DEA Agents in Silk Road Case Face Fraud Charges

[Denker]

Live by the fed sword, get rekt by it in the end when you think your expertise is too high.

I've got to say that I'm very surprised that these guys went rogue like this when they had such great jobs, thinking they could pull this move and get away with it. Unless, they were sold on the anonymity factor that really doesn't exist. I think hubris did them in and I feel for their families at this point.

Greed!Greed!Greed!

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[Its About Sharing]

I'm not sure I've got this straight, but it's likely that the investigation into actions of these agents has been going on for some time. If so, then as Ulbricht's trial was going on, the federal government knew that it likely had a big mess on its hands internally.

So is it reasonable/possible that they worked hard to scrub the prosecution's case to keep it clean of any evidence of contamination from Force and Bridges? If so then Ulbricht's conviction may hold up. But if they did not do this and evidence from their activities was used, then it looks like he may have a serious opening.

That possibility you just mentioned sure does fit like well fitting glove, now doesn't it? I believe when I saw the trial notes that is when I really started to question
the case. Though going in I couldn't imagine the trial would be fair.

For sure they will do everything in their illegal and legal powers to make sure Ulbricht doesn't go free. But that said, the case can
fall apart and would be even beyond corruptions manipulative hands. They are on their heels now. This is not small thing.
I would not at all be shocked at a Dismissal, but they can't have dancing in the streets, now can they?
And they sure as Eternal Life don't want a made for TV movie or series, ending where he gets let go and the war on drugs basically collapses a few months later.  

It looks like a "well fitting glove," because it's something done very frequently in federal prosecution.

Let me sketch out an example of how this is done.

Let's say a confession is take from a suspect in violation of their Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination and Miranda v. Arizona. The government cannot use that confession in court. Moreover, the government prosecutors cannot use any of the fruit of that confession. So the government regularly will set up two teams of law enforcement and prosecutors. A so-called "taint team," that knows the confession, and a "trial team" that takes case to trial. The taint team screens all the evidence to make sure it isn't tainted with the unconstitutional confession, and then gives the untained evidence to the trial team.

While a procedure quite as rigorous as that would not have been necessary here, because there is no unconstitutional taint, I bring it up to demonstrate that federal prosecutors are familiar with segregating different components into different teams in order to avoid similar problems.

Thanks a lot for sharing that info. It helps to better understand things.

Has anyone seen any legal experts comment publicly on the case now?

[Blackbird0]

Thanks a lot for sharing that info. It helps to better understand things.

Has anyone seen any legal experts comment publicly on the case now?

No problem.

I saw that the government made some filings yesterday/today. There's more than 100 pages, including the government response. I'll take a gander at reading it and post something here.

[Whitehouse]

I think hubris did them in and I feel for their families at this point.

How about the families of the lives he interfered with during his Career, I am sure many others suffered unjustly as a result of FORCE's conduct.

It's likely he's been doing things like this for a long time, only this time he got caught. The brazen way he did it all was the sign of a man who'd done it over and over and never gotten caught.

I don't think anyone will argue that cops are superhuman. The PoPo is just as human and just as fallible as anyone in any other profession. You are correct. He was a person of low moral and ethical standards because that's who he has always been. You can give all the psych evaluations you want to cops and there will always be kooks that slip through the net. Bad cops don't worry me. The most they can do is kill a few people. Air Force pilots flying around and submarines sailing around with live nuclear warheads scares me. Not a happy thought.

For all we know he could have been a great and lawful officer for 99.9% of his career but we must remember than everyone has a price and can succumb to greed. Maybe he just saw the opportunity to make some easy and what he thought would be victimless cash. When you're sat at your computer and all it takes is a few clicks to transfer massive amounts of anonymous money from a drug lord greed can always fall over you, but that's obviously not excusing it. In this line of work you need to have some restraint or you'll push yourself down a dark path and he's obviously facing the consequences of those actions now.

[Blackbird0]

Alright.

I've taken a gander at the recent pleadings filed. Let me begin with the caveat that these are just my thoughts, and they are obviously based on incomplete information, both because I don't have all the pleadings, and some of them of these recently unsealed pleadings still have redactions.

I'll summarize the government's position as to the problems with the defense's argument:

The defense's argument is essentially that account "flush" which had admin access, was used to plant evidence that Ulbricht was DPR. Force (the DEA agent) had access to the "flush" account. As we call may recall, "flush" was controlled by Green, who was the target of the murder-for-hire that "nob" (aka SA Force) and DPR were involved in. Green subsequently cooperated with the government, which is how SA Force got access to the "flush" account. This have happened on Jan. 19, 2013, which was subsequent to his arrest on Jan. 17, 2013.

