to be.  my goal is to have Bitcoin have its own ticker symbol on the Forex exchange.  from there, as the only true Sound Money in the world, it can consume all fiat currency AND gold, which will take us To The Moon and way beyond as the sole globally accepted currency.  there only needs to be one.  the problem is, if it is even a problem, it will take time and some long hard fought battles.  the Keynesians don't want to help us.  they don't want to "buy in" to the system which would take the price up logarithmically.  they think a price of $376 is "too expensive".  well, to me the other view is that they just weren't paying attention back in 2009 and tough luck, that's how technology disrupts financial systems, as it has with many other industries.  i say "buy in" now and you can still join us on the way to the Moon.  we haven't even really taken off yet.

the Keynesian view is that Bitcoin needs to do more to gain acceptance and grow itself.  the protocol needs to be changed to incorporate all other forms of asset options; stocks, bonds, assurance contracts, smart contracts, insurance, etc.  nevermind that if Bitcoin succeeds at the Austrian Sound Money function, it will force all those assets to trade in terms of Bitcoin eventually as well.  but that would be the hard battle and there are too many fiat vested interests that don't want to see that happen.  and there are too many Bitcoiner's who are impatient and can't stand price volatility.  and there are too many devs that gotta dev and get paid (in USD's).  and there are too many of all of those who missed out.  so what do they do?  they try to change Bitcoin.  change it by changing the source code which breaks the Sound Money function.  to me, that is what the spvp does, it creates an offramp into all manner of these assets.  after all, that is exactly what the Blockstream (Keynesian's) say as well; that being that the blockchain is too restrictive, it's prevents innovation, it's too risky, it's too slow, it's not big enough, yada yada yada.  so what is wrong with using SC's to incorporate all those assets?  it breaks the Sound Money function.  Bitcoin will no longer be viewed as solely a new form of money.  it will be viewed as a "trading platform" with which you can use to move back and forth btwn assets and BTC.  it would be like a Fidelity brokerage house, you deposit your money in a cash acct and then trade all manner of assets in and out. it also destroys the time preference of what money should be.  you see, stocks, bonds, contracts, insurance, etc are long term investments.  they are to be held.  and they are not used to provide seamless, instant, liquidity type functions like Bitcoin would be if it stays in its current form as sound money.  thus, we many NEVER see those assets be converted back to BTC in the future.  or at least if we do, it won't be for a long time, and then what does that do for Bitcoins money function?  answer:  it slows it down if not outright destroys it.  if that's true, where do Bitcoin miners get the tx fees they desperately need in the future to secure the mainchain?  what do we, as current Bitcoin holders, do if we see that many ppl are using this offramp to move into all these different SC's?  how do we interpret an especially popular SC?  Zerg and others say that we should trust Blockstream devs to incorporate any popular function back into the MC. but that would be to violate one of Bitcoins core principles; trust no man.  and incorporating other assets back into MC doesn't even make any sense when you are talking about SC's that offer completely different assets as defined above.  they would have to stay as SC's and i dare say there mere existence destroys Bitcoins liquidity and money function.  

Bitcoin is a simple system currently.  that's great for a simple money function.  we don't want complexity or risk.  but to add SC's into the equation introduces all sorts of risk and unpredictable consequences.  the price of Bitcoin has to move orders of magnitude higher to achieve its money status.  this is how miners will profit and how adoption will increase.  the only way to achieve this is to target the Forex and gold markets as a Sound Money; the exact same plan that has gotten us to where we are.  those are the Big Kahuna's and this is the strategy that the cypherpunks ultimately envisioned and this is what will take us to the Moon.  we need to force outsiders to buy in.  not allow them to insert an offramp to divert value into insignificant, undesirable or risky asset markets.  

if you've read this thread for any length of time, you can see that what i'm saying above is totally consistent with my positions in the past.  as well as my past memes:

"The blockchain may only ever be applicable to Bitcoin as Money".

"The BTC currency unit is forever inextricably linked to its blockchain.  you break that link and you break Bitcoin".

This is a wall of text cypher Wink

One minor neatpick: what will happen if you're wrong, what if bitcoin as is it is not enough to reach the goal you aimed to? I'm not saying that sidechain will be the "upgrade" tha will save bitcoin, though. I'm arguing the fact that bitcoin will succeed without any modifications.

its a fair question.

but i can't see how it would not for 3 reasons.  the code has withstood attack, the fixed supply, and the price charts all indicate future success.  the latter being subjective of course.  
3557  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 05:17:04 PM
it's becoming clearer to me everyday that what we are dealing with is Keynesian vs Austrian philosophy with this SC's debate.

