Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network

[ohad]

We can not re write the rules of auction.

if so then people who came in june need to get june price, no?
(the tentative buyers all came in june)

[martellalex]

It was clear to me the deadline for June pricing was end of the day on 30 June.  Anyone that came afterwards it's always been clear to me missed the deadline.

I just want Ohad to say, look, these are the deal terms.  Are you in, or are you out?

It is impossible to make everyone happy.  Keeping to june pricing, for those who made the deadline, and locking the AGRS distributed at June pricing makes sense to me, but what I want more than anything is just clarity as to what the deal is, so I can decide if I'm in, or if I'm out.

It's time to deal.

[ohad]

We can not re write the rules of auction.

if so then people who came in june need to get june price, no?
(the tentative buyers all came in june)

no. when they came doesnt matter because the refund is still available.

end of june was a deadline. because the sale is over.

its not an 'oversubscribed bookbuild'. you fix the number of locked agoras you are selling at 4.2. currently 808 btc bid. that is still below market.

anyone who is confused, think of your unwanted refunded btc. you will have to pay much more to trade that for agrs on bittrex.

on the other hand, releasing unlocked tokens below market price (which is not a known number) will cause losses to everyone whatsoever.
since i cannot actively cause a loss to anyone, i chose to refund.

[ohad]

hey ohad would you please lock my tokens
I have more in this account that i bought in the market,I have held for about 1 month already. may i send it over to you for .15 discount. Thanks

 good luck

thanks, sorry, as i published yesterday or so, we cannot offer anymore locking existing tokens (due to limited locking bonus supply). but simply don't move them and you'll get partial bonus when time comes

[ohad]

okay, would you please delete this comment? safety concerns. thanks

this is not a moderated thread, i cannot delete. but you can

[ohad]

We can not re write the rules of auction.

if so then people who came in june need to get june price, no?
(the tentative buyers all came in june)

no. when they came doesnt matter because the refund is still available.

end of june was a deadline. because the sale is over.

its not an 'oversubscribed bookbuild'. you fix the number of locked agoras you are selling at 4.2. currently 808 btc bid. that is still below market.

anyone who is confused, think of your unwanted refunded btc. you will have to pay much more to trade that for agrs on bittrex.

on the other hand, releasing unlocked tokens below market price (which is not a known number) will cause losses to everyone whatsoever.
since i cannot actively cause a loss to anyone, i chose to refund.

market price not a known number? market price is most certainly a known number.

you have to fix one of the number of tokens, the amount of money raised, or the price.

if you try to fix two, with two concurrent auctions you make arbitrage. that is what we are trying to avoid.

if you were offer complete or partial refund to tentative sale buyers, which is the situation now, with 4.2 million token to be sold fixed, which is the situation now, and do this iteratively, the price of the sale would approach and eventually equal the market price.

a shorter way to get the same result is for people to get refund and buy on market, no?

[martellalex]

i think that the tentative buyers dilemma is unsolvable without causing damage to any group.
therefore i'll refund anyone who is not interested in locking.
lockers will get june's price, up to a total limit of 4.2m tokens. the rest will be refunded.
this can mean that each tentative buyer will get a refund of more than half the btc amount deposited. we'll know better once we finish refunding all nonlockers (or refund askers, though they all got refund promptly already). please let me know asap.

Ohad - is this the final deal? Can I email you my decision knowing this won't move?

[ohad]

i think that the tentative buyers dilemma is unsolvable without causing damage to any group.
therefore i'll refund anyone who is not interested in locking.
lockers will get june's price, up to a total limit of 4.2m tokens. the rest will be refunded.
this can mean that each tentative buyer will get a refund of more than half the btc amount deposited. we'll know better once we finish refunding all nonlockers (or refund askers, though they all got refund promptly already). please let me know asap.

Ohad - is this the final deal? Can I email you my decision knowing this won't move?

yes

[martellalex]

i think that the tentative buyers dilemma is unsolvable without causing damage to any group.
therefore i'll refund anyone who is not interested in locking.
lockers will get june's price, up to a total limit of 4.2m tokens. the rest will be refunded.
this can mean that each tentative buyer will get a refund of more than half the btc amount deposited. we'll know better once we finish refunding all nonlockers (or refund askers, though they all got refund promptly already). please let me know asap.

Ohad - is this the final deal? Can I email you my decision knowing this won't move?

yes

Great thanks for clarifying, I'll email as soon as I'm back at my desk in a few hours.

[Daleaus]

So who sold there coins at a silly low price and is currently smacking there head against the wall? early days friends.

[alphaomega23]

on the other hand, releasing unlocked tokens below market price (which is not a known number) will cause losses to everyone whatsoever.
since i cannot actively cause a loss to anyone, i chose to refund.

Ohad, I honestly think you are mistaken about the consequences of releasing tokens below market price.

Suppose I purchased an option to buy 100 bitcoin at $1 years ago. If I exercise that option now, will it affect the price of bitcoin? Not at all. It will make me a lot of money (at the cost of the seller), but it will not increase the supply of bitcoin and therefore not affect the market.

You are correct however that locking these additional 4.2m tokens, will reduce short-term supply and push the price upwards. But, this all evens out. Since these tokens are only locked temporarily, they will push the price down when they are unlocked in the future.

