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i think that the tentative buyers dilemma is unsolvable without causing damage to any group.
therefore i'll refund anyone who is not interested in locking.
lockers will get june's price, up to a total limit of 4.2m tokens. the rest will be refunded.
this can mean that each tentative buyer will get a refund of more than half the btc amount deposited. we'll know better once we finish refunding all nonlockers (or refund askers, though they all got refund promptly already). please let me know asap.
WOW this dude is only promising to refund half of whatever people bought, once again, makes new sh1t up, why didnt u say you will refund half during the sale, when someone says you get a refund it is automatically expected to be full unless specified, what a scam artist, this guys word means nothing. In case anyone has missed this, Iggy7en appears to be spamming. Contributors can still withdraw their full amount. Watch him post again with more disinformation to stay at the tip of the thread |
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i think that the tentative buyers dilemma is unsolvable without causing damage to any group.
therefore i'll refund anyone who is not interested in locking.
lockers will get june's price, up to a total limit of 4.2m tokens. the rest will be refunded.
this can mean that each tentative buyer will get a refund of more than half the btc amount deposited. we'll know better once we finish refunding all nonlockers (or refund askers, though they all got refund promptly already). please let me know asap.
Ohad - is this the final deal? Can I email you my decision knowing this won't move? yes Great thanks for clarifying, I'll email as soon as I'm back at my desk in a few hours. |
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i think that the tentative buyers dilemma is unsolvable without causing damage to any group.
therefore i'll refund anyone who is not interested in locking.
lockers will get june's price, up to a total limit of 4.2m tokens. the rest will be refunded.
this can mean that each tentative buyer will get a refund of more than half the btc amount deposited. we'll know better once we finish refunding all nonlockers (or refund askers, though they all got refund promptly already). please let me know asap.
Ohad - is this the final deal? Can I email you my decision knowing this won't move? |
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It was clear to me the deadline for June pricing was end of the day on 30 June. Anyone that came afterwards it's always been clear to me missed the deadline.
I just want Ohad to say, look, these are the deal terms. Are you in, or are you out?
It is impossible to make everyone happy. Keeping to june pricing, for those who made the deadline, and locking the AGRS distributed at June pricing makes sense to me, but what I want more than anything is just clarity as to what the deal is, so I can decide if I'm in, or if I'm out.
It's time to deal.
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I don't get it. I am a tentative buyer with btc committed. Ohad's terms made sense to me, very much in line with the way public co oversubscribed bookbuilds work.
Ohad - are the deal terms set or not? I am now unclear. I need to decide but I don't want to decide on a moving target.
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june's price is one price, not several groups.
the lock is until the final agoras coins will be ready. the current tokens are just to mark holding on the final ones. this is after tau is ready, then the dev of agoras begins. can take +1y
That's clear and fair thanks tons. I'll reply before the end of my day here in Sydney. What is best way to contact you re decision, PM here? Or email? Thanks again Ohad for facilitating all this. |
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i think that the tentative buyers dilemma is unsolvable without causing damage to any group.
therefore i'll refund anyone who is not interested in locking.
lockers will get june's price, up to a total limit of 4.2m tokens. the rest will be refunded.
this can mean that each tentative buyer will get a refund of more than half the btc amount deposited. we'll know better once we finish refunding all nonlockers (or refund askers, though they all got refund promptly already). please let me know asap.
Great solution, I fully support it. 2 questions 1) the 4.2 million, is that spread across all June pre sale pools? I.e tentative and all others? I'm in the tentative pool so wondering how much allocated to that pool 2) how long is lock up for? Thanks! |
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The more I think about it the more I think there is a need to honour the June spreadsheet prices AND have a lock up, especially for the "tentative" sale. Disclaimer, I contributed to the "tentative" sale and bought some on market, at a loss currently.
The reason is that any price that Ohad mentions here will risk dropping the price on Bittrex. I wouldn't have a problem with that per se, I'm in for the long haul, except that buying on market (which is rational if the price is at or below the direct price) delivers cash to a trader, not to Ohad or the Tau project. Very bad for everyone, except perhaps short term traders!