heretofore, what has brought Bitcoin to where it is today is its Sound Money function.  and its been brilliant at that.  instant liquidity and transportation worldwide and p2p.  continuous growth in the economy and stellar, but volatile, increasing SOV.  gvts everywhere scrambling to figure out what this is and what role it has for their futures.  investment groups everywhere diving into a variety of Bitcoin investing schemes.  Bitcoin is the "Technology Singularity", as Daniel put it in the video above, that is the culmination of 4 decades of work by the cypherpunks.  we have achieved acceptance as a global, digital, cash money system that, imo, is in the process of replacing gold's function for the last 5000 yrs.  to me, an Austrian leaning Bitcoin proponent, that's all we should strive to be.  that's all we need to be.  my goal is to have Bitcoin have its own ticker symbol on the Forex exchange.  from there, as the only true Sound Money in the world, it can consume all fiat currency AND gold, which will take us To The Moon and way beyond as the sole globally accepted currency.  there only needs to be one money and Bitcoin can be "it".  the problem is, if it is even a problem, it will take time and some long hard fought battles.  the Keynesians don't want to help us.  they don't want to "buy in" to the system which would take the price up logarithmically.  they think a price of $376 is "too expensive".  well, to me the other view is that they just weren't paying attention back in 2009 and tough luck, that's how technology disrupts financial systems, as it has with many other industries.  i say "buy in" now and you can still join us on the way to the Moon.  we haven't even really taken off yet.

the Keynesian view is that Bitcoin needs to do more to gain acceptance and grow itself.  the protocol needs to be changed to incorporate all other forms of asset options; stocks, bonds, assurance contracts, smart contracts, insurance, etc.  by allowing BTC to be transformed into speculative assets via the spvp, that is by definition inflationary.  nevermind that if Bitcoin succeeds at the Austrian Sound Money function, it will force all those assets to trade in terms of Bitcoin eventually as well.  but that would be the hard battle and there are too many fiat vested interests that don't want to see that happen.  and there are too many Bitcoiner's who are impatient and can't stand price volatility.  and there are too many devs that gotta dev and get paid (in USD's).  and there are too many of all of those who missed out.  so what do they do?  they try to change Bitcoin.  change it by changing the source code which breaks the Sound Money function.  to me, that is what the spvp does, it creates an offramp into all manner of these assets.  after all, that is exactly what the Blockstream (Keynesian's) say as well; that being that the blockchain is too restrictive, it's prevents innovation, it's too risky, it's too slow, it's not big enough, yada yada yada.  so what is wrong with using SC's to incorporate all those assets?  it breaks the Sound Money function.  Bitcoin will no longer be viewed as solely a new form of money.  it will be viewed as a "trading platform" with which you can use to move back and forth btwn assets and BTC.  it would be like a Fidelity brokerage house, you deposit your money in a cash acct and then trade all manner of assets in and out. it also destroys the time preference of what money should be.  you see, stocks, bonds, contracts, insurance, etc are long term investments.  they are to be held.  and they are not used to provide seamless, instant, liquidity type functions like Bitcoin would be if it stays in its current form as sound money.  thus, we may NEVER see those assets be converted back to BTC in the future.  or at least if we do, it won't be for a long time, and then what does that do for Bitcoins money function?  answer:  it slows it down if not outright destroys it.  if that's true, where do Bitcoin miners get the tx fees they desperately need in the future to secure the mainchain?  what do we, as current Bitcoin holders, do if we see that many ppl are using this offramp to move into all these different SC's?  how do we interpret an especially popular SC?  Zerg and others say that we should trust Blockstream devs to incorporate any popular function back into the MC. but that would be to violate one of Bitcoins core principles; trust no man.  and incorporating other assets back into MC doesn't even make any sense when you are talking about SC's that offer completely different assets as defined above.  they would have to stay as SC's and i dare say there mere existence destroys Bitcoins liquidity and money function.  

Bitcoin is a simple system currently.  that's great for a simple money function.  we don't want complexity or risk.  but to add SC's into the equation introduces all sorts of risk and unpredictable consequences.  the price of Bitcoin has to move orders of magnitude higher to achieve its money status.  this is how miners will profit and how adoption will increase.  the only way to achieve this is to target the Forex and gold markets as a Sound Money; the exact same plan that has gotten us to where we are.  those are the Big Kahuna's we want to tap into and this is the strategy that the cypherpunks ultimately envisioned and this is what will take us to the Moon.  we need to force outsiders to buy in.  not allow them to insert an offramp to divert value into insignificant, undesirable or risky asset markets.  

if you've read this thread for any length of time, you can see that what i'm saying above is totally consistent with my positions in the past.  as well as my past memes:

"The blockchain may only ever be applicable to Bitcoin as Money".

"The BTC currency unit is forever inextricably linked to its blockchain.  you break that link and you break Bitcoin".
3558  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 03:17:53 PM
Odalv, what type of mathematical proof is being used to lock btc in the currently functioning federated server models you claim are in place today? And why would they be considered secure and how well are they functioning?
3559  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 12:01:41 PM
Someone was gushing over gmax over on reddit so in the interest of balance I had to show him this. For those who don't know, aantonop is Andreas ;

He didn't have the brass to post it publicly of course, he's a cowardly weasel through and through

In the interest of being a tough guy like you, here is the rest of our PM discussion which you must have missed in your posting:

Quote
Wait, so you lost the vote, cancelled the vote and are now telling me that you lost it but BY LESS THAN I CLAIMED?
Do you believe that everyone in the world who doesn't agree with you is just one person? I'm getting that impression.

