delete Investor-based games section

[Xialla]

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

and this is exactly, what I meant by OP...anyway, it is not on me to decide, just saying there is imho huge negative impact to bitcoin generated by this section.

[XinXan]

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

and this is exactly, what I meant by OP...anyway, it is not on me to decide, just saying there is imho huge negative impact to bitcoin generated by this section.

The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

[Muhammed Zakir]

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

and this is exactly, what I meant by OP...anyway, it is not on me to decide, just saying there is imho huge negative impact to bitcoin generated by this section.

The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

There are cloud mining providers which are actually ponzi but they claim they ain't. If we start moderating ponzis, we will see more of these and it will be hard to differentiate scam and legitimate. Now, at least we know those are ponzis. What will happen if those come under new names and in different boards?

[XinXan]

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

and this is exactly, what I meant by OP...anyway, it is not on me to decide, just saying there is imho huge negative impact to bitcoin generated by this section.

The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

There are cloud mining providers which are actually ponzi but they claim they ain't. If we start moderating ponzis, we will see more of these and it will be hard to differentiate scam and legitimate. Now, at least we know those are ponzis. What will happen if those come under new names and in different boards?

Damn you always find a way to make them stay unmoderated, dont you, with you im refering to everyone. First of all, if you wanto cloud mine you ahould be doing it only on already trusted sites, how else can they even come like?? I dnt get your point at all.

[hilariousandco]

The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

There are cloud mining providers which are actually ponzi but they claim they ain't. If we start moderating ponzis, we will see more of these and it will be hard to differentiate scam and legitimate. Now, at least we know those are ponzis. What will happen if those come under new names and in different boards?

This is exactly it. It's not really about being difficult to moderate or mods not having the time etc but if we ban them then they will just come back and hide under the cover of being legitimate operations, thus duping more people into investing not knowing what they truly are. If you don't like ponzis just don't go in that section, but it's there for people who want to gamble/invest/throw their money away on them.

[Muhammed Zakir]

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

and this is exactly, what I meant by OP...anyway, it is not on me to decide, just saying there is imho huge negative impact to bitcoin generated by this section.

The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

There are cloud mining providers which are actually ponzi but they claim they ain't. If we start moderating ponzis, we will see more of these and it will be hard to differentiate scam and legitimate. Now, at least we know those are ponzis. What will happen if those come under new names and in different boards?

Damn you always find a way to make them stay unmoderated, dont you, with you im refering to everyone. First of all, if you wanto cloud mine you ahould be doing it only on already trusted sites, how else can they even come like?? I dnt get your point at all.

Keep your eyes open! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=878387.0

If what you said is rephrased: First of all, if you wan to invest, you should be doing it only on already trusted sites, how else can they even come like??

[XinXan]

The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

There are cloud mining providers which are actually ponzi but they claim they ain't. If we start moderating ponzis, we will see more of these and it will be hard to differentiate scam and legitimate. Now, at least we know those are ponzis. What will happen if those come under new names and in different boards?

This is exactly it. It's not really about being difficult to moderate or mods not having the time etc but if we ban them then they will just come back and hide under the cover of being legitimate operations, thus duping more people into investing not knowing what they truly are. If you don't like ponzis just don't go in that section, but it's there for people who want to gamble/invest/throw their money away on them.

So having a section called "investors based games" its a better idea? What do you think a newbie thinks when he sees something like that, clicks it and see only threads like "double your money" "350% back in 2 days" etc etc. some of them would probably fall for it without knowing what a ponzi is, if you want to mantain the section, call it "Ponzis and other games that are going to run away with your money someday"

[doves]

The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

There are cloud mining providers which are actually ponzi but they claim they ain't. If we start moderating ponzis, we will see more of these and it will be hard to differentiate scam and legitimate. Now, at least we know those are ponzis. What will happen if those come under new names and in different boards?

This is exactly it. It's not really about being difficult to moderate or mods not having the time etc but if we ban them then they will just come back and hide under the cover of being legitimate operations, thus duping more people into investing not knowing what they truly are. If you don't like ponzis just don't go in that section, but it's there for people who want to gamble/invest/throw their money away on them.