These are problems with this theory:

• There is evidence on Ulbricht's computer linking him to DPR long before the SA Force had access to "flush," and long after. Ulbricht locked out the "flush" account on Jan. 26, 2013.
• Even assuming that "flush" reset the DPR account and then planed info using it somehow, Ulbricht always had root access to the server, and could have regained control.
• DPR signed communications with a PGP key that was on Ulbricht's computer. SA Force, with access to "flush" or even the DPR account, could never have gotten the private PGP key.

Judge Forrest considered an extremely broad discovery request by defense. Judge Forrest did not accept the defense argument's that this information is exculpatory, though the defense's arguments are redacted in the order. Ultimately, the only new information is that SA Force was being investigated, and that the previously known fact that "flush" may have stolen 350K worth of BTC was already known to DPR and to the defense.

Ultimately, defense always was able to put on its theories regarding technical capabilities, and it didn't need any of the SA Force information to do so. (That they didn't do so because of their ludicrously late expert disclosures, is, of course, another matter.).

***

Really, I think the best argument that defense could have had was to delay the trial. But I would think such an issue would be reviewed under an abuse of discretion standard, and J. Forrest's decision would be upheld, particularly in light of the information known at the time of these December 2014 motions. It seems particularly unlikely to succeed before Defense didn't make any kind of argument with particularity as to what exculpatory information would be uncovered during the Force investigation.

***

Subsequent to this, defense tried to bring the SA Force thing back into play by attempting to admit hearsay evidence from "DeathFromAbove" (aka Force) to DPR on the SR messaging system where "DeathFromAbove" accused DPR of being a Mr. Athavale. It's clearly hearsay, and J. Forrest rightly excludes it. All other evidence linking Athavale to DPR was highly circumstantial and speculative. Moreover, other evidence demonstrates that DPR did not take DeathFromAbove's threats seriously, and that the identifying of him was "bogus."

[QuestionAuthority]

I think hubris did them in and I feel for their families at this point.

How about the families of the lives he interfered with during his Career, I am sure many others suffered unjustly as a result of FORCE's conduct.

It's likely he's been doing things like this for a long time, only this time he got caught. The brazen way he did it all was the sign of a man who'd done it over and over and never gotten caught.

I don't think anyone will argue that cops are superhuman. The PoPo is just as human and just as fallible as anyone in any other profession. You are correct. He was a person of low moral and ethical standards because that's who he has always been. You can give all the psych evaluations you want to cops and there will always be kooks that slip through the net. Bad cops don't worry me. The most they can do is kill a few people. Air Force pilots flying around and submarines sailing around with live nuclear warheads scares me. Not a happy thought.

For all we know he could have been a great and lawful officer for 99.9% of his career but we must remember than everyone has a price and can succumb to greed. Maybe he just saw the opportunity to make some easy and what he thought would be victimless cash. When you're sat at your computer and all it takes is a few clicks to transfer massive amounts of anonymous money from a drug lord greed can always fall over you, but that's obviously not excusing it. In this line of work you need to have some restraint or you'll push yourself down a dark path and he's obviously facing the consequences of those actions now.

Maybe but I still believe that some people can guard a truckload of cash their entire life and never be tempted because it's not in their makeup. People with no integrity and no morals take the first opportunity to prove themselves if they think they can get away with it.

[Whitehouse]

For all we know he could have been a great and lawful officer for 99.9% of his career but we must remember than everyone has a price and can succumb to greed. Maybe he just saw the opportunity to make some easy and what he thought would be victimless cash. When you're sat at your computer and all it takes is a few clicks to transfer massive amounts of anonymous money from a drug lord greed can always fall over you, but that's obviously not excusing it. In this line of work you need to have some restraint or you'll push yourself down a dark path and he's obviously facing the consequences of those actions now.

Maybe but I still believe that some people can guard a truckload of cash their entire life and never be tempted because it's not in their makeup. People with no integrity and no morals take the first opportunity to prove themselves if they think they can get away with it.

Hard to tell. To others they may appear trustworthy but nobody can no for certain if they ever had doubts about stealing the money. I think greed is just part of being human and everyone can succumb to it at some point regardless of how moral you may or try to be. Sometimes situations pop up in your life that alter your morals or behavior too. What if a person becomes in debt or needs it to save a child etc? Desperate measures sometimes call for desperate measures.