No. I'm saying that you either can't count or you were outright lying.  And I'm letting you know in private because I'm kind enough to not point our your innumeracy-or-dishonesty in public even though you've been rather uncivil towards me.

Quote
The you accuse me from gathering community input (Wow!), which is what y'all said was needed.
Have you no shame?
Gathering input is good— but what you posted wasn't a genuine effort to get opinions it was a heavily biased rabel-rousing rant which has had the effect of causing people to make threats of violence against me. And if I'm uncharitable I might conclude from the fact that you never mentioned it in the main discussion that you intended to keep it hidden so that your incorrect claims would go unchallenged... or perhaps you just didn't think to mention it, it happens... but still stinks.

to which you replied:

GO fuck yourself you little weasel. You have no shame, no integrity and no balls. You can't even handle a public discussion without getting some sycophant to shut it down when you're losing.

FUCK YOU and suck on a cactus.


I honestly believed that if it were actually a vote the position I was recommending would have eventually won out, the vote-stacking you were conducting only goes so far— as I said in the discussion, the only criteria I've seen I've seen suggested that would have kept Bruce Wagner, Nefario, or even Pirate40 off is the one of not including people where there was genuine concern— all hard large basis of public support. That this has been an enormous time and emotion suck, and it had reached the point where aantonop was name calling people who didn't agree with him, along with threats and other embarrassing responses... it probably was best to kill it mercifully.

3560  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 18, 2014, 11:11:13 AM
In no way is the "Bitcoin's bullet proof BTC/blockchain linkage" broken.  The coins aren't actually moved to the other chain, they are held on the mainchain like gold in a vault and a representation which is NOT BTC and can't be spent at coinbase for example, appears on the sidechain.

There is no way sidechains break the 21 million scarcity limit of real BTC.  And anything that a sidechain could do to "dilute" the space (that is by creating a new token type) can be done with an altcoin today, and that has gotten nowhere.  Any "betrayal" of the BTC "brand" that can be done with sidechains can equivalently be done much more easily (and with the same brand damage) with centralized solutions.  We've seen it over and over again; Gox ponzi didn't kill BTC, and SCponzi won't either.  But the risk of SCponzi will certainly make the mainchain the preferred place to hold and make large transfers.  Sidechains will make Bitcoin the preferred long term store of value, because tremendous utility is just a chain transfer away.

  And how is Gox going to go Ponzi when the GoxBTC and GoxUSD on its sidechain must match the BTC "locked" on the mainchain and the USD in their bank accounts (which can be audited)?

If a multi-token sidechain is created with scBTC and inflata-Coin-to-make-devs-rich, what do you think people will do?  Probably not even touch the sidechain.  But assuming they do, they will hold the scBTC and when they need to "use" the sidechain features the require inflata-coin, they'll buy the inflata-coin moments before spending it.

But without sidechains you really do risk a new token that comes along and takes massive market share.  We as a society are not ready to put stocks, mortgages, etc on a blockchain (because why have the risk of a new tech coupled with the return of an old stock).  But someday we WILL be.  And when we are, what's going to be the preferred payment?  Old stodgy BTC that you have to sign up for exchanges, do AML, etc to access real markets, or tradecoin which can be tranformed into GOOG 5 seconds after receipt?  There's a REASON gold shot up when ETFs appeared -- its called access to markets.  

What about the IOT (internet of things) token?  20 years from now, items in your house might be doing 500 txns per day for a total of < $5 automatically on your behalf... Sidechains allow BTC to scale beyond our wildest dreams to applications we can't even consider.

You are like the guy who said there's only use for 5 computers in the world.  

You should instead consider that the biggest risk to BTC right now is the sidechain-altcoin that Blockstream so "kindly" offered to build instead of integrating these technologies directly into BTC.  That altcoin has the potential to leave BTC in the backwaters of digital currencies (except that I believe in the core devs in Blockstream to move the tech over).

Ok, that's probably the end of my rant... but my subsequent silence does not mean that you are right :-).  Honestly, I miss the great insights you guys (and mostly cypherdoc) provide about the larger world economic picture on this thread and hope that we can eventually get back to it!  But I'll tell you this; I'm a technologist and I've skipped from one newly breaking technology to the next for my entire career in startups; gaming, telecom in 1995-2000, storage, wireless, OSHW, bitcoin.  I'm telling you if sidechains CAN be done (honestly I haven't really verified the gory details of the automated 2-way peg myself) they WILL eventually be the dominant coin.  I proposed them in early 2012 (the concept not the mechanism)...  but don't worry to much, BTC will not die; it'll be the Rolls Royce with a valuation above what we have today, while the sidechain-enabled coin takes 99% of the market.

EDIT: tl;dr. Bitcoin is the zerg.  It will take over everything thru sidechains.


That's a really persuasive argument  from someone I respect.

The other way to question this though is that somehow btc units are fed through the peg and through some magic stocks, bonds , smart contracts, altcoins, etc come out the other side and somehow this is not inflationary? What if it just breaks the entire system?
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