DEA Agents in Silk Road Case Face Fraud Charges

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

Seems to me that 2 crocked DEA agents were at the steering wheel for large periods of time while these crimes were being perpetrated. They should have offered Ross a plea, secured a conviction on lesser charges and then concentrated on nailing these agents.  Seems they did it the other way round.

My understanding is that the DEA agent had the one admin account for only a few days.

Once you have an appropriate admin access to a system, it is very easy to ensure you can have continued access. I still have (unseen) access to servers that I worked on 8 years ago. Not due to any maliciousness on my part, but simple laziness and lack of skills of the admins at the time.

Also, I think I was conflating access to servers for running SR and its forums with access to Ross' personal computer.

I don't deny anything you say. Ultimately the issues comes down to: who is going to say what in court. What could Ulbricht do? Bring in a sysadmin as an expert to talk generally about server access? I can understand a judge being very leery of opening the door on all this stuff for such unsubstantiated speculation.

Gov filed its response brief to the motion for a new trial. It's 150 pages, but maybe I can take a look over the weekend. I'm sure it'll be an interesting read.

It certainly would!!  Listen, thanks again for the time you put into explaining this from a ( evidently well trained) legal perspective. With so much uninformed opinion out there, itd important to keep things grounded in facts, and not emotions. 

[1714577620]

1714577620

[1714577620]

1714577620

[1714577620]

1714577620

[Blackbird0]

I don't deny anything you say. Ultimately the issues comes down to: who is going to say what in court. What could Ulbricht do? Bring in a sysadmin as an expert to talk generally about server access? I can understand a judge being very leery of opening the door on all this stuff for such unsubstantiated speculation.

Gov filed its response brief to the motion for a new trial. It's 150 pages, but maybe I can take a look over the weekend. I'm sure it'll be an interesting read.

It certainly would!!  Listen, thanks again for the time you put into explaining this from a ( evidently well trained) legal perspective. With so much uninformed opinion out there, itd important to keep things grounded in facts, and not emotions. 

Thank you kindly! Happy to provide what commentary I can. I'm no techie who can comment on all the ins and outs of bitcoin development, so I'm happy to contribute how I can to the community!

[Blackbird0]

Incidentally, this artechnica article sums it all up pretty well from the legal perspective: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/op-ed-prosecution-of-corrupt-silk-road-feds-wont-help-ross-ulbricht/

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

Incidentally, this artechnica article sums it all up pretty well from the legal perspective: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/op-ed-prosecution-of-corrupt-silk-road-feds-wont-help-ross-ulbricht/

Except that its written by a CS geek, not a beak.   

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

....with Justin Timberlake as Ross Ulbricht.

[ElectricMucus]

Incidentally, this artechnica article sums it all up pretty well from the legal perspective: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/op-ed-prosecution-of-corrupt-silk-road-feds-wont-help-ross-ulbricht/

No, I don't mean the blockchain, but rather a mental virus: it seems to corrupt almost everyone who touches it. It appears that a couple of federal investigators, in the process of attempting to take down the Silk Road, succumbed to this virus, allegedly stealing millions through various schemes.

True that's why I'm still here, it's fucking hilarious.
But I'm glad that even some out of the press now realize this.

[The Bitcoin Co-op]

It's a joke, is what it is. An insult to the very concept of justice. DPR is still a bad person, but a fair judicial system would give him a retrial. Look at all of this evidence that wasn't presented.

[AGD]

Is it somehow possible for Dratel to proof that the relevant files (journal, chat logs etc) from Ross Ulbrichts computer were planted/altered?

Is there a way for the defense to obtain Ross' harddisks and let professial forensics check logfiles on his computer for troians, viruses, connections, hacking attempts (exploits, RDP, VNC etc)? I don't think that the FBI was searching for these. Would be counterproductive with their case against Ross.

[OpenOcean]

Goes to show that the government is not clear of crooks itself.

[Its About Sharing]

It's a joke, is what it is. An insult to the very concept of justice. DPR is still a bad person, but a fair judicial system would give him a retrial. Look at all of this evidence that wasn't presented.

It has been argued for years how the war on drugs has been a direct attack on people, in particular those from lower socio economic backgrounds. And now, 100's of 1000's of people might be saying goodbye to prisons as Cannabis laws are changed, and other laws to follow.