If you lock up the coins though, there will hopefully (although not guaranteed) be a period where the Bittrex price should trade above the direct sale price, because the Bittrex AGRS are unncumbered, thus making it easy and rational for those of us who are fine to forego near term liquidity on Bittrex and buy at a cheaper (though less liquid) price directly.
So - I propose a one month lock up with June prices and suggest Ohad set a date in clear UTC time by which we give him a YES / NO decision on clear price, lock up time, and supply available terms after which the decision is irreversible and if he doesn't hear back he refunds the contribution.
Allocation % of supply can fluctuate (not price per AGRS tho) depending on final decisions received by the cut off date. But to do this we need clarity as to what total supply is available for the tentative sale.
Thoughts?
dont give a fuck about your loss Thoughts? you're crying to get some cheap coins. Just buy in bittrex Trust me I'm tempted, Bittrex price is looking really attractive. But then neither Ohad nor Tau get that cash, some random trader does. Like maybe you? No gracias  . I'd rather fund the project! P.S. the disclaimer was meant for transparency, it's not a complaint in any way |
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This sort of dilemma won't occur in the future, because a sale like this in the future will take place on Agoras itself, with the rules encoded unambiguosly in a smart contract. We like the idea of smart contracts because it takes human judgement -- which can be swayed by the news and crazy movements on Bittrex -- out of the picture, and is just...fair.
Ohad, it is clear you want to be fair, and look at the big picture and what's best for the project. But I think being moved by what you see happening in the market and second-guessing your original offer is ultimately unfair, mostly to members of this community.
There is concern about fairness to people who bought on Bittrex for a higher price. But if these people lose out, it is *unfortunate*, but not *unfair*. An properly-run exchange is inherently fair. You offer to sell at a price, I offer to buy, we exchange funds as agreed. As long as the rules of the exchange are honored, fair is fair.
What is unfair is if rules are set, and then not respected, at the gain of one and loss of the other.
Keep in mind also that prices on the market could fall tomorrow to $.20. If that happens, not honoring the contract would be incredibly unfair to those who purchase from you at $.66c.
No matter what you decide, and no matter what the market does, there will be winners and losers. But if the original price is not respected for those of us who tentatively purchased in June, the losers will be people like me that have actually been following this project, and scrambled to get some Bitcoin together so they could buy in bulk directly from you in June before the deadline July 1, only to see the rules changed. So it will be unfair *and* mostly hurt people on this forum.
Who would the winners be? You could argue that existing token holders (which I am) will benefit because by raising the price for this tentative sale, we reduce the # of tokens sold (since there is a fixed # of bitcoin sent to the tentative sale address), and therefore reduce supply and put upward pressure on the market price.
But I think this is doubly wrong, if you really think about it. It's an attempt to manipulate the market and raise the price by not honoring the purchase terms originally offered. Plus it probably won't work. It will result in ultimately a very small # of tokens compared to the total supply, so the affect on the market will probably be minimal.
I think the most fair thing for you to do is totally ignore the market, and try to emulate a smart contract.
The more I think about it the more I think there is a need to honour the June spreadsheet prices AND have a lock up, especially for the "tentative" sale. Disclaimer, I contributed to the "tentative" sale and bought some on market, at a loss currently. The reason is that any price that Ohad mentions here will risk dropping the price on Bittrex. I wouldn't have a problem with that per se, I'm in for the long haul, except that buying on market (which is rational if the price is at or below the direct price) delivers cash to a trader, not to Ohad or the Tau project. Very bad for everyone, except perhaps short term traders! If you lock up the coins though, there will hopefully (although not guaranteed) be a period where the Bittrex price should trade above the direct sale price, because the Bittrex AGRS are unncumbered, thus making it easy and rational for those of us who are fine to forego near term liquidity on Bittrex and buy at a cheaper (though less liquid) price directly. So - I propose a one month lock up with June prices and suggest Ohad set a date in clear UTC time by which we give him a YES / NO decision on clear price, lock up time, and supply available terms after which the decision is irreversible and if he doesn't hear back he refunds the contribution. Allocation % of supply can fluctuate (not price per AGRS tho) depending on final decisions received by the cut off date. But to do this we need clarity as to what total supply is available for the tentative sale. Thoughts? |
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Iggy - give it a rest mate trying to trash talk the price down is neither original nor effective
It just gets annoying cause I get email notifications every time you troll and I jump onto BTT hoping for something useful only to find more of your trolling.