[QuestionAuthority]

For all we know he could have been a great and lawful officer for 99.9% of his career but we must remember than everyone has a price and can succumb to greed. Maybe he just saw the opportunity to make some easy and what he thought would be victimless cash. When you're sat at your computer and all it takes is a few clicks to transfer massive amounts of anonymous money from a drug lord greed can always fall over you, but that's obviously not excusing it. In this line of work you need to have some restraint or you'll push yourself down a dark path and he's obviously facing the consequences of those actions now.

Maybe but I still believe that some people can guard a truckload of cash their entire life and never be tempted because it's not in their makeup. People with no integrity and no morals take the first opportunity to prove themselves if they think they can get away with it.

Hard to tell. To others they may appear trustworthy but nobody can no for certain if they ever had doubts about stealing the money. I think greed is just part of being human and everyone can succumb to it at some point regardless of how moral you may or try to be. Sometimes situations pop up in your life that alter your morals or behavior too. What if a person becomes in debt or needs it to save a child etc? Desperate measures sometimes call for desperate measures.

Just look at how monkeys and apes behave. If you've ever encountered monkeys in the wild you'll know they're incredibly greedy, they'll steel your camera, wallet, whatever they can get without even knowing what those things are. Greed is clearly in our DNA, but that doesn't make it acceptable.

That is true, I've seen it myself. I used to live in Oakland.

[Its About Sharing]

For all we know he could have been a great and lawful officer for 99.9% of his career but we must remember than everyone has a price and can succumb to greed. Maybe he just saw the opportunity to make some easy and what he thought would be victimless cash. When you're sat at your computer and all it takes is a few clicks to transfer massive amounts of anonymous money from a drug lord greed can always fall over you, but that's obviously not excusing it. In this line of work you need to have some restraint or you'll push yourself down a dark path and he's obviously facing the consequences of those actions now.

Maybe but I still believe that some people can guard a truckload of cash their entire life and never be tempted because it's not in their makeup. People with no integrity and no morals take the first opportunity to prove themselves if they think they can get away with it.

Hard to tell. To others they may appear trustworthy but nobody can no for certain if they ever had doubts about stealing the money. I think greed is just part of being human and everyone can succumb to it at some point regardless of how moral you may or try to be. Sometimes situations pop up in your life that alter your morals or behavior too. What if a person becomes in debt or needs it to save a child etc? Desperate measures sometimes call for desperate measures.

Just look at how monkeys and apes behave. If you've ever encountered monkeys in the wild you'll know they're incredibly greedy, they'll steel your camera, wallet, whatever they can get without even knowing what those things are. Greed is clearly in our DNA, but that doesn't make it acceptable.

I'd say greed is just a lack of understanding. This is more a consciousness "thing" than a genetic one (at this stage in our development).
We've been sold on Survival of the Fittest, when it is in actuality Flourishing though Cooperation.

[QuestionAuthority]

For all we know he could have been a great and lawful officer for 99.9% of his career but we must remember than everyone has a price and can succumb to greed. Maybe he just saw the opportunity to make some easy and what he thought would be victimless cash. When you're sat at your computer and all it takes is a few clicks to transfer massive amounts of anonymous money from a drug lord greed can always fall over you, but that's obviously not excusing it. In this line of work you need to have some restraint or you'll push yourself down a dark path and he's obviously facing the consequences of those actions now.

Maybe but I still believe that some people can guard a truckload of cash their entire life and never be tempted because it's not in their makeup. People with no integrity and no morals take the first opportunity to prove themselves if they think they can get away with it.

Hard to tell. To others they may appear trustworthy but nobody can no for certain if they ever had doubts about stealing the money. I think greed is just part of being human and everyone can succumb to it at some point regardless of how moral you may or try to be. Sometimes situations pop up in your life that alter your morals or behavior too. What if a person becomes in debt or needs it to save a child etc? Desperate measures sometimes call for desperate measures.

Just look at how monkeys and apes behave. If you've ever encountered monkeys in the wild you'll know they're incredibly greedy, they'll steel your camera, wallet, whatever they can get without even knowing what those things are. Greed is clearly in our DNA, but that doesn't make it acceptable.

That is true, I've seen it myself. I used to live in Oakland.

