Kraken Accepting MtGox Bankruptcy Claims

[coinpr0n]

A big Kraken fan and user for quite some time. They are seizing the opportunity and again demonstrating how involved and serious they are as an exchange. After the Goxing they were the first to prove reserve of user funds (maybe second, after btcchina?) ... I hope this process goes as smoothly as possible for everyone involved. That could be a really good thing for Bitcoin.

[UsernameBitcoin]

That can't be true for the obvious reason, that they just don't have the money to pay out in USD(I think, they pay in Yen anyways). They have 200k Bitcoin. So, if they want to pay in USD, they have to convert the BTC to USD, which will most likely be less than the price at the time of the bankruptcy filling.

I think right now no one knows for sure how much and which currency there exactly is. I'm sure Mtgox also had at least some fiat in their bank accounts. Maybe they also pay some in fiat, and some in Bitcoin. We will see.

you know what this mean right? that i can purchase bitcoin with that amount, and having more then what i would have if i'd cashed out in bitcoin from kraken
because 80 usd are more than 0.2(around 0.35)

It's a bet. You decide now what you prefer, but you don't know the actual course when the payout is. If you choose fiat, and Bitcoin goes back to $1000 in the next months, it's a bad decision. If the course stays the same as today, it's of course better to choose fiat.

[Amph]

It's a bet. You decide now what you prefer, but you don't know the actual course when the payout is. If you choose fiat, and Bitcoin goes back to $1000 in the next months, it's a bad decision. If the course stays the same as today, it's of course better to choose fiat.

it would be a bad decision, only if they pay you really slow, so slow that the price of btc skyrocket, and you don't have time to buy it now that is cheap enough, to be honest it seems very unlikely to happen

btw your payment should be instant, i don't remember that you need to wait much time for retrieve your money, in the e-mail that they sent to me

[WhatTheGox]

That can't be true for the obvious reason, that they just don't have the money to pay out in USD(I think, they pay in Yen anyways). They have 200k Bitcoin. So, if they want to pay in USD, they have to convert the BTC to USD, which will most likely be less than the price at the time of the bankruptcy filling.

I think right now no one knows for sure how much and which currency there exactly is. I'm sure Mtgox also had at least some fiat in their bank accounts. Maybe they also pay some in fiat, and some in Bitcoin. We will see.

you know what this mean right? that i can purchase bitcoin with that amount, and having more then what i would have if i'd cashed out in bitcoin from kraken
because 80 usd are more than 0.2(around 0.35)

It's a bet. You decide now what you prefer, but you don't know the actual course when the payout is. If you choose fiat, and Bitcoin goes back to $1000 in the next months, it's a bad decision. If the course stays the same as today, it's of course better to choose fiat.

I doubt gox holders are that concerned about rushing to cash in their 20% of bitcoin are they? they've already been holding down from like $800- $900 appart from those who were trading in and out of that madness when the exchange shut withdraws.  Im guessing like 10-15% are cashing in for good now.

[Dargo]

Hi All,

I work for Kraken (one thing I do is manage our thread here on bitcointalk - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=290799.0). I want to address a few questions that have come up in this thread. If I don't cover a question you have, please feel free to ask me. Disclaimer: Kraken is only assisting the MtGox trustee and doesn't speak for the trustee, so nothing said here can be understood as a promise or guarantee about how the claims process will actually work.

How much of my money can I expect to get back?
This is simply an unknown at this point. According to an analysis done by WizSec (here: http://blog.wizsec.jp/2015/04/the-missing-mtgox-bitcoins.html), there may be a little over 20% of the expected BTC balance left (about 200,000 out of 950,000 expected BTC). Even if this analysis is fairly accurate (and it may not be), other unknown factors will impact what you get back, including what % of fiat balances remain and what % of remaining assets go unclaimed.