Not entirely your fault, BTT is not that flexible or customisable, but mate, you've said your piece ok, time to move on, people will see your posts alright, don't worry.
people have the right to know this information to draw conclusions which are very obvious, i would leave it but he is deleting all my post where i quote him talking about huge price increase, or where i mentioned that we still dont know his identity or that he is not releasing any concrete information because " he is not good at explaining" to people who invested alot of money. People need to know, i dont want people to lose their life savings. Gah! Another post of yours! I'm just asking for a bit of courtesy, please stop cluttering my inbox. After twenty odd posts of yours, trust me, everyone knows yours views. |
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Iggy - give it a rest mate trying to trash talk the price down is neither original nor effective
It just gets annoying cause I get email notifications every time you troll and I jump onto BTT hoping for something useful only to find more of your trolling.
Not entirely your fault, BTT is not that flexible or customisable, but mate, you've said your piece ok, time to move on, people will see your posts alright, don't worry.
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This sort of dilemma won't occur in the future, because a sale like this in the future will take place on Agoras itself, with the rules encoded unambiguosly in a smart contract. We like the idea of smart contracts because it takes human judgement -- which can be swayed by the news and crazy movements on Bittrex -- out of the picture, and is just...fair.
Ohad, it is clear you want to be fair, and look at the big picture and what's best for the project. But I think being moved by what you see happening in the market and second-guessing your original offer is ultimately unfair, mostly to members of this community.
There is concern about fairness to people who bought on Bittrex for a higher price. But if these people lose out, it is *unfortunate*, but not *unfair*. An properly-run exchange is inherently fair. You offer to sell at a price, I offer to buy, we exchange funds as agreed. As long as the rules of the exchange are honored, fair is fair.
What is unfair is if rules are set, and then not respected, at the gain of one and loss of the other.
Keep in mind also that prices on the market could fall tomorrow to $.20. If that happens, not honoring the contract would be incredibly unfair to those who purchase from you at $.66c.
No matter what you decide, and no matter what the market does, there will be winners and losers. But if the original price is not respected for those of us who tentatively purchased in June, the losers will be people like me that have actually been following this project, and scrambled to get some Bitcoin together so they could buy in bulk directly from you in June before the deadline July 1, only to see the rules changed. So it will be unfair *and* mostly hurt people on this forum.
Who would the winners be? You could argue that existing token holders (which I am) will benefit because by raising the price for this tentative sale, we reduce the # of tokens sold (since there is a fixed # of bitcoin sent to the tentative sale address), and therefore reduce supply and put upward pressure on the market price.
But I think this is doubly wrong, if you really think about it. It's an attempt to manipulate the market and raise the price by not honoring the purchase terms originally offered. Plus it probably won't work. It will result in ultimately a very small # of tokens compared to the total supply, so the affect on the market will probably be minimal.
I think the most fair thing for you to do is totally ignore the market, and try to emulate a smart contract.
I completely agree with this and look forward to seeing where this lands. I'm also looking forward to settling this so that Ohad can get back to developing Tau  |
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as promised, following is the status, some discussion, and decisions:
1. ~$2m pending on the tentative sale address. add to that some more funds i got in alts, ~100btc worth.
2. 60% of all tokens were sold (initially we planned to sell no more than 50% before tau is ready), i.e. ~25m tokens out of 42m. that's aside the tentative sale. we decided to dedicate between 3m to 4.2m tokens to the tentatives.
3. june's price was around 16-37 cents, depends on amounts and lock/unlock.
4. curernt market price is ~70c.
5. for unlocked tokens, only, it seems reasonable to distribute 3m tokens for ~$2m, i.e. ~66c a token.
6. locked tokens should get much more discount, beyond the normal 15%, on this case. more towards june's prices.
