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Question: Gavin Bell (Andresen) is a USG muppet
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Eastfist
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May 04, 2015, 09:01:26 PM
 #61

Gavin does not care about Bitcoin. He's in it for the popularity and money. Trust me.
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May 04, 2015, 11:12:34 PM
 #62

Gavin does not care about Bitcoin. He's in it for the popularity and money. Trust me.

Great thing about bitcoin is you don't need to trust anyone. Look at the code yourself, and if you don't like it make your own changes to contribute or fork it.
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May 04, 2015, 11:23:43 PM
 #63



Take a look at this picture of Peter Todd, look at his T-Shirt and tell me he's being ironical. You don't wear a T-Shirt with NSA logo unless you idolize them or work for them.

I remember the first time I met Peter Todd, Jeff Garzik introduced him to me, he just seemed to pop out from nowhere. My encounter with him was brief. But I noticed he didn't swallow the bait even then. So I don't really know his real motive being in the Bitcoin game.
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May 04, 2015, 11:30:17 PM
 #64

Take a look at this picture of Peter Todd, look at his T-Shirt and tell me he's being ironical. You don't wear a T-Shirt with NSA logo unless you idolize them or work for them.

From what I understand he hangs out with and talks like an anarchist. That shirt reminds me how all the hippie and druggie teens growing up in certain places of the US I visited would wear "D.A.R.E" (Drug Abuse Resistance Education) shirts to mock the teachers , parents and authority figures. Probably what Peter is doing here.
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May 04, 2015, 11:31:10 PM
 #65

Take a look at this picture of Peter Todd, look at his T-Shirt and tell me he's being ironical. You don't wear a T-Shirt with NSA logo unless you idolize them or work for them.

From what I understand he hangs out with and talks like an anarchist. That shirt reminds me how all the hippie and druggie teens growing up in certain places of the US I visited would wear "D.A.R.E" shirts to mock the teachers , parents and authority figures. Probably what Peter is doing here.


Dude was a strange cat. But I only ever met him like 2 times.
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May 04, 2015, 11:31:57 PM
 #66


Take a look at this picture of Peter Todd, look at his T-Shirt and tell me he's being ironical. You don't wear a T-Shirt with NSA logo unless you idolize them or work for them.


What a black and white world you must inhabit.
Eastfist
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May 04, 2015, 11:33:09 PM
 #67


Take a look at this picture of Peter Todd, look at his T-Shirt and tell me he's being ironical. You don't wear a T-Shirt with NSA logo unless you idolize them or work for them.


What a black and white world you must inhabit.

Ask Peter Todd who I am.
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May 04, 2015, 11:35:12 PM
 #68

Dude was a strange cat. But I only ever met him like 2 times.

The older we get the more I realize we are all strange and have unusual proclivities. We all tend to mask it for ourselves and friends and family members but in reality we are all weird to an outsider.

Bitcoin being a unique project likely attracts many "interesting " people and that is one reason I love it.
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May 04, 2015, 11:52:05 PM
 #69

I can't really see what use GA would be to the USG as an agent.
First; you would think, if he was, he would have to act in a covert manner. Not publicly announcing that he is going into talk with the CIA.
Second; CIA is used for operations outside of U.S. territory
Next; what is the purpose he serves? He helps the btc ecology, is moving a competing monetary system forward the USG's goal? The common anti-gov bias re; Bitcoin is Bitcoin must fail! If GA is an agent, he's doing it wrong

As Bitcoin exists today it isn't a threat to anyone. If, in say 5 years, we see mass adoption, and something goes terribly wrong with the basic protocol... Well maybe... But somehow I think you're giving these govt spooks more credit than they deserve
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May 05, 2015, 01:53:41 AM
 #70

I miss the old days when everyone on this forum would lick Gavin's ass like it was a lollypop. What's wrong with you people? Show some respect for the messiah of Bitcoin coding. If he wants to fork Bitcoin till it bleeds we'll support him because - Gavin.