I find it interesting that in your words "DPR is still a bad person" when his history is anything but and he was trying to do his part to end the war on drugs. Or are you judging him on the charges that have been dropped, except for one local? Regardless, those are charges. It seems like people care more about laws, than actual morals or compassion regarding issues. If that continues to be true, the future does not look bright. I see people arguing for laws and ignoring their hearts. That, in part, is how we have been manipulated to where we currently are.

Think with your minds all you want, but don't forget your hearts as well. It is what, in part, makes us human BEINGS.

[Whitehouse]

It's a joke, is what it is. An insult to the very concept of justice. DPR is still a bad person, but a fair judicial system would give him a retrial. Look at all of this evidence that wasn't presented.

I find it interesting that in your words "DPR is still a bad person" when his history is anything but and he was trying to do his part to end the war on drugs. Or are you judging him on the charges that have been dropped, except for one local? Regardless, those are charges. It seems like people care more about laws, than actual morals or compassion regarding issues. If that continues to be true, the future does not look bright. I see people arguing for laws and ignoring their hearts. That, in part, is how we have been manipulated to where we currently are.

You could probably argue Mexican Drug Cartels are doing their bit to end the war on drugs too. I wouldn't have an issue with DPR if he was true to his word and set up Silk Road as a revolutionary and libertarian idea, but to me it seems very likely he ordered hits on people and then tried to blame it on Mark Karpales which I'm very skeptical he had anything to do with it. People seem to be ignoring many of his unscrupulous acts which invalidate everything else he's done imo.

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

You could probably argue Mexican Drug Cartels are doing their bit to end the war on drugs too.

No, you probably couldn't. Criminal drug cartels are a direct consequence of the war on drugs. Up to the 1980's, many drugs from Columbia and Ecuador were collected though ad-hoc farmers co-ops, run at local levels.  The war on drugs increased the money flowing through this system to make it attractive to criminals, and then phychotic criminals. Without a 'war', the drug market is no different from other legal drugs, such as alcohol or tobacco. Look at prohibition in the US as an example of how criminality involves itself in trade that becomes proscibed.

I wouldn't have an issue with DPR if he was true to his word and set up Silk Road as a revolutionary and libertarian idea, but to me it seems very likely he ordered hits on people...

SR was set up as a business, an exchange to facilitate buyers who wanted product and sellers who wished to sell. Thats as revolutionary as it gets. In most cases, there is nothing wrong with that, where it doesnt get out of hand. illegal, yes, but a threat to society, no.
The alleged talk of 'hits' only seems to have become an issue once some physco DEA guys got involved on the scene. They seem to have initiated (through the theft) and fuelled this aspect of the case. That is why it is now "dead in the water", to quote the article. Nice.

People seem to be ignoring many of his unscrupulous acts which invalidate...everything else he's done imo.

Unscrupulous being "not honest or fair"? I would say that pretty much summarises the DEA's role in this case.

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

Incidentally, this artechnica article sums it all up pretty well from the legal perspective: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/op-ed-prosecution-of-corrupt-silk-road-feds-wont-help-ross-ulbricht/

Actually, in retrospect, that is not in fact a good article. Its an Op-Ed, so its merely an opinion of someone who has no legal experience, on what is purely a legal matter.
Secondly, the author makes no effort to hide his partisan view. the following is not typical of a 'balanced' outlook:

These filings also shows just the amazing lows defense attorney Joshua Dratel would sink to in defending his client: he really does deserve the Saul Goodman award for lawyering above and beyond the call of duty.

This is a reprehensible statement to make in the context of a legal case. One of the primary tenets of Justice is that everyone gets a fair trial, and its the duty of ones council to provide this, irrespective of their guilt or innocence.

The authors use of such language in the piece identifies him as no better than the tinhats who blindly cry foul without taking time to examine the facts. He's a looney, just from the other side.

Also, his analysis is hardly insightful - several of his points are either direct quotes or paraphrases of the prosecution case unsealed during the week. We still need a legal opinion on this.

[Its About Sharing]

Before this gets out of hand with heartless logic, don't forget your roots.

[Whitehouse]

You could probably argue Mexican Drug Cartels are doing their bit to end the war on drugs too.

No, you probably couldn't. Criminal drug cartels are a direct consequence of the war on drugs. Up to the 1980's, many drugs from Columbia and Ecuador were collected though ad-hoc farmers co-ops, run at local levels.  The war on drugs increased the money flowing through this system to make it attractive to criminals, and then phychotic criminals. Without a 'war', the drug market is no different from other legal drugs, such as alcohol or tobacco. Look at prohibition in the US as an example of how criminality involves itself in trade that becomes proscibed.

