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Author Topic: [ANN] HaoBTC, mining dividend paid out hourly  (Read 56831 times)
GregH37
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June 16, 2016, 02:57:59 AM
 #581

This looks like really nice and trusted company many proofs of mining I will test there wallet.



Thanks

Well, Cloudmining sites are the big scams ever. but after reading all positive reviews I am also thinking to invest something there. It may be a stupid decision because lots of cloudming turn to scam after running and paying lots of years and people was trusting on them so much and then they run away..
I don't know what is the plan of HaoBtc but lets see.
Eric Mu (OP)
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June 16, 2016, 05:06:10 AM
 #582

Eric, I have noticed that HaoBtc website has quietly removed some lines under Transparency on its home page. The website used to display how many bitcoins stored in the cold storage and accumulated dividends. Any reason why they are gone (I am just curious)?

That's mainly the CEO's decision after an article popped up on a Chinese BTC forum claiming that HaoBTC will not be able to stay profitable after the halving. The piece was partly based on numbers we publicised and partly, false assumptions - for example, the electricity prices, the prices we pay for the hash equipments, etc. We also stopped publicising our cold wallet address after a Chinese exchange lost a sizeable amount of bitcoin fund recently.

Personally I am ambivalent towards this move. There is the idealistic part of me thinking that we should embrace criticisms, even unfair ones because over time, truth will prevail. But we are a business, and business interest is highest priority. If the numbers we publicise just breed slander, then we get to question the wisdom of the practice.
mandica
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June 16, 2016, 12:33:16 PM
 #583

I hope the bitcoin price rises slowly and the mining difficulty does not rise too fast so that many mining companies will be in profit.
biggbox
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June 16, 2016, 02:25:26 PM
 #584

The Chinese have propped up the price beyond 700..... Good job there. Smiley

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zalucia
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June 16, 2016, 03:57:30 PM
 #585

The Chinese have propped up the price beyond 700..... Good job there. Smiley

The latest rise beyond $700 started outside China. So there is good demand for bitcoin in the west as well.

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June 17, 2016, 04:32:56 AM
 #586

I think it came up too much and too fast. Starts resembling that pumping induced balloon we ve had couple years back. Still, it will bring lots of new people into crypto, that s for sure.

For security, your account has been locked. Email acctcomp15@theymos.e4ward.com
sbtctalk
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June 17, 2016, 06:08:25 AM
 #587

The Chinese have propped up the price beyond 700..... Good job there. Smiley

The latest rise beyond $700 started outside China. So there is good demand for bitcoin in the west as well.
I think it came up too much and too fast. Starts resembling that pumping induced balloon we ve had couple years back. Still, it will bring lots of new people into crypto, that s for sure.

The guy who sold the pizzas for btc will be laughing all the way, if he still has his private keys.

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mandica
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June 17, 2016, 07:38:58 AM
 #588

The Chinese have propped up the price beyond 700..... Good job there. Smiley

The latest rise beyond $700 started outside China. So there is good demand for bitcoin in the west as well.
I think it came up too much and too fast. Starts resembling that pumping induced balloon we ve had couple years back. Still, it will bring lots of new people into crypto, that s for sure.

The guy who sold the pizzas for btc will be laughing all the way, if he still has his private keys.

I doubt that. Is there an address about that transaction. I would like to see the money flow after that transaction.
sbtctalk
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June 17, 2016, 08:17:48 AM
 #589

I woner if key CCP leaders in China or their relatives or their proxies are involved in Bitcoins.

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WrongDude
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June 17, 2016, 09:05:29 AM
 #590

I'm really sorry Eric but please tell the one who is responsible for the web to fix the network since it's accessible but really sluggish/slow especially for international users (outside of China).
It took me lots of tries just for opening the main page.
I tried checking your website using some website uptime checker and the response time are fluctuative between 200-4000ms.
lorylore
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June 17, 2016, 12:11:03 PM
 #591

I am just recently aware of this service. I am pretty amazed on how well haobtc is putting in the effort to show that they are not a scam company. This definitely will attract potential customers like me. About a year ago, the fixed deposit is about 10btc. However, due to the recent rise in price for btc, do you consider to lesser the amount? I am speaking from a position that i am unable to afford 10 btc but i am interested to take up the fixed deposit. If it is 5btc today, it would be comparable to the price of 10 btc a year ago. This is my 2 cent of suggestion cause i am really sincerely interested in taking up the fixed deposit.
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June 17, 2016, 12:11:58 PM
 #592

I'm really sorry Eric but please tell the one who is responsible for the web to fix the network since it's accessible but really sluggish/slow especially for international users (outside of China).
It took me lots of tries just for opening the main page.
I tried checking your website using some website uptime checker and the response time are fluctuative between 200-4000ms.
I am in US and it has always been very responsive for me.  Are you sure it isn't your own connection?