As for USG controlling Bitcoin. The lead dev is not the way to do it. They could have infiltrated TBF. Pumped enough money into the org to keep it alive and increased Gavin's salary every year by $20k. That's the way to control Bitcoin. Gavin as a CIA agent is laughable. USG caring enough to control Bitcoin is also laughable. The only action the government has taken against Bitcoin was to apply FIAT laws to Bitcoin > fiat transactions, bust drug dealers, and bust FIAT money laundering. None of those things have anything to do with Bitcoin. If you were buying drugs, engaged in child prostitution, or allowing minors to gamble with chocolate chip cookies then laundering your cookies for fiat the governments reaction would be the same. Bitcoin is not the issue.

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May 05, 2015, 07:20:14 AM
 #71

Of course he's not an agent. That's plain ridiculous. He's an asset.
Likely just like you, dear reader.
If you're an inhabitant of a Nato state and you swallow any of their bitcoin-must-scale propaganda, you are a CIA asset.

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May 05, 2015, 08:27:49 AM
Last edit: May 05, 2015, 08:39:46 AM by Peter Todd
 #72



Take a look at this picture of Peter Todd, look at his T-Shirt and tell me he's being ironical. You don't wear a T-Shirt with NSA logo unless you idolize them or work for them.

I remember the first time I met Peter Todd, Jeff Garzik introduced him to me, he just seemed to pop out from nowhere. My encounter with him was brief. But I noticed he didn't swallow the bait even then. So I don't really know his real motive being in the Bitcoin game.

lolololololol

I got that shirt from the Electronic Freedom Foundation's booth at 31c3: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/back-popular-demand-nsa-spying-t-shirts-members

Sadly the NSA isn't sufficiently self-aware to sell shirts saying "ALL YOUR DATA" with glowering, red-eyed eagle's... but they should be.

And for the record, I'm a Canadian - I work for CSIS, not the NSA.

slavo
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May 05, 2015, 08:42:51 AM
 #73



Take a look at this picture of Peter Todd, look at his T-Shirt and tell me he's being ironical. You don't wear a T-Shirt with NSA logo unless you idolize them or work for them.

I remember the first time I met Peter Todd, Jeff Garzik introduced him to me, he just seemed to pop out from nowhere. My encounter with him was brief. But I noticed he didn't swallow the bait even then. So I don't really know his real motive being in the Bitcoin game.

lolololololol

I got that shirt from the Electronic Freedom Foundation's booth at 31c3: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/back-popular-demand-nsa-spying-t-shirts-members

Sadly the NSA isn't sufficiently self-aware to sell shirts saying "ALL YOUR DATA" with glowering, red-eyed eagle's... but they should be.

And for the record, I'm a Canadian - I work for CSIS, not the NSA.

traitor!
Shindo1988
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May 05, 2015, 12:28:59 PM
 #74



Take a look at this picture of Peter Todd, look at his T-Shirt and tell me he's being ironical. You don't wear a T-Shirt with NSA logo unless you idolize them or work for them.

I remember the first time I met Peter Todd, Jeff Garzik introduced him to me, he just seemed to pop out from nowhere. My encounter with him was brief. But I noticed he didn't swallow the bait even then. So I don't really know his real motive being in the Bitcoin game.

lolololololol

I got that shirt from the Electronic Freedom Foundation's booth at 31c3: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/back-popular-demand-nsa-spying-t-shirts-members

Sadly the NSA isn't sufficiently self-aware to sell shirts saying "ALL YOUR DATA" with glowering, red-eyed eagle's... but they should be.

And for the record, I'm a Canadian - I work for CSIS, not the NSA.

traitor!

LOL!
We should hunt him down like Edwart Snowden.
Then he shall seek refuge in Russia!!!

LOL!!!!
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JorgeStolfi
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June 28, 2015, 02:58:16 PM
Last edit: June 28, 2015, 03:27:26 PM by JorgeStolfi
 #75

Maybe. A fork will severely damage the price.

The hard fork to increase the max block size should have been a no-brainer and a non-event, a routine maintenance  action predicted  and proposed by Satoshi himself when he added the arbitrary 1 MB limit.  Why has it become the most dreadful menace to the future of bitcoin?

My best guess is that the promises that the Blockcstream guys made to their investors, when they got their funding, depend on there being no block size increase, no matter how modest.  That would explain their uncompromising and hysterical opposition to the increase -- and the changes that they are making to the protocol.