Then surely Silk Road is also a direct consequence of the war on drugs? When you try prohibit anything it will always create a black market. I think the true libertarian revolutionaries with regards to the drug or free market will be the people creating the decentralized exchanges. It will be interesting to see how Law Enforcement tries tackling them with no central authority to go after.

Before this gets out of hand with heartless logic, don't forget your roots.

I think you should apply this wider... question everything.

[The Bitcoin Co-op]

DPR was not good. Look at what has been proven about him:

1. He can be easily manipulated by government agents
2. He can be manipulated into ordering violence

That's a combination of things that could get an innocent Bitcoiner hurt. Did the person he was driven to want assassinated actually steal anything?

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

You could probably argue Mexican Drug Cartels are doing their bit to end the war on drugs too.

No, you probably couldn't. Criminal drug cartels are a direct consequence of the war on drugs. Up to the 1980's, many drugs from Columbia and Ecuador were collected though ad-hoc farmers co-ops, run at local levels.  The war on drugs increased the money flowing through this system to make it attractive to criminals, and then phychotic criminals. Without a 'war', the drug market is no different from other legal drugs, such as alcohol or tobacco. Look at prohibition in the US as an example of how criminality involves itself in trade that becomes proscibed.

Then surely Silk Road is also a direct consequence of the war on drugs? When you try prohibit anything it will always create a black market.

No argument from me on that point, very probably. Human being are fundamentally rational, and react to irrational behavior in novel, rational ways.

For me, I want my government to pick dog crap off the streets, keep the lights on, fill in holes on the highway. Thats what its for. When government starts thinking its a new religon, dictating its idea of whats moral and whats not and enforcing it, then we run into problems.  For many centuries, Common Law  did a fine job of ensuring society ran well. But now its replaced with written laws, that become more complex and partisan with every generation.

Im not saying its all bad, but we seem to have lost our sense of balance. Everything is now polarized. Fundamentalist thought seems to rule the day. Society seems to have been dumbed down to the point where they can only understand concepts in terms of black or white. On or off. All the work of the great philosophers of ancient times sem to have ebeen forgotten.

 I think its time for the "middle majority" to start being more vocal. But of course, they probably won't. 

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

DPR was not good. Look at what has been proven about him:

1. He can be easily manipulated by government agents
2. He can be manipulated into ordering violence

That's a combination of things that could get an innocent Bitcoiner hurt. Did the person he was driven to want assassinated actually steal anything?

Are you just trolling? If yes, then, Bravo! I like your sarcasm.   

[Blackbird0]

Is it somehow possible for Dratel to proof that the relevant files (journal, chat logs etc) from Ross Ulbrichts computer were planted/altered?

Is there a way for the defense to obtain Ross' harddisks and let professial forensics check logfiles on his computer for troians, viruses, connections, hacking attempts (exploits, RDP, VNC etc)? I don't think that the FBI was searching for these. Would be counterproductive with their case against Ross.

I presume that defense received all these things in discovery, either in the form of forensic copies of the hard drives, and/or permission to inspect the originals.

[Blackbird0]

Incidentally, this artechnica article sums it all up pretty well from the legal perspective: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/op-ed-prosecution-of-corrupt-silk-road-feds-wont-help-ross-ulbricht/

Actually, in retrospect, that is not in fact a good article. Its an Op-Ed, so its merely an opinion of someone who has no legal experience, on what is purely a legal matter.
Secondly, the author makes no effort to hide his partisan view. the following is not typical of a 'balanced' outlook:

These filings also shows just the amazing lows defense attorney Joshua Dratel would sink to in defending his client: he really does deserve the Saul Goodman award for lawyering above and beyond the call of duty.

This is a reprehensible statement to make in the context of a legal case. One of the primary tenets of Justice is that everyone gets a fair trial, and its the duty of ones council to provide this, irrespective of their guilt or innocence.

The authors use of such language in the piece identifies him as no better than the tinhats who blindly cry foul without taking time to examine the facts. He's a looney, just from the other side.

Also, his analysis is hardly insightful - several of his points are either direct quotes or paraphrases of the prosecution case unsealed during the week. We still need a legal opinion on this.

What do you think is the error in his legal opinion regarding the likelihood that these disclosures about the agents would grant a retrial? As I said, I believe that view to be correct.