7. therefore we suggest two rounds:
a. people who are interested in an immediate refund, can ask for it now.
b. people who are interested in locked tokens, let me know, or in the worst case, we'll lock your tokens afterwards.
c. in several hours from now, i'll send to the remaining tentative buyers the unlocked tokens according to 66c cents (and corresponding btc refunds).
d. after we know the amount of money interested in locked tokens, we can offer a price in june's range, with limited supply. the whole over-60% sale will not exceed 4.2m tokens whatsoever (namely a refund will take place accordingly).
Hi Ohad, many thanks for this. There's a bit here for me to digest, and I'm just reading this, it's 6am here in Sydney. I probably won't be able to read all this till tonight away from hungry screaming kids etc. Some questions: 1. How long do we have to decide refund vs take up "tentative" fund offer 2. Say for 1btc in the "tentative" funds, what % of btc would I get back and what % would I receive in AGRS (ie whats the scale back?) 3. If I decide to lock my AGRS tokens from the "tentative" funds, would I get the June price range with discount? Many thanks EDIT: I'm reading through the posts so I'll try to clarify some of my questions. 1. How long do we have to decide? It seems like 23:59 5 July UTC, right? 2. If I accept the locked token offer for btc deposited here (12rcPRK8adxrPN9aQ4xc1gjMAJvBD1GHuw), what is the offer price, and per BTC how much AGRS will I get vs. how much BTC will I be refunded (e.g. will I get 60% per btc refunded because of limited supply?) 3. How long are tokens locked for? 4. If I accept the unlocked token offer for btc deposited here (12rcPRK8adxrPN9aQ4xc1gjMAJvBD1GHuw), per BTC how much AGRS will I get vs. how much BTC will be refunded? 5. What is the best way to communicate my decision re my funds contributed? via PM on this forum or email? Huge thanks! |
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This is incredible to watch.
SO the price jumps 4x in a day becasue all the new tech?
The Whitepaper?
The roadmap?
The demo?
The wallet coin release?
Anything tangible?
NOPE..
Nothing Burger...Chill out CNN But he is right. nothing but speculation of a 10x price increase caused the price to go up. I still don't think this project will go anywhere. I'm not even a troll. Just a regular dude who chased the ride and got burned. Do any of you people do your ------- homework?! Here, let me help: http://tauchain.orgSheesh. And stop being so naive and chasing high volume spikes with NO KNOWLEDGE of what you're doing. This is the first time I chased a coin and I regret it. And what does that website tell me? It hasn't been updated in a long time so I don't know anything new thats going on with the project. Where is a specific timeline telling me when all the projects are going to be done? The last time the project roadmap was updated was Apr 17, 2016, 2:20 AM, well over a year ago. The last time the blog was updated was Sep 10, 2016, 2:28 PM. There have been no new youtube videos. The site needs a MAJOR rebranding. How is that supposed to instill confidence in me as an investor of this shitcoin?
All coins have their go at it...
Poloniex maybe made it less obvious by closing the troll box...
But it just moved to slack... and forums - Pump on any news and especially if low liquidity.
If i was about to ask 10x the price but looked at Bittrex and see i need to spend 5btc to pump it x5, get some excitement so i can sell direct to the public, its honest clear etc.
This is unregulated and the insiders get the advantage... Or one insider in this case.
Everyone hodl hodl, a whitepaper will come out one day.
No need for website and updates if you have belief...I like the idea of Tau but is there a team? No, it disbanded long ago to make a competing platform.
Is there an active Github? is there constant updates video or blog posts? All answer NO...
For anyone saying this is a great project with huge potential, --- who told you that?
What can you describe here to show me the basis on your belief?
I would love to hear an honest view,,, So i can reconsider i am missing some facts..
I do not know any more about this project than anyone else, I know it is based on about 4 youtube videos done a year ago.
But then for me it seems...