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June 17, 2016, 01:33:04 PM
 #593

I am in US and it has always been very responsive for me.  Are you sure it isn't your own connection?

I'm moving between Australia and Indonesia at the moment, and have tried open the web page using both my smartphone in Australia and laptop in both places with no satisfying result.
I could somehow open the main page on firefox after waiting for about 5-10 minutes, but it's not convenient enough
(The status bar on the browser said something along the line 'connecting to' some baidu page, probably their CDN or something then it stucks there for a long time).
Not even clearing my browsing cache/cookies helps.
biggbox
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June 17, 2016, 02:03:41 PM
 #594

The Chinese have propped up the price beyond 700..... Good job there. Smiley

The latest rise beyond $700 started outside China. So there is good demand for bitcoin in the west as well.
I think it came up too much and too fast. Starts resembling that pumping induced balloon we ve had couple years back. Still, it will bring lots of new people into crypto, that s for sure.

The guy who sold the pizzas for btc will be laughing all the way, if he still has his private keys.

I doubt that. Is there an address about that transaction. I would like to see the money flow after that transaction.

Here u go! Thank the community! Smiley


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crazyivan
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June 19, 2016, 09:14:27 AM
 #595

How does this invest option exactly works? Up to 15% per year seems big time high. Is this something like Pacmic from Hashnest?

For security, your account has been locked. Email acctcomp15@theymos.e4ward.com
Eric Mu (OP)
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June 19, 2016, 12:46:00 PM
 #596

I am in US and it has always been very responsive for me.  Are you sure it isn't your own connection?

I'm moving between Australia and Indonesia at the moment, and have tried open the web page using both my smartphone in Australia and laptop in both places with no satisfying result.
I could somehow open the main page on firefox after waiting for about 5-10 minutes, but it's not convenient enough
(The status bar on the browser said something along the line 'connecting to' some baidu page, probably their CDN or something then it stucks there for a long time).
Not even clearing my browsing cache/cookies helps.

Thanks for your feedback - I will forward it to our tech colleagues. Could you please also PM your email address so I can keep you updated if there is any progress?
Eric Mu (OP)
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June 19, 2016, 12:47:19 PM
 #597

I am just recently aware of this service. I am pretty amazed on how well haobtc is putting in the effort to show that they are not a scam company. This definitely will attract potential customers like me. About a year ago, the fixed deposit is about 10btc. However, due to the recent rise in price for btc, do you consider to lesser the amount? I am speaking from a position that i am unable to afford 10 btc but i am interested to take up the fixed deposit. If it is 5btc today, it would be comparable to the price of 10 btc a year ago. This is my 2 cent of suggestion cause i am really sincerely interested in taking up the fixed deposit.

Hey, I am not sure we can change anything at this stage, but would be happy to forward your feedback to our colleagues.
Eric Mu (OP)
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June 20, 2016, 03:57:57 AM
Last edit: June 20, 2016, 05:43:28 AM by eric@haobtc
 #598