Are you saying that since we have a section dedicated to promoting ponzis, this somehow prevents bad actors from presenting ponzis as legitimate business?
By that logic, we should start a catchall section called "scamming and fraud," so the crooks could post there, and the rest of the forum would become 1000% legit.
Am I missing something?

[shorena]

Hey there,

I just want to ask you, if you think that we need this section on this forum and what is purpose? Concentrate scammers and frauds to one place?

Yes we need it, its purpose is to distinguish the ponzi style games from other forms of gambling. It is possible that these games are indeed that, a game. They are not provably fair, or at least I have not seen a variant that is, but that does not mean the operator is scamming.

In last couple of days, I start observing the section daily and spend couple of hours here. ALL (and yes, I'm not aware using word ALL here) threads here had just one purpose and it is steal people bitcoin, lure them to invest BTC and vanish.

Even you can say, that it is problem of those guys, which decided to invest..it is just throwing really bad impression to whole bitcoin, just because those scammed people are also real people from real world and they have to exchange their earned money to BTC. And then they lost them..and you know what. They will just say "bitcoin is scam" instead of "somebody scammed me". I really think that negative effect of this subsection is much higher then positive one (if there is any)
-snip-

You dont get into that section by accident, it has a big red warning attached to it. If that is not helping, banning those kind of games is neither.

Also, this way you can easily set in your profile to not see that area anymore, which you just reminded me to do  

wow really this is possible? so what about hide this section for all new acc and had some warning message before enabling it..?

also..how to make in invisible?

Blatantly censoring a section is not a good solution. If newbie dont know the section exists they can not make a choice.

-snip-
Because ponzi is the definition of scam, you can just search on wikipedia, it will tell you its a scam, if you search roulette or dice it doesnt say its a scam. Provably fair and odds, what are your odds on ponzies? Uncertain, no one knows, the owner could run any minute with your money.

Its like smoking, its bad and everyone knows it, yet people chose to do it, but that doesnt make it a good thing, it only makes them stupid

There are many luck based games where you can tell the odds in advance. Not knowing the odds does not equal scam. Gambling is not inherently bad, neither is smoking, both are only bad if you have no control over it. If you smoke once in a blue moon you are not living unhealthy. If you gamble recreational with small controlled amount and you are aware of the risks involved you are not an idiot.

Besides one should be able to make a deliberate choice to ruin oneself, be that through gambling or through drugs. Prohibition is not going to change what people do it is at best hindering the flow of information.

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi cloud mining on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

Lets get rid of the service section while we are at it.

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi credit card fraud on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

digital goods gone

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi scam coin on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

blow away the alt coin section. All hail the nanny state.

-snip-
The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

The staff does not get involved in these matters. It would allow misuse and would result in a false sense of security for the users. This cloud mining site must be legit, the staff did not delete it yet.

-snip-
Damn you always find a way to make them stay unmoderated, dont you, with you im refering to everyone. First of all, if you wanto cloud mine you ahould be doing it only on already trusted sites, how else can they even come like?? I dnt get your point at all.

Are you going to decide who is trustworthy and who is not? Without fail, in advance, for everything?

[doves]

-snip-

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi credit card fraud on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

digital goods gone
-snip-

No, you got that exactly backwards. I'm saying that starting a "Credit Card Fraud" section on Bitcointalk is a bad idea.

According to "let's have a ponzi section" logic, we *should* start a "credit card fraud" section.
That way, all the credit card fraud will be gone from digital goods.
Rinse & repeat for your other points.

If you don't understand why having a section of Bitcointalk dedicated specifically to credit card fraud may not be wise from PR perspective, I can expand on that.

[shorena]

-snip-

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi credit card fraud on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

digital goods gone
-snip-

No, you got that exactly backwards. I'm saying that starting a "Credit Card Fraud" section on Bitcointalk is a bad idea.

According to "let's have a ponzi section" logic, is start a "credit card fraud" section.
That way, all the credit card fraud will be gone from digital goods.
Rinse & repeat for your other points.