What about the 483 USD exchange rate?
This exchange rate does NOT mean that you will get 483 USD for your remaining bitcoins if you request payout in fiat. The amounts you enter for various currencies in the claim form are being converted into Japanese yen on the form. The exchange rate in the case of BTC is 50,058.12 yen. The exchange rates being used for all currencies are the rates on the day before the start of bankruptcy proceedings (April 23, 2014 Japan time) and at that time 50,058.12 yen was equivalent to 483 USD. For details, see "FAQs Regarding Filing, Etc. Bankruptcy Claims by MTGOX Bitcoin Exchange Users" (pp. 10-11) at https://www.mtgox.com/.

So, if you claim 1 BTC this will be converted to JPY 50,058.12 on the form. These are just conversion rates for the form and don't imply that any currencies will actually be converted at the given rates or that you will somehow get a distribution in JPY using those rates. It's natural to think that the rates will also serve to help determine your pro rata share of the remaining assets, but this isn't certain either.

Advantages to filing through Kraken?
In many ways using Kraken is the same process. You fill out the same form and your share of the remaining funds will be determined in the same way. However, here are some of the advantages to filing with Kraken:

• We're offering 1,000 USD worth of free trade fee credits as an incentive for those interested in trading with us. You get the credits after you complete the form and they are good until one month after distributions start to be paid out. See here for details: https://support.kraken.com/hc/en-us/articles/204802628
• Access to our great support. Providing world class service and support to our clients is a foundation of our business, so we take it very seriously.
• If you want to get your payout in the form of bitcoin, it will be easier to file the claim with Kraken because if any bitcoin are distributed, the distribution will be done through Kraken (but it still hasn't been determined if any bitcoin will be distributed).

If that doesn't clarify the difference in using Kraken, let me know and I'll say more.

[UsernameBitcoin]

Thanks for clarification and helping to take care of this mess.

[bahamapascal]

Hi, is any one having problems with the log in system at MtGox?

Here is what happened to me. I started the claiming process, went through the enter password and changing the password and got to the fill out form. Unfortunately I wasn't sure what amount I had to put in the claim, so I got this information a couple hours later when I got back home.

Unfortunately I was logged out automatically (due to being in active for longer period of time) and can now no longer log in, neither with my old password, nor with the new one.

Am I the only one? Any suggestions here what I could do about it?

[WhatTheGox]

What about the 483 USD exchange rate?
This exchange rate does NOT mean that you will get 483 USD for your remaining bitcoins if you request payout in fiat. The amounts you enter for various currencies in the claim form are being converted into Japanese yen on the form. The exchange rate in the case of BTC is 50,058.12 yen. The exchange rates being used for all currencies are the rates on the day before the start of bankruptcy proceedings (April 23, 2014 Japan time) and at that time 50,058.12 yen was equivalent to 483 USD. For details, see "FAQs Regarding Filing, Etc. Bankruptcy Claims by MTGOX Bitcoin Exchange Users" (pp. 10-11) at https://www.mtgox.com/.

So, if you claim 1 BTC this will be converted to JPY 50,058.12 on the form. These are just conversion rates for the form and don't imply that any currencies will actually be converted at the given rates or that you will somehow get a distribution in JPY using those rates. It's natural to think that the rates will also serve to help determine your pro rata share of the remaining assets, but this isn't certain either.

Thanks for taking time to address these questions.  So to clarifiy there is no "better" strategy for people when making a claim whether that be fiat or BTC? or is that uncertain? because if you held BTC in gox when it went down and you pick to get paid in fiat there is a small chance your BTC share couldbe treated as a higher $ value vs current market value and you can gain an advantage vs other claims on the total assets?

[Dargo]

Hi, is any one having problems with the log in system at MtGox?

Here is what happened to me. I started the claiming process, went through the enter password and changing the password and got to the fill out form. Unfortunately I wasn't sure what amount I had to put in the claim, so I got this information a couple hours later when I got back home.

Unfortunately I was logged out automatically (due to being in active for longer period of time) and can now no longer log in, neither with my old password, nor with the new one.

Am I the only one? Any suggestions here what I could do about it?

I'm checking to see if we can offer any suggestions. If you are a Kraken client I also recommend creating a support ticket to connect with our support team directly for the fastest service. You of course always have the option to go with the offline paper filing if the online system doesn't work, but hopefully you can find a solution and avoid that.