Ever since I started posting on this forum, I’ve frequently seen people, often in a careless manner and rather irresponsibly, claiming that HaoBTC is a Ponzi and will implode in no time.
Originally my thinking is that with time, such sentiment would subside and fizzle away. And in this community, especially in the cloud mining industry, a bit skepticism could be a healthy thing.
But a recent incident led me to think differently.
It started with a blog post in which the author included a Youtube video showing HaoBTC’s Kangding mine. The video was filmed by me and was uploaded to Youtube also by me, but I never contacted the author of the blog post, and was unaware of the post until much later.
Then the post was submitted to Reddit’s /btc sub by someone whom I don’t know either.
The article is general and uncontroversial, using only info public available - the highlight is the video I filmed. What causes the tempest in the teacup is a comment claiming that the mine in the video is not owned by HaoBTC, but someone else.
My first response was one of shock - Who would do that? Seems to me that whoever did it, he or she must hate us, an enemy of sort. However, with all my might, I couldn’t think of one person in the world that should have a good reason to hate us.
Since HaoBTC started to take deposits in November, 2014 - we have paid our users over 2300 BTC in dividends - As of today, that is worth 1.7 million USD. What is more, by paying an interest, our service have been encouraging people to hold. With per Bitcoin price grew four fold in value since we launched the service, every users who chose to trust us is, to various extent, get richer.
What made me angrier this time is that not only this person was accusing us falsely, he did it with invented details. His accusation thus is not general insinuations like most others, but elaborated fabrication. The harm of the later, needless to say, is much graver.
One such detail is a claim that the mine’s owner is man named Li Mu.
Since May 2015, I have spent over 100 days in this place. During the 100 days, I had taken thousands of photos, many hours of video, and overheard numerous phone calls and private conversations - if this mine is not owned by HaoBTC but someone named Li Mu, I would have known a long time ago. Then someone, ignoring all the overwhelming evidence easily accessible online, told the world that HaoBTC and me as a representative, had been lying to the public.
Despite my anger, I calmly considered alternatives to counter this assault.
I offered the person, under the alias 3xploit, a bet of 100BTC.
What I was thinking is that if someone can prove that I was dishonest, then I should never ever seek employment in this space as losing one’s reputation, IMO, equals a social suicide because nobody would ever trust this person and what comes from his mouth.
I thought such a gesture would be enough to bring the slanderer back to his senses - but I was wrong.
He matched my bet.
While I was waiting, I asked a few friends if they know the real ID of 3xploit. A few confirmed that the alias blonged to a man named Marshall Long, CEO of a US-based cloud mining service called Final Hash (I was heretheto unaware of nether ML or Final Hash).
That makes sense.
So he is a competitor, which can be a motivation. What’s more, he appears to be a supporter of Classic, and HaoBTC has chosen to stick with Core.
I then obtained ML's WeChat account where we had a debate that lasted from late night to the next morning.
ML showed me some of his proof - apparently footage filmed of other data centers, possibly in China.
I showed him mine.
The images, videos and posts.
He then told me that he confused the HaoBTC mine with another mine, one not owned by HaoBTC. It was a mistake and we are both right.
I disagree. It is simple logic and only one of us can be right.
I think I am right and he is wrong.
At one point, he reminded me that he was a moderator of the subreddit and have the power to ban me.
Such a childish response comes from the CEO of a top US cloudmining service is beyond belief and begs the question: No wonder cloud-mining has such a bad reputation abroad; unprofessional people like ML may contributed to it.
After reminding him several times I decided that he has no intension to keep his word and pay me 100BTC - an amount that he said is "small".
I badly need some sleep, so I discontinued the exchange.
I subsequently posted all the screenshots of the conversation, including ML's barely-veiled threat, to this forum.
The response is one-sided support for me and condemnation on him.
He lost his moderator the very next day.
Although I never received 100BTC, I feel triumphant.

This is just an anecdote I uses to introduce what I am going to do next, which is why HaoBTC is and can't be a Ponzi:

First let's look at the definition of Ponzi.
According to Wikipedia:
Quote
A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.

So it is crystal clear that if you want to qualify as a ponzi, you by deninition can’t have a source of revenue enough to pay the investors’ returns.
HaoBTC disqualifies itself by this count alone. I have shown beyond reasonable doubt that the company has a reliable source of revenue - its professionally managed mining operations distributed across the country are making more than needed to meet the obligations to its users.
Currently HaoBTC has borrowed about 30,000 BTC of user funds. Aside from a percentage kept to meet daily withdrawal needs, the rest has been invested in mining facilities, which at the time of writing, generates about 72PH (fluctuate due to a variety of reasons that I would not go into). This amount roughly accounts for 5% of the entire hashrate and entitles us to about 5% of the daily reward of a total of 36,00 BTC, which is about 180BTC (also fluctuates slightly from day to day).

Remember what Charles Dickens, through his fictional character, once said:
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

So we have an income 180BTC, even with all the cost deducted - electricity, labour, development cost and tax, the net profit is well beyond 100BTC (a very conservative estimate).
In comparison, we pay between 4 to 6 BTC daily as dividends.
So there is no way that we can’t afford the amount of dividends at present.

I know I know that mining 180BTC per day today is no guarantee that you will, especially after the halving, mine the same amount. There may be a point that you can't pay the interest.

From a user’s perspective, all you need to care about is two numbers - how much coins we mine everyday - a number we publicise on the front page (A) and how much we pay our investors (B)- something that you can get by doing a simple calculation by noting down total dividend paid in same hour of two consecutive days and subtract the two to get the difference.

The day you begin to see that the number A is smaller than number B, I suggest you withdraw your coins from this service immidiately and send them to your Trezor. But in all likelihood, this will not happen in at least a few years to come.