Bro I'm talking about literal monkeys. A monkey stole my friend's camera out of his boat while he was traveling in the Amazon. Snuck up to the boat, grabbed the camera and booked it outta there

Yeah, so am I. I lived near the park in downtown Oakland. The Oakland zoo was a short walk from my house and has a free community day once a month. I used to go to the zoo every month and watch them. That was my favorate exhibit. I'd watch the monkeys for hours.

[duckydonald]

ILMAO cause you guys are talking about monkeys

[moriartybitcoin]

why should we be so surprised when agents of the government steal? The whole government is a ponzi scheme anyway

[Tomatocage]

I just want to add one little-known detail:

CarlForce is the brother of ArtForz.

Can we get some citation for this?

[timk225]

I never considered myself to be a bad person, but I will admit that my morals and ethics are somewhat.... flexible.  If I ever came across some Bitcoins or cash, there's a good chance I'd be considering the options.  Would I get caught, did anyone see me, are there security cameras, etc.

I never understand why these FBI guys, of all people, would keep the money in banks and accounts, even in foreign countries.  If I ever got my chance to obtain a lot of Bitcoins, it would be converted to cash at the first opportunity, and places in short pieces of PVC pipe, sealed up, and buried in various locations.  In cash, no records, no one knows where it is.  Minimal evidence pointing to me.

There's a time to be good, honest, moral, and ethical, and then there's a time to GRAB THE MONEY.

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

It looks like a "well fitting glove," because it's something done very frequently in federal prosecution.

Thanks for your insights in to this complex issue. I understand entirely your points viz the separation of the two cases.

I'm surprised that the informed view is that the involvement of corrupt DEA officers in one part of the case could be so insulated from other areas to the degree that a person has been denied their right to freedom.

I always believed there was a higher standard expected from state prosecutors, but seemingly no longer.

[galdur]

Dirty cops? No way... Too thin by a mile. The only thing this Silk Road drama needs to make a full feature film is a dirty politician and a love interest. Good luck, g

[GeminiSimba]

I just want to come in and say that it's not that everyone has a price, it's that people who feel they lack a certain level of well being have a price. Do you think you'd be able to corrupt Bill Gates? Ok granted some billionaires seem corrupt bit it's not that they are corruptible it's that they now have the power to corrupt others (by swinging the carrot of cash in front of them). I think there is a middle ground where you are not so broke that you can easily be corrupted and you are not so rich that you want to corrupt the world to fit your needs. In essence if people who worked certain risky jobs were actually paid their worth and not pennies there would probably be less corruption.

So I just wanted to say the system needs to be fixed so that more people make a decent living wage if you want to lower incidents of corrupted cops, workers and misc serviceman. That's just my 2 cents ^_^

[Blackbird0]

It looks like a "well fitting glove," because it's something done very frequently in federal prosecution.

Thanks for your insights in to this complex issue. I understand entirely your points viz the separation of the two cases.

I'm surprised that the informed view is that the involvement of corrupt DEA officers in one part of the case could be so insulated from other areas to the degree that a person has been denied their right to freedom.

I always believed there was a higher standard expected from state prosecutors, but seemingly no longer.

Well ... from what the government says, the DEA Team in Baltimore didn't give any evidence to the DEA Team in New York. So yes, it sounds insulated.

[jc01480]

I just want to come in and say that it's not that everyone has a price, it's that people who feel they lack a certain level of well being have a price. Do you think you'd be able to corrupt Bill Gates? Ok granted some billionaires seem corrupt bit it's not that they are corruptible it's that they now have the power to corrupt others (by swinging the carrot of cash in front of them). I think there is a middle ground where you are not so broke that you can easily be corrupted and you are not so rich that you want to corrupt the world to fit your needs. In essence if people who worked certain risky jobs were actually paid their worth and not pennies there would probably be less corruption.

So I just wanted to say the system needs to be fixed so that more people make a decent living wage if you want to lower incidents of corrupted cops, workers and misc serviceman. That's just my 2 cents ^_^

I partially agree.  The problem is that there is no way to see into a man's heart (forgive the lack of gender neutrality) no matter the level of scrutiny.  Therefore, even the saint of saints cannot be validated as incorruptible.  The public is becoming more AWARE every day that a badge does not an honest person make.  The courts are beginning to acknowledge this as well.  Man, I could share some crazy stories about police corruption at any level (local, state, or federal).  Believe it or not, this isn't a new phenomenon, it's merely being recognized more so than before.

[blablaace]

corrupt feds, what's new?  Maybe Ulrbicht will get a new trial out of this