[Dargo]

What about the 483 USD exchange rate?
This exchange rate does NOT mean that you will get 483 USD for your remaining bitcoins if you request payout in fiat. The amounts you enter for various currencies in the claim form are being converted into Japanese yen on the form. The exchange rate in the case of BTC is 50,058.12 yen. The exchange rates being used for all currencies are the rates on the day before the start of bankruptcy proceedings (April 23, 2014 Japan time) and at that time 50,058.12 yen was equivalent to 483 USD. For details, see "FAQs Regarding Filing, Etc. Bankruptcy Claims by MTGOX Bitcoin Exchange Users" (pp. 10-11) at https://www.mtgox.com/.

So, if you claim 1 BTC this will be converted to JPY 50,058.12 on the form. These are just conversion rates for the form and don't imply that any currencies will actually be converted at the given rates or that you will somehow get a distribution in JPY using those rates. It's natural to think that the rates will also serve to help determine your pro rata share of the remaining assets, but this isn't certain either.

Thanks for taking time to address these questions.  So to clarifiy there is no "better" strategy for people when making a claim whether that be fiat or BTC? or is that uncertain? because if you held BTC in gox when it went down and you pick to get paid in fiat there is a small chance your BTC share couldbe treated as a higher $ value vs current market value and you can gain an advantage vs other claims on the total assets?

We don't know for certain (again with the disclaimer  ), but it appears that the remaining assets (and each creditor's share of that) are being determined in JPY. In the end your share of the remaining assets will be x amount of JPY and payouts in currency other than JPY will just be determined at the current exchange rates (NOT the rates given on the claim form). So the choice between getting your payout in fiat or BTC is probably just going to be the choice between getting paid in fiat or the equivalent amount of BTC.

However, it's a bit more complicated than that: According to information provided by the trustee in "Documents distributed at the third creditors’ meeting" (on https://www.mtgox.com), it looks like the majority of remaining assets are currently in the form of bitcoin (approximately 80% at current BTC price). This means that if you have a BTC balance and you request payout in fiat, you are essentially asking the trustee to liquidate your bitcoins for you. Do you really want to have a bureaucratic entity decide how and when to liquidate your remaining bitcoins? Are you confident that you will get a good price that way? No offense to the trustee, but personally I'd rather make my own choice about when to liquidate my remaining BTC and at what price. Also, if you are a bitcoin advocate, you might think that the last thing bitcoin needs right now is another huge block of coins up for sale at auction or on the open market, especially if you have doubts about how well that sale might be handled.

I think the best outcome of this situation will be if the remaining bitcoin can be distributed in kind to creditors, but in order for that to happen, we need a lot of creditors to request payout in bitcoin. Is there a personal financial incentive to taking your payout in bitcoin or fiat though? This isn't clear, but if you are not confident in having the trustee liquidate your bitcoins for you, then this is another reason to choose a BTC payout.

 



 

[WhatTheGox]

What about the 483 USD exchange rate?
This exchange rate does NOT mean that you will get 483 USD for your remaining bitcoins if you request payout in fiat. The amounts you enter for various currencies in the claim form are being converted into Japanese yen on the form. The exchange rate in the case of BTC is 50,058.12 yen. The exchange rates being used for all currencies are the rates on the day before the start of bankruptcy proceedings (April 23, 2014 Japan time) and at that time 50,058.12 yen was equivalent to 483 USD. For details, see "FAQs Regarding Filing, Etc. Bankruptcy Claims by MTGOX Bitcoin Exchange Users" (pp. 10-11) at https://www.mtgox.com/.

So, if you claim 1 BTC this will be converted to JPY 50,058.12 on the form. These are just conversion rates for the form and don't imply that any currencies will actually be converted at the given rates or that you will somehow get a distribution in JPY using those rates. It's natural to think that the rates will also serve to help determine your pro rata share of the remaining assets, but this isn't certain either.