Why code... when you can say your coding? Advanced idea???All you bitter nooblets who throw your money around and know absolutely nothing about the market need to shut. the. fuck. up. Go learn how to trade and then come recoup your tuition. Anyone with eyes saw the rise coming and the FOMO and the consequential fall. Doesn't mean this project does not have extraordinary long term potential. There was another ninny bitch complaining he couldn't sell 150,000 AGRS for 15 BTC. Low and behold had he waited until yesterday he would have sold that amount for over 50 BTC. Shut up, stop complaining, and learn from your dumb mistakes. Children. Ohad continue with your mission and ignore the fools. If your referring to me your wrong. My complaints are the fact this is ment to be a sophisticated coin and platform and i was shocked all the hype and the coin release was so dumb, then the pump.. Its a joke... Reflects bad on the project but that is how it is managed. I bought on the super lows, looked today and saw up 130% i sold everything. Great two days - project is up in price and crashing in seriousness. I flipped this as it is looking fake.. I expected or desired more, but it is what it is... I hold quality items for long term when i see what happened here it lost all hope. Still great profits but i feel bad about it. It will be crashing because the morons have moved in.. So are you sharing this to enlighten morons or because you want back in? I can tell you right now, this is what I think of the bids in the Bittrex order book: http://gph.is/1ZPKnZP |
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OOOHH MY GOOODD!!! I BOUGHT AT 30K AND STILL FALLIND DOWN... WE ARE GOING TO HELLL!!!!!!!! OOOHH MY GOD!!!
http://gph.is/1TYKYEMI so wish BTT rendered gifs |
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This is incredible to watch.
SO the price jumps 4x in a day becasue all the new tech?
The Whitepaper?
The roadmap?
The demo?
The wallet coin release?
Anything tangible?
NOPE..
Nothing Burger...Chill out CNN But he is right. nothing but speculation of a 10x price increase caused the price to go up. I still don't think this project will go anywhere. I'm not even a troll. Just a regular dude who chased the ride and got burned. Do any of you people do your ------- homework?! Here, let me help: http://tauchain.orgSheesh. And stop being so naive and chasing high volume spikes with NO KNOWLEDGE of what you're doing. This is the first time I chased a coin and I regret it. And what does that website tell me? It hasn't been updated in a long time so I don't know anything new thats going on with the project. Where is a specific timeline telling me when all the projects are going to be done? The last time the project roadmap was updated was Apr 17, 2016, 2:20 AM, well over a year ago. The last time the blog was updated was Sep 10, 2016, 2:28 PM. There have been no new youtube videos. The site needs a MAJOR rebranding. How is that supposed to instill confidence in me as an investor of this shitcoin? Can't tell if you're trolling or asking to be trolled. Maybe by definition that's the same thing. |
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Guys - don't feed the trolls They've been starving ever since poloniex disabled their trollbox  you have any news about that the price going up or not i invested my all btc in agrs i am so worried about that. Don't feed the trolls!!! https://media4.giphy.com/media/11LWhzTCj1EZj2/giphy.gif |
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Guys - don't feed the trolls They've been starving ever since poloniex disabled their trollbox |
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Some things I did not understand: 1. Is there a minimum contribution? 2. What AGRS / BTC rate will you issue the tokens at? 3. How will you know where to send the tokens? If you just say don't worry we'll work it out that works for me! Thanks for running this sale via forum it's very generous of you to spend the time facilitating it! 1. no 2. to be determined, until max few days after 1st of july. the price will not be forced on anyone. whoever wants a refund (from the "tentative sale" buyers) at any point of time can get it. 3. the tokens will be sent to the address that sent the btc. that's valid only for the tentative sale, to make things fast. and that's why i asked people to send the btc from an omni wallet. Ohad--- On number 2: I dont get it. You guys published a table with prices through July 1 ranging from 0.18 to 0.235 if not mistaken based on the contribution level. why is the price now TBD? through July 1 you should stick to what you said and then change to 10x or whatever as you also said just a few days ago. the bitrex fomo should not affect this decision as it will likely die down as before. But you word is your asset here. this is all relevant only for money that was deposited in june and after 60% were sold. in july there is no active sale until tau/alpha is ready. and we face two conflicting promises: to not sell too many coins, and to sell in june. the problem is too many buyers for too few tokens. these days we think about how is best to resolve it. im open for suggestions. anyone can get a full refund till then. and it cannot take beyond very few days into july (the decision, not the deposits). suggestion 1: stop the sale today as promised, sell based on the pricing table as promised. Fill all orders even if 516BTC as now. IMHO The least problematic promise to break is not to pass the 60% now vs later. In any case you were to sell through 80% at some point (assuming some will be kept for marketing and devs). selling to them now is more beneficial to early supporters who are offering to back the project even before alpha/white paper/github. Later supporters can buy the remaining AGRS from you later at 10x or from exchanges. suggestion 2: as above- but like CIVIC recently, just decide on a percentage of orders to be filled from this temp address (they did 66% from presale orders) and distribute evenly between all BTCs sent (even if passing the 60% threshold a little), based on the promised pricing. so if someone sent 50BTC worth $130k she could actually get 66% or $85800 (based on promised pricing through June) and the rest of her BTC back. whatever number of AGRS it comes to- so be it. good for the ecosystem no? I am agree with you. But Ohad will make much more money by holding tokens, sell them later rather than do it now. Both good suggestions. I am also very confused at this 60% limit, as I thought the goal was to sell as much AGRS as possible this month until July 1, then focus on development. The pump is a bit premature, although sure, as of tomorrow, the price should indeed go up and hold 10x + once the sale is over. If I was Ohad, I would consider a decision and clear up the situation today (perhaps ending sale immediately and refunding all further BTC). But don't leave those of us who sent in the cold, as it may leave a bad taste for the project. I was planning on buying the last day, because I was using the funds elsewhere, so I didn't send funds earlier until I realized the flood of BTC flowing in, and I never clearly noticed a 60% limit for June. I don't remember seeing a plan to "hold" 40% until now for future funding, not that it is a bad idea. Anyways, I sent btc, so perhaps I'm biased I agree this pump has made things a bit perplexing. "I don't remember seeing a plan to "hold" 40% until now for future funding", me too I don't envy Ohad's position right now . . . it's a tough call. In moment's like these I ask myself, what would Tau do? |
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Some things I did not understand: 1. Is there a minimum contribution? 2. What AGRS / BTC rate will you issue the tokens at? 3. How will you know where to send the tokens? If you just say don't worry we'll work it out that works for me! Thanks for running this sale via forum it's very generous of you to spend the time facilitating it! 1. no 2. to be determined, until max few days after 1st of july. the price will not be forced on anyone. whoever wants a refund (from the "tentative sale" buyers) at any point of time can get it. 3. the tokens will be sent to the address that sent the btc. that's valid only for the tentative sale, to make things fast. and that's why i asked people to send the btc from an omni wallet. Ohad--- On number 2: I dont get it. You guys published a table with prices through July 1 ranging from 0.18 to 0.235 if not mistaken based on the contribution level. why is the price now TBD? through July 1 you should stick to what you said and then change to 10x or whatever as you also said just a few days ago. the bitrex fomo should not affect this decision as it will likely die down as before. But you word is your asset here. this is all relevant only for money that was deposited in june and after 60% were sold. in july there is no active sale until tau/alpha is ready. and we face two conflicting promises: to not sell too many coins, and to sell in june. the problem is too many buyers for too few tokens. these days we think about how is best to resolve it. im open for suggestions. anyone can get a full refund till then. and it cannot take beyond very few days into july (the decision, not the deposits). suggestion 1: stop the sale today as promised, sell based on the pricing table as promised. Fill all orders even if 516BTC as now. IMHO The least problematic promise to break is not to pass the 60% now vs later. In any case you were to sell through 80% at some point (assuming some will be kept for marketing and devs). selling to them now is more beneficial to early supporters who are offering to back the project even before alpha/white paper/github. Later supporters can buy the remaining AGRS from you later at 10x or from exchanges. suggestion 2: as above- but like CIVIC recently, just decide on a percentage of orders to be filled from this temp address (they did 66% from presale orders) and distribute evenly between all BTCs sent (even if passing the 60% threshold a little), based on the promised pricing. so if someone sent 50BTC worth $130k she could actually get 66% or $85800 (based on promised pricing through June) and the rest of her BTC back. whatever number of AGRS it comes to- so be it. good for the ecosystem no? I would just add that if anyone is feeling even a little doubtful about the fluidity of this situation, do NOT send any BTC. You can get certainty by just buying on Bittrex. |
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