That is not to say that there are not risks - Bitcoin mining is highly competitive and the situation can change every day.
But there are some facts behind our opportunism:
1.   We have already found the cheapest power available worldwide and the most efficient business model that enable us to mine profitably on a large scale. Bitcoin mining is no longer a secret shared by a few. Many corners have been turned to reduce the cost. If there were cheaper ways to do it in a scalable manner, people would have known it. I know some people get free power, but they do it illegally and such practice often involve hidden cost, such as bribery, thus can’t be entirely free. While some may be able to do it small, having a DC level operation would be impossible to hide from public eyes.  
2.   The new 14 or 16 nm ASIC chips are not so easy to manufacture and mass production and supply will not happen very soon. We learned this by having our own orders from BitFury delayed. Some Chinese manufacturers also encountered production problems leading to low yield rate. So the risk that sudden emergence of new chips rendering ones that we currently deploy useless overnight is unlikely.
3.   Even if that happens - unlikely but for the sake of argument, we can easily pivot from a mining company to a hosting company. We have already built multiple DC and have a dedicated team. In the past, we have rejected many business proposals from other miners, including prominent companies such as BTCC and Huobi. If one day we can’t mine profitably, our 25MW data centers will continue to be used for other people who can.
4.   Even if such a pivot will not work, then we still have two sources of revenue - our mining pool and exchange. The later has already showed volume steadily growing and we are making a few bitcoins - double digit in the recent rally, in trading commission and withdrawal fee per day.

I hope the above can lead you towards the decision that I believe is the correct one.
biggbox
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June 20, 2016, 05:47:46 AM
 #599

Ever since I started posting on this forum, I’ve frequently seen people, often in a careless manner and rather irresponsibly, claiming that HaoBTC is a Ponzi and will implode in no time.
Originally my thinking is that with time, such sentiment would subside and fizzle away. And in this community, especially in the cloud mining industry, a bit skepticism could be a healthy thing.
But a recent incident led me to think differently.
It started with a blog post in which the author included a Youtube video showing HaoBTC’s Kangding mine. The video was filmed by me and was uploaded to Youtube also by me, but I never contacted the author of the blog post, and was unaware of the post until much later.
Then the post was submitted to Reddit’s /btc sub by someone whom I don’t know either.
The article is general and uncontroversial, using only info public available - the highlight is the video I filmed. What causes the tempest in the teacup is a comment claiming that the mine in the video is not owned by HaoBTC, but someone else.
My first response was one of shock - Who would do that? Seems to me that whoever did it, he or she must hate us, an enemy of sort. However, with all my might, I couldn’t think of one person in the world that should have a good reason to hate us.
Since HaoBTC started to take deposits in November, 2014 - we have paid our users over 2300 BTC in dividends - As of today, that is worth 1.7 million USD. What is more, by paying an interest, our service have been encouraging people to hold. With per Bitcoin price grew four fold in value since we launched the service, every users who chose to trust us is, to various extent, get richer.
What made me angrier this time is that not only this person was accusing us falsely, he did it with invented details. His accusation thus is not general insinuations like most others, but elaborated fabrication. The harm of the later, needless to say, is much graver.
One such detail is a claim that the mine’s owner is man named Li Mu.
Since May 2015, I have spent over 100 days in this place. During the 100 days, I had taken thousands of photos, many hours of video, and overheard numerous phone calls and private conversations - if this mine is not owned by HaoBTC but someone named Li Mu, I would have known a long time ago. Then someone, ignoring all the obvious evidence available online, told the world that HaoBTC and me as a representative, had been lying to the public.
Despite my anger, I calmly considered alternatives to counter this assault.
I offered the person, under the alias 3xploit, a bet of 100BTC.
What I was thinking is that if someone can prove that I was dishonest, then I should never ever seek employment in this space as losing one’s reputation, IMO, equals a social suicide because nobody would ever trust this person and what comes from his mouth.
I thought such a gesture would be enough to bring the slanderer back to his senses - but I was wrong.
He matched my bet.
While I was waiting, I asked a few friends if they know the real ID of 3xploit. A few confirmed that the alias blonged to a man named Marshall Long, CEO of a US-based cloud mining service called Final Hash (I was heretheto unaware of nether ML or Final Hash).
That makes sense.
So he is a competitor, which can be a motivation. What’s more, he appears to be a supporter of Classic, and HaoBTC has chosen to stick with Core.
I then obtained ML's WeChat account where we had a debate that lasted from late night to the next morning.
ML showed me some of his proof - apparently footage filmed of other data centers, possibly in China.
I showed him mine.
The images, videos and posts.
He then told me that he confused the HaoBTC mine with another mine, one not owned by HaoBTC. It was a mistake and we are both right.
I disagree. It is simple logic and only one of us can be right.
I think I am right and he is wrong.
At one point, he reminded me that he was a moderator of the subreddit and have the power to ban me.
Such a childish response comes from the CEO of a top US cloudmining service is beyond belief and begs the question: No wonder cloud-mining has such a bad reputation abroad; unprofessional people like ML may contributed to it.
After reminding him several times I decided that he has no intension to keep his word and pay me 100BTC - an amount that he said is "small".
I badly need some sleep, so I discontinued the exchange.
I subsequently posted all the screenshots of the conversation, including ML's barely-veiled threat, to this forum.
The response is one-sided support for me and condemnation on him.
He lost his moderator the very next day.
Although I never received 100BTC, I feel triumphant.