Specifically, I guess that they promised investors that bitcoin network would become congested by 2016, and then users would be forced to move to some "overlay network" that would carry most of the payment traffic, with only occasional settlements being made on the old bitcoin network.  

Blockstream (they must have said) would then be the key player in that "overlay space", because they already were developing the technology that will make the overlay network possible (sidechains, at the time).  Moreover, since several key developers were partners or employees of Blocksrteam, they had commit control of BitcoinCore, the "official" implementation of the protocol; so they would be able to make any change that they needed to the protocol (like new opcodes), while blocking any change that competitors may need, or that might make the overlay network economically unattractive -- such as a block size increase.  

But (the investors must have asked) if the capacity of the bitcoin network itself is not increased, the number of transactions will forever be limited to 300'000 per day; so how will mining continue to be viable while the block reward gets halved?  Well, Blockstream's forecast (and this is no guess) is that by 2016, as the network becomes congested, there will arise a "fee market", where bitcoin users would have to offer higher and higher fees in order to buy space on the next block.  If the average transaction fee increased to 1.5 USD or more, the revenue from fees (450'000 USD/day) would compensate the halving of the block reward, and there would be no drop in the hashpower.    

To make that "fee market" more "efficient", Blockstream was counting on a couple of changes to the queue-management part of the core software ("replace-by-fee" and "child-pays-for-parent") that would allow clients to increment the fees of transactions that were stuck in the queue, and thus jump over other transactions with smaller fees.

According to this plan, the bitcoin network would be worth using only for large-value transactions, including the "export" of bitcoins to sidechains and settlements between the sidechains.  (Since then it became clear that sidechains will not work as intended, but Blockstream found a new vaporware to take their place in the plan, the Lightning Network.)  Most of the individual users, and services like BitPay and Bitstamp, would be forced to move to the overlay network.  

If that is the plan that they sold to their investors, their attitude would made perfect sense.  Gavin's proposal to increase the block size not only would postpone the need for the overlay network by many years, but also would show that Blockstream did not have control of the protocol.   The investors who bought those claims would be quite displeased, to put it mildly.  

So, at first Blockstream tried to block Gavin's proposal with the claim that it would make nodes terribly expensive.  Which is nonsense, since an increase in the *max size*  would not cause any immediate change to the *average size*: the latter would just continue growing (hopefully) at the current rate, and increase (gradually) beyond 1 MB only in a few years time.  But since the increase proposal has been reduced to 8 MB, they ran out of technical arguments.  So they had to resort to spreading FUD about the terrible risk of a hard fork (while doing soft forks themselves) and personal attacks on Gavin and Mike.

I have no particular admiration for Gavin.  He should have distanced himself from the Shrem Karpelès & Friends Foundation when it started to smell bad; instead, he stayed there as long as it was paying his salary, and even criticized Antonopoulos for leaving it.  And I had not noticed Mike's existence until a month ago.  

Yet I must recognize that they are only trying to keep bitcoin working for a few more years as it was intended to work, and as all the community has come to expect it to work.  Blockstream, on the other hand, is honoring their name, in an ironic and unintended way: their plan is to block the bitcoin stream, so that all the bitcoiners are forced to buy their water...

Moreover, Gavin and Mike have the prudence, competence, technical knowledge, and common sense that are needed to manage a large software project like bitcoin, that manages hundreds of millions of dollars for hundreds of thousands of users.  

Whereas the new core developers, while they may be expert cryptographers and clever hackers, clearly lack those qualities. They seem unable to understand Mike's explanation of how queues behave as the traffic approaches the channel's capacity.  They are unable to see the "fee market" will not be a market but a chaotic melee.  They cannot make any quantitative estimates of what the traffic and fees will be in their planned future. (Had they done so, they would see that an overlay network will not solve the scalability problem, either.)  

One of them explained that all wallet apps out there would have to be modified, so that, instead of just signing a transaction offline, issuing it, and disconnecting, the client would have to first check the queues at the nodes to guess an appropriate minimum fee F, then sign several transactions with fees F, 2F, 4F, 8F, etc., issue the first one, then remain connected to the network, so that his wallet app can watch the queues, re-issuing the other versions as needed in order to remain in front of the the other clients (who are of course doing the same), until the transaction is confirmed; or until the app runs out of pre-signed transactions, and has to ask the client whether he wants to keep trying, in which case he would have to sign a few more.  And tha dev called it "a trivial change", because it would require only "a few lines of code ...