It's a question of affecting the market now or later. But do you really want to be manipulating the market at all?

In the future, when Tauchain and then Agoras are released, prices will go way way up. We'll all forget the temporary dips in market price.

But what some of us won't forget is that we almost got into Agoras early, but we didn't. We could have bought at $.376, and we were so close, but the terms changed at the last minute, or we chickened out and asked for a refund, and we'll never forgive ourselves.

The generous thing to do here would be liberal in your interpretation of the offer, and let everybody who beat the July 1 in on the June terms, period. Be a little more inclusive, make the club of lucky early-Agoras buyers a little bigger. I think it will help a lot more people than it hurts.

[ohad]

on the other hand, releasing unlocked tokens below market price (which is not a known number) will cause losses to everyone whatsoever.
since i cannot actively cause a loss to anyone, i chose to refund.

Suppose I purchased an option to buy 100 bitcoin at $1 years ago. If I exercise that option now, will it affect the price of bitcoin? Not at all. It will make me a lot of money (at the cost of the seller), but it will not increase the supply of bitcoin and therefore not affect the market.

there's a big difference. locked tokens are released to an economy which is based on real intrinsic value (like knowledge or computational resources). the price of renting computers is known. on the actual agoras market (when the full product is ready), the value cannot depend too much on merely expectations. besides, when the final coins are ready, the sale will no longer continue

[lelouchzero]

Encouraging everyone to hop on the zennet IRC and talk as well on there.

[alphaomega23]

You are correct however that locking these additional 4.2m tokens, will reduce short-term supply and push the price upwards. But, this all evens out. Since these tokens are only locked temporarily, they will push the price down when they are unlocked in the future.

It's a question of affecting the market now or later. But do you really want to be manipulating the market at all?

What's more, a more effective way of pushing up the market price, if you really want to do this, would be to burn some unsold tokens.

If you burned say 4.2m unsold tokens, you could fulfill all tentative purchases, at June prices, locked or unlocked, and at the same time push the market price upwards (at least in the long term -- there's no telling what this would do in the short term).

The only downside is that burning tokens would reduce the amount of funds you can raise by selling these tokens in the future. But I imagine you are going to be able to raise far more than you need for you and the project going forward.

[ohad]

burning instead of selling will cause loss of people. people can buy money, but money cannot buy people

[Winslow Strong]

june's price is one price, not several groups.
the lock is until the final agoras coins will be ready. the current tokens are just to mark holding on the final ones. this is after tau is ready, then the dev of agoras begins. can take +1y

I'd like to be totally clear on this deal.

Could you name exactly what the June price is? And if it will be reduced for large purchases (as it was in June)?

So Tau must be ready for release before tokens are unlocked.  That is clear.  But will the token be available when Tau is ready, or only after Agora is ready (which will take more time)?

Is the +1 year estimate the estimate for when the tokens will be available?

[fayzaan]

Hello Ohad,

I would like to offer my services. Currently a lead front-end developer for a company, building a web application. Have experience with Javascript, HTML, AngularJS, ReactJS, NodeJS, Java, Postgresql, MySQL, PHP, Docker, Grunt, Gulp, etc.

you can check me out on GitHub and Stackoverflow under fayzaan.

I can help with building a new website and also help with programming. I can work for agoras tokens instead of cash. I have already invested 8500 tokens and bought at around .70/.90usd. I was really hoping it would go to $4/$5 so I could pay off some debts but oh well..

thanks

[medstudent]

burning instead of selling will cause loss of people. people can buy money, but money cannot buy people

I disagree to an extent.

Burning the unsold tokens will show you keep your word. And secondly, the higher the price is in the market, the more interest the project will generate in the long run.

I don't agree with burning 4.2 million coins though. A tenth of that amount would seem fair.

But it seems like you sold all coins this month, so shouldn't be any burning this month.

[IggySe7ven]

i think that the tentative buyers dilemma is unsolvable without causing damage to any group.
therefore i'll refund anyone who is not interested in locking.
lockers will get june's price, up to a total limit of 4.2m tokens. the rest will be refunded.
this can mean that each tentative buyer will get a refund of more than half the btc amount deposited. we'll know better once we finish refunding all nonlockers (or refund askers, though they all got refund promptly already). please let me know asap.

WOW this dude is only promising to refund half of  whatever people bought,  once again, makes new sh1t up, why didnt u say you will refund half during the sale, when someone says you get a refund it is automatically expected to be full unless specified,

what a scam artist,  this guys word means nothing.

[martellalex]

i think that the tentative buyers dilemma is unsolvable without causing damage to any group.
therefore i'll refund anyone who is not interested in locking.
lockers will get june's price, up to a total limit of 4.2m tokens. the rest will be refunded.
this can mean that each tentative buyer will get a refund of more than half the btc amount deposited. we'll know better once we finish refunding all nonlockers (or refund askers, though they all got refund promptly already). please let me know asap.

WOW this dude is only promising to refund half of  whatever people bought,  once again, makes new sh1t up, why didnt u say you will refund half during the sale, when someone says you get a refund it is automatically expected to be full unless specified,

what a scam artist,  this guys word means nothing.

In case anyone has missed this, Iggy7en appears to be spamming.  Contributors can still withdraw their full amount.  Watch him post again with more disinformation to stay at the tip of the thread