Thanks for taking time to address these questions.  So to clarifiy there is no "better" strategy for people when making a claim whether that be fiat or BTC? or is that uncertain? because if you held BTC in gox when it went down and you pick to get paid in fiat there is a small chance your BTC share couldbe treated as a higher $ value vs current market value and you can gain an advantage vs other claims on the total assets?

We don't know for certain (again with the disclaimer  ), but it appears that the remaining assets (and each creditor's share of that) are being determined in JPY. In the end your share of the remaining assets will be x amount of JPY and payouts in currency other than JPY will just be determined at the current exchange rates (NOT the rates given on the claim form). So the choice between getting your payout in fiat or BTC is probably just going to be the choice between getting paid in fiat or the equivalent amount of BTC.

However, it's a bit more complicated than that: According to information provided by the trustee in "Documents distributed at the third creditors’ meeting" (on https://www.mtgox.com), it looks like the majority of remaining assets are currently in the form of bitcoin (approximately 80% at current BTC price). This means that if you have a BTC balance and you request payout in fiat, you are essentially asking the trustee to liquidate your bitcoins for you. Do you really want to have a bureaucratic entity decide how and when to liquidate your remaining bitcoins? Are you confident that you will get a good price that way? No offense to the trustee, but personally I'd rather make my own choice about when to liquidate my remaining BTC and at what price. Also, if you are a bitcoin advocate, you might think that the last thing bitcoin needs right now is another huge block of coins up for sale at auction or on the open market, especially if you have doubts about how well that sale might be handled.

I think the best outcome of this situation will be if the remaining bitcoin can be distributed in kind to creditors, but in order for that to happen, we need a lot of creditors to request payout in bitcoin. Is there a personal financial incentive to taking your payout in bitcoin or fiat though? This isn't clear, but if you are not confident in having the trustee liquidate your bitcoins for you, then this is another reason to choose a BTC payout.

 



 

ok thanks Dargo, ive made my mind up and it will be a claim via kraken in BTC because no i dont want to hand control to someone else to dump at a time i cannot choose + i'd only be rebuying anyway.

[bahamapascal]

Hi, is any one having problems with the log in system at MtGox?

Here is what happened to me. I started the claiming process, went through the enter password and changing the password and got to the fill out form. Unfortunately I wasn't sure what amount I had to put in the claim, so I got this information a couple hours later when I got back home.

Unfortunately I was logged out automatically (due to being in active for longer period of time) and can now no longer log in, neither with my old password, nor with the new one.

Am I the only one? Any suggestions here what I could do about it?

I'm checking to see if we can offer any suggestions. If you are a Kraken client I also recommend creating a support ticket to connect with our support team directly for the fastest service. You of course always have the option to go with the offline paper filing if the online system doesn't work, but hopefully you can find a solution and avoid that.

Yes, I am a long time client of Kraken. I had already contacted support, though there suggestions didn't work. But I also havn't asked again, as they told me that they were overwelmed by the amount of support tickets they were getting due to the MtGox claims. So I thoght I would wait a bit and ask here if some one else had the same problems.
Well I hope I don't have to do it via the paper filling, I would love to get those free trading fees

[Vandroiy]

I'm having difficulties making sense of the final trading days and last balance; especially, I want to be sure that outstanding transactions at the time of Gox's default are included in my claim.

I'd like to see the reasoning behind the final balance shown, preferably an official transaction log for my account, so that I can verify it against my own data and older logs. What happened to any outstanding transfers? Were they merged back into the final balance? If so, when?

It's not reasonable to expect users to download their histories every day. Now, if there is anything unclear in the logs we've saved, we have nothing to compare to. The hide-and-seek on important details doesn't making me feel any better about this.

[Blazed]

Well I signed up @ Kraken to be goxxed once again. I really doubt we end up getting anything back though. I already kissed that 15BTC goodbye a year ago. Pretty smart move from Kraken though...basically get the entire Gox user base free.

[Dargo]

Hi, is any one having problems with the log in system at MtGox?

Here is what happened to me. I started the claiming process, went through the enter password and changing the password and got to the fill out form. Unfortunately I wasn't sure what amount I had to put in the claim, so I got this information a couple hours later when I got back home.