And, worst of all, they want to make bitcoin unusable for its stated goal, in order to force users to move to another network that has not been designed yet, may never work, will not be like bitcoin at all, and will not solve the scalability problem either...

As you may know, I am very skeptical about the long-term success of bitcoin, and I have no love at all for the pyramid investment scheme that has been built on top of it.  Yet, I was expecting to see years of slow price decline, perhaps even delayed by another price bubble or two.  But now, after watching this war and realizing what the players are up to, my hopes for a quick, spectacularly comical collapse have been revived...

  

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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June 28, 2015, 03:33:17 PM
 #76

similar thread here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1076841.0
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June 28, 2015, 05:14:41 PM
 #77

Maybe. A fork will severely damage the price.

The hard fork to increase the max block size should have been a no-brainer and a non-event, a routine maintenance  action predicted  and proposed by Satoshi himself when he added the arbitrary 1 MB limit.  Why has it become the most dreadful menace to the future of bitcoin?

My best guess is that the promises that the Blockcstream guys made to their investors, when they got their funding, depend on there being no block size increase, no matter how modest.  That would explain their uncompromising and hysterical opposition to the increase -- and the changes that they are making to the protocol.

Specifically, I guess that they promised investors that bitcoin network would become congested by 2016, and then users would be forced to move to some "overlay network" that would carry most of the payment traffic, with only occasional settlements being made on the old bitcoin network.  

Blockstream (they must have said) would then be the key player in that "overlay space", because they already were developing the technology that will make the overlay network possible (sidechains, at the time).  Moreover, since several key developers were partners or employees of Blocksrteam, they had commit control of BitcoinCore, the "official" implementation of the protocol; so they would be able to make any change that they needed to the protocol (like new opcodes), while blocking any change that competitors may need, or that might make the overlay network economically unattractive -- such as a block size increase.  

But (the investors must have asked) if the capacity of the bitcoin network itself is not increased, the number of transactions will forever be limited to 300'000 per day; so how will mining continue to be viable while the block reward gets halved?  Well, Blockstream's forecast (and this is no guess) is that by 2016, as the network becomes congested, there will arise a "fee market", where bitcoin users would have to offer higher and higher fees in order to buy space on the next block.  If the average transaction fee increased to 1.5 USD or more, the revenue from fees (450'000 USD/day) would compensate the halving of the block reward, and there would be no drop in the hashpower.    

To make that "fee market" more "efficient", Blockstream was counting on a couple of changes to the queue-management part of the core software ("replace-by-fee" and "child-pays-for-parent") that would allow clients to increment the fees of transactions that were stuck in the queue, and thus jump over other transactions with smaller fees.

According to this plan, the bitcoin network would be worth using only for large-value transactions, including the "export" of bitcoins to sidechains and settlements between the sidechains.  (Since then it became clear that sidechains will not work as intended, but Blockstream found a new vaporware to take their place in the plan, the Lightning Network.)  Most of the individual users, and services like BitPay and Bitstamp, would be forced to move to the overlay network.  

If that is the plan that they sold to their investors, their attitude would made perfect sense.  Gavin's proposal to increase the block size not only would postpone the need for the overlay network by many years, but also would show that Blockstream did not have control of the protocol.   The investors who bought those claims would be quite displeased, to put it mildly.  

So, at first Blockstream tried to block Gavin's proposal with the claim that it would make nodes terribly expensive.  Which is nonsense, since an increase in the *max size*  would not cause any immediate change to the *average size*: the latter would just continue growing (hopefully) at the current rate, and increase (gradually) beyond 1 MB only in a few years time.  But since the increase proposal has been reduced to 8 MB, they ran out of technical arguments.  So they had to resort to spreading FUD about the terrible risk of a hard fork (while doing soft forks themselves) and personal attacks on Gavin and Mike.

I have no particular admiration for Gavin.  He should have distanced himself from the Shrem Karpelès & Friends Foundation when it started to smell bad; instead, he stayed there as long as it was paying his salary, and even criticized Antonopoulos for leaving it.  And I had not noticed Mike's existence until a month ago.  