This is just an anecdote I uses to introduce what I am going to do next, which is why HaoBTC is and can't be a Ponzi:

First let's look at the definition of Ponzi.
According to Wikipedia:
Quote
A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.

So it is crystal clear that if you want to qualify as a ponzi, you by deninition can’t have a source of revenue enough to pay the investors’ returns.
HaoBTC disqualifies itself by this count alone. I have shown beyond reasonable doubt that the company has a reliable source of revenue - its professionally managed mining operations distributed across the country are making more than needed to meet the obligations to its users.
Currently HaoBTC has borrowed about 30,000 BTC of user funds. Aside from a percentage kept to meet daily withdrawal needs, the rest has been invested in mining facilities, which at the time of writing, generates about 72PH (fluctuate due to a variety of reasons that I would not go into). This amount roughly accounts for 5% of the entire hashrate and entitles us to about 5% of the daily reward of a total of 36,00 BTC, which is about 180BTC (also fluctuates slightly from day to day).

Remember what Charles Dickens, through his fictional character, once said:
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

So we have an income 180BTC, even with all the cost deducted - electricity, labour, development cost and tax, the net profit is well beyond 100BTC (a very conservative estimate).
In comparison, we pay between 4 to 6 BTC daily as dividends.
So there is no way that we can’t afford the amount of dividends at present.

I know I know that mining 180BTC per day today is no guarantee that you will, especially after the halving, mine the same amount. There may be a point that you can't pay the interest.

From a user’s perspective, all you need to care about is two numbers - how much coins we mine everyday - a number we publicise on the front page (A) and how much we pay our investors (B)- something that you can get by doing a simple calculation by noting down total dividend paid in same hour of two consecutive days and subtract the two to get the difference.

The day you begin to see that the number A is smaller than number B, I suggest you withdraw your coins from this service immidiately and send them to your Trezor. But in all likelihood, this will not happen in at least a few years to come.

That is not to say that there are not risks - Bitcoin mining is highly competitive and the situation can change every day.
But there are some facts behind our opportunism:
1.   We have already found the cheapest power available worldwide and the most efficient business model that enable us to mine profitably on a large scale. Bitcoin mining is no longer a secret shared by a few. Many corners have been turned to reduce the cost. If there were cheaper ways to do it in a scalable manner, people would have known it. I know some people get free power, but they do it illegally and such practice often involve hidden cost, such as bribery, thus can’t be entirely free. While some may be able to do it small, having a DC level operation would be impossible to hide from public eyes. 
2.   The new 14 or 16 nm ASIC chips are not so easy to manufacture and mass production and supply will not happen very soon. We learned this by having our own orders from BitFury delayed. Some Chinese manufacturers also encountered production problems leading to low yield rate. So the risk that sudden emergence of new chips rendering ones that we currently deploy useless overnight is unlikely.
3.   Even if that happens - unlikely but for the sake of argument, we can easily pivot from a mining company to a hosting company. We have already built multiple DC and have a dedicated team. In the past, we have rejected many business proposals from other miners, including prominent companies such as BTCC and Huobi. If one day we can’t mine profitably, our 25MW data centers will continue to be used for other people who can.
4.   Even if such a pivot will not work, then we still have two sources of revenue - our mining pool and exchange. The later has already showed volume steadily growing and we are making a few bitcoins - double digit in the recent rally, in trading commission and withdrawal fee per day.

I hope the above can lead you towards the decision that I believe is the correct one.



I am very certain that members in this forum appreciate your frankness and prompt responses and support you have rendered here.

Do not be discouraged. I have seen many from the western world who are oblivious or disregard to tends or events from the eastern world.

At the end of the day, as long as you run an honest profitable business and not short change your customers, the business will thrive.

The Chinese are known to be shrewd business men but there are those who value integrity, honesty and aware these are traits that are valued in business dealings.


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June 20, 2016, 06:01:12 AM
 #600

Talk is cheap, you've gone above and beyond to show the ins and outs of HaoBTC so don't sweat what others say to bring you down.  I know my coin is in a good spot.
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