Unfortunately I was logged out automatically (due to being in active for longer period of time) and can now no longer log in, neither with my old password, nor with the new one.

Am I the only one? Any suggestions here what I could do about it?

I'm checking to see if we can offer any suggestions. If you are a Kraken client I also recommend creating a support ticket to connect with our support team directly for the fastest service. You of course always have the option to go with the offline paper filing if the online system doesn't work, but hopefully you can find a solution and avoid that.

Yes, I am a long time client of Kraken. I had already contacted support, though there suggestions didn't work. But I also havn't asked again, as they told me that they were overwelmed by the amount of support tickets they were getting due to the MtGox claims. So I thoght I would wait a bit and ask here if some one else had the same problems.
Well I hope I don't have to do it via the paper filling, I would love to get those free trading fees

Yes, our support was under very heavy load for the first few days after claims started. Have you tried again with the MtGox claim site after waiting 24 hours? Apparently the site will lock you out if it sees certain kind of "suspicious" login behavior and you may have triggered this security measure. If that's not it, let me know and we'll try something else.

[Dargo]

I'm having difficulties making sense of the final trading days and last balance; especially, I want to be sure that outstanding transactions at the time of Gox's default are included in my claim.

I'd like to see the reasoning behind the final balance shown, preferably an official transaction log for my account, so that I can verify it against my own data and older logs. What happened to any outstanding transfers? Were they merged back into the final balance? If so, when?

It's not reasonable to expect users to download their histories every day. Now, if there is anything unclear in the logs we've saved, we have nothing to compare to. The hide-and-seek on important details doesn't making me feel any better about this.

This is understandable but unfortunately we (Kraken) can't help you with this. You will need to contact the trustee directly. There is a phone number you can try (if you haven't already), which is in the FAQs document on https://www.mtgox.com:

Contact information for inquiries concerning the filing of Exchange-Related Bankruptcy Claims is as follows:

MTGOX Co., Ltd. Office of Bankruptcy Trustee

Telephone: +81-3-4588-3922 (10a.m. - 5p.m. weekdays) (Japan time)

Sorry we can't be more help on this one - hopefully you can make progress with the phone number.

[Dargo]

Well I signed up @ Kraken to be goxxed once again. I really doubt we end up getting anything back though. I already kissed that 15BTC goodbye a year ago. Pretty smart move from Kraken though...basically get the entire Gox user base free.

I understand your skepticism, but hopefully we can exceed your expectations! If you need any specific help with your claim form, please let me know or contact us through support.

[hutcho]

I could not do the online claim because the original email address I used with Gox is no longer active. I did make the change on my account for the new address, but apparently for online claiming they will send the authorization code only to the original address.
When asking if you want to accept your claim in BTC or fiat, the offline form states that the trustee is conducting a survey to determine the creditors' preference. Thus it's not yet sure if there will be a choice between fiat and bitcoin. If the claims are paid in bitcoin they are to be done only thru Kraken.
My question is ,being that I can't do the online claim thru Kraken, how is the offline claim done thru Kraken ?

[dserrano5]

I could not do the online claim because the original email address I used with Gox is no longer active. I did make the change on my account for the new address, but apparently for online claiming they will send the authorization code only to the original address.

This is such a downer, the original address I used isn't active either .

how is the offline claim done thru Kraken ?

AIUI there's no such thing. You can either a) offline, b) online gox or c) online kraken.

[kodeon.CEO]

Hi, is any one having problems with the log in system at MtGox?

Here is what happened to me. I started the claiming process, went through the enter password and changing the password and got to the fill out form. Unfortunately I wasn't sure what amount I had to put in the claim, so I got this information a couple hours later when I got back home.

Unfortunately I was logged out automatically (due to being in active for longer period of time) and can now no longer log in, neither with my old password, nor with the new one.

Am I the only one? Any suggestions here what I could do about it?

May I ask what browser you are using? I cannot seem to get past the changing password step, the button "Change Password" seems to have no functionality for me. I have tried chrome and internet explorer.