Yet I must recognize that they are only trying to keep bitcoin working for a few more years as it was intended to work, and as all the community has come to expect it to work.  Blockstream, on the other hand, is honoring their name, in an ironic and unintended way: their plan is to block the bitcoin stream, so that all the bitcoiners are forced to buy their water...

Moreover, Gavin and Mike have the prudence, competence, technical knowledge, and common sense that are needed to manage a large software project like bitcoin, that manages hundreds of millions of dollars for hundreds of thousands of users.  

Whereas the new core developers, while they may be expert cryptographers and clever hackers, clearly lack those qualities. They seem unable to understand Mike's explanation of how queues behave as the traffic approaches the channel's capacity.  They are unable to see the "fee market" will not be a market but a chaotic melee.  They cannot make any quantitative estimates of what the traffic and fees will be in their planned future. (Had they done so, they would see that an overlay network will not solve the scalability problem, either.)  

One of them explained that all wallet apps out there would have to be modified, so that, instead of just signing a transaction offline, issuing it, and disconnecting, the client would have to first check the queues at the nodes to guess an appropriate minimum fee F, then sign several transactions with fees F, 2F, 4F, 8F, etc., issue the first one, then remain connected to the network, so that his wallet app can watch the queues, re-issuing the other versions as needed in order to remain in front of the the other clients (who are of course doing the same), until the transaction is confirmed; or until the app runs out of pre-signed transactions, and has to ask the client whether he wants to keep trying, in which case he would have to sign a few more.  And tha dev called it "a trivial change", because it would require only "a few lines of code ...

And, worst of all, they want to make bitcoin unusable for its stated goal, in order to force users to move to another network that has not been designed yet, may never work, will not be like bitcoin at all, and will not solve the scalability problem either...

As you may know, I am very skeptical about the long-term success of bitcoin, and I have no love at all for the pyramid investment scheme that has been built on top of it.  Yet, I was expecting to see years of slow price decline, perhaps even delayed by another price bubble or two.  But now, after watching this war and realizing what the players are up to, my hopes for a quick, spectacularly comical collapse have been revived...

  

Sir very interesting read. You write in a clear manner. but the whole wall of text hurt my eyeball. You should consider including a TL;DR summary whenever doing a long essay.

and yes, if it collapses due to its poor design flaws and dodgy patchwork, then yes I would agree with you that it would be a quick comical demise of btc but nonetheless it would have given humanity a blueprint.
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June 28, 2015, 05:41:24 PM
 #78

but nonetheless it would have given humanity a blueprint.

Bitcoin is still a very remarkable computer science experiment (that has become also a social and economical experiment, in ways that surely it was not intended to be).  It was a significant advance towards solving the old problem that it set to solve.  But it did not get there yet.

I am skeptical of its longterm success because it has still many flaws, that its fans, being unable to solve, prefer to call advantages.  To fix those flaws and allow it to achieve its stated goal, we need a few more ingenious inventions; which we cannot guess when oor whether they will be made.

Even if it succeeds, it will be just a cheaper, faster, easier, and maybe safer payment system.  It will not end crime, corruption, opression, hunger, wars, abuses of cops and courts, etc..  Clever technology alone cannot fix social, political, or economical problems.  On the contrary, technology often makes the problems worse.  Which we are seeing with bitcoin...

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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June 28, 2015, 05:48:24 PM
 #79

I am skeptical of its longterm success because it has still many flaws, that its fans, being unable to solve, prefer to call advantages.  To fix those flaws and allow it to achieve its stated goal, we need a few more ingenious inventions; which we cannot guess when oor whether they will be made.
The fundamental divide is between those whose goal is to create a wall of separation between money and State, and those do oppose that goal.
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June 28, 2015, 05:50:09 PM
 #80

To fix those flaws and allow it to achieve its stated goal, we need a few more ingenious inventions; which we cannot guess when oor whether they will be made.

What is Bitcoin's stated goal Jorge?

It is written right at the beginning of Satoshi's paper, as clearly as it could be.  That is why the protocol was designed as it was, and what the project was meant to achieve.

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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