You did not get it apparently. The equivalent is a gift card section, because there are so many gift card sales in digital goods that it makes the section useless for anything else. Fun fact: This actually has been requested for domain names several times in the past. Now you have a section for gift cards, but you dont know which seller is legit and which is not. Same with the ponzi games(!) section. There is a seperate section because of the high amount of traffic regarding this kind of gambling.

How do you seperate those running a game from those running with your coin? You can claim that they all will run and I would believe you, but you have to prove it.

[XinXan]

Well shorena, someone has to decide whats right and whats wrong, you cant be 100% accurate, of course not but because you cant doesnt mean you should let every scammer do whatever they want, by your logic default trust should be eliminated aswell, since how do we know that people who is on default list is 100% correct always when they mark someone as a scammer or red trust them? Are you willing to delete default trust?

[Muhammed Zakir]

Well shorena, someone has to decide whats right and whats wrong, you cant be 100% accurate, of course not but because you cant doesnt mean you should let every scammer do whatever they want, by your logic default trust should be eliminated aswell, since how do we know that people who is on default list is 100% correct always when they mark someone as a scammer or red trust them? Are you willing to delete default trust?

People in default trust list aren't 100% accurate but they are more accurate than others.

[shorena]

Well shorena, someone has to decide whats right and whats wrong, you cant be 100% accurate, of course not but because you cant doesnt mean you should let every scammer do whatever they want, by your logic default trust should be eliminated aswell, since how do we know that people who is on default list is 100% correct always when they mark someone as a scammer or red trust them? Are you willing to delete default trust?

Im certainly willing to discuss default trust issue in a thread for that, yes. No reason to distract from the topic at hand.
I am not asking for anyone to be 100% correct, you are. You want the scams removed, but keep the legit games. I dont know how you can decide that. I want everyone to make their own decision. Maybe <insert dice gambling site here> is a scam, there is no way to know in advance.

-snip-
If you don't understand why having a section of Bitcointalk dedicated specifically to credit card fraud may not be wise from PR perspective, I can expand on that.

Edits might not get seen, its probably best if you post from your main or sit out the waiting period. The section is not named ponzis go here for a reason. If those operating these sites are legit, its a legit form of gambling. Other forms of gambling e.g. dice sites that allow crowd investments have the same trust issues and can not be considered provably fair to the investor either.

[doves]

-snip-

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi credit card fraud on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

digital goods gone
-snip-

No, you got that exactly backwards. I'm saying that starting a "Credit Card Fraud" section on Bitcointalk is a bad idea.

According to "let's have a ponzi section" logic, is start a "credit card fraud" section.
That way, all the credit card fraud will be gone from digital goods.
Rinse & repeat for your other points.

You did not get it apparently. The equivalent is a gift card section, because there are so many gift card sales in digital goods that it makes the section useless for anything else. Fun fact: This actually has been requested for domain names several times in the past. Now you have a section for gift cards, but you dont know which seller is legit and which is not. Same with the ponzi games(!) section. There is a seperate section because of the high amount of traffic regarding this kind of gambling.

How do you seperate those running a game from those running with your coin? You can claim that they all will run and I would believe you, but you have to prove it.

You've suggested that existance of credit card fraud would mean deletion of the digital goods section.
I've pointed out that no, it wouldn't. It would only mean that we must start a "Credit Card Fraud" section.

Existance of ponzi schemes did not mean the end of the end of the digital goods section. On the contrary, it brought about the *creation of ponzi section*.

See the parallels?

In other words, if BADTHING exists, we should accomodate it by starting a new subforum for it.

As far as separating the good ponzis from the bad ponzis? How about we ban the good and the bad, just like they do everywhere else in the world?

This is a Bitcoin forum, about Bitcoin. A privite forum, not obligated to become a platform for every fucking scam that was ousted from the rest of the world.

[XinXan]

Well shorena, someone has to decide whats right and whats wrong, you cant be 100% accurate, of course not but because you cant doesnt mean you should let every scammer do whatever they want, by your logic default trust should be eliminated aswell, since how do we know that people who is on default list is 100% correct always when they mark someone as a scammer or red trust them? Are you willing to delete default trust?

Im certainly willing to discuss default trust issue in a thread for that, yes. No reason to distract from the topic at hand.
I am not asking for anyone to be 100% correct, you are. You want the scams removed, but keep the legit games. I dont know how you can decide that. I want everyone to make their own decision. Maybe <insert dice gambling site here> is a scam, there is no way to know in advance.

-snip-
If you don't understand why having a section of Bitcointalk dedicated specifically to credit card fraud may not be wise from PR perspective, I can expand on that.

Edits might not get seen, its probably best if you post from your main or sit out the waiting period. The section is not named ponzis go here for a reason. If those operating these sites are legit, its a legit form of gambling. Other forms of gambling e.g. dice sites that allow crowd investments have the same trust issues and can not be considered provably fair to the investor either.

How can mods decide who is posting constructive stuff and who is not? Because recently i have seen a lot of people banned complaining here, this has to do with the topic because mods answer for investor based games not being deleted is that it wouldnt be possible to identify those scams that are disguised as games, in my opinion it would be possible

[shorena]

-snip-
See the parallels?

In other words, if BADTHING exists, we should accomodate it by starting a new subforum for it.

How do you know its "BADTHING" and not "FORM OF GAMBLING"?

-snip-
How can mods decide who is posting constructive stuff and who is not?

Its subjective, but I think BadBear can judge whether a post is contributing to the discussion. If you cant stay on topic it makes no sense to keep this discussion going.

Because recently i have seen a lot of people banned complaining here, this has to do with the topic because mods answer for investor based games not being deleted is that it wouldnt be possible to identify those scams that are disguised as games, in my opinion it would be possible

How? How would you have told in advance that dice.ninja, hashie, etc. pp. was going to scam? Keep in mind that you are not asking for a users opinion, but for a staff enforced rule. Thus everyone else would blame you for their loss if you make a single bad prediction.

[doves]

-snip-
If you don't understand why having a section of Bitcointalk dedicated specifically to credit card fraud may not be wise from PR perspective, I can expand on that.

Edits might not get seen, its probably best if you post from your main or sit out the waiting period. The section is not named ponzis go here for a reason. If those operating these sites are legit, its a legit form of gambling. Other forms of gambling e.g. dice sites that allow crowd investments have the same trust issues and can not be considered provably fair to the investor either.

> its probably best if you post from your main
Don't worry about it.

>The section is not named ponzis go here for a reason.
What's the reason?

-snip-
See the parallels?

In other words, if BADTHING exists, we should accomodate it by starting a new subforum for it.

How do you know its "BADTHING" and not "FORM OF GAMBLING"?

Have we shifted the topic to discussing whether Ponzis are bad? Up until now I assumed that we're in agreement on that? If you wish, I could explain why ponzis are illegal in most of the civilized world.

[shorena]

-snip-
>The section is not named ponzis go here for a reason.
What's the reason?

They are games based on an "investment", a form of PvP gambling. A ponzi is not openly telling you that it is one, it will try to hide the fact that they do nothing but moving funds around until the very end. A ponzi is by definition a scam, but its based on secrecy. Same with the gift cards, you cant tell in advance which ones are carded and which not.

-snip-

-snip-

How do you know its "BADTHING" and not "FORM OF GAMBLING"?

Have we shifted the topic to discussing whether Ponzis are bad? Up until now I assumed that we're in agreement on that? If you wish, I could explain why ponzis are illegal in most of the civilized world.

No, I agree that a ponzi is bad. I would also not play the games in this section, but I will defend the right to play them for those that want to. If you cant see the difference between the game based on a ponzi principle and a straight ponzi I understand you, because I had problems understanding this concept at first as well.

[Xialla]

shorena thanks for insight and I agree here:

1* we should not censorship some sections to newbies

2* is good, that we had all this shit on one place.

with this in my mind, actually makes more sense to leave as is, I'm just pissed to see guys daily loosing BTC here, that's all..