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Author Topic: Recent dadice.com development  (Read 7659 times)
shorena
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May 20, 2015, 09:21:39 PM
Last edit: August 01, 2015, 09:03:26 AM by shorena
 #1

Today I resigned from the dadice.com signature campaign and left negative ratings on all known dadice accounts.

I would like to use this thread to explain my reasons behind this. There is a full copy of their thread linked below if you want to read everything in detail.

#1 NLNico asked for a cold storrage address to be made public in order to verify the bankroll.
screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/VCoewnP.png

#2 They declined because crowd funding is below 10% of the site
screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/FpWzbHl.png

#3 After this was not accepted as a reason, they stated "others dont do it either"
screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/Dgxi0Qx.png

#4 After they have been presented with a list of examples of others that show their cold storrage address, they stated they have a large secret investor that prohibits this for privacy concerns.
screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/FTDDH0o.png

#5 After they have been made aware that this makes them look shady and might hurt their business, they stated that its a risk they are willing to take.
screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/OKUReNF.png

#6 A quick summary of arguments by NLNico.
screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/EekzAxc.png

#7 The privacy issue is not a valid point (as was nicely explained by NLNico) due to the fact that the majority of the bankroll is provided by the dadice team themselves and could thus be presented.
screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/iIwNVU4.png

#8 They answer: we dont do it, period.
screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/eE2puVY.png

#9 Stunna offers to vouch for them.
screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/Md27P5z.png

#10 They still refuse to provide anything and instead disable investments.
screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/jX9zBiY.png

There is also plenty of drama regarding this, I tried to keep this out of this post as much as possible.

Every reasonable argument has been stubbornly waved aside by the dadice team. Many of the arguments given have been used by other services that turned bad in the past. I obviously can not predict the future and have no way of knowing whether they will run with your funds or not, providing a cold storrage address will also not prevent this sort of events[1], but I do not recommend playing or investing there. They show all warning signs of a scam.


dadice_dev (BCT ID 512841)
link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=512841

Da_Dice_Staff (BCT ID 464340)
link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=464340

dadice (BCT ID 444316)
link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=444316

dadice_pr (BCT ID 538753)
link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=538753
as mentioned by Quickseller here -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1066980.msg11991333#msg11991333

dadice thread full archive up until post #1623 https://archive.is/QvvpM


[1] Edit: 2015.07.28 - thanks ndnhc
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May 20, 2015, 09:34:09 PM
 #2

From what I can tell, these complaints add up to this:

Someone wants proof about bankroll, dadice decides not to provide proof.

Is there really anything more to it than that?

I can see why they wouldn't feel good about revealing their resources to Stunna (their biggest competitor, right?).

EDIT: I also want to stay away from any drama.  I'm not an investor in the site but at the moment I'm not seeing the sketchy part of this and I'm wondering if competitors of dadice are merely stirring up FUD to hurt their business.  I dunno the facts, but I'm curious about the motivations of the parties involved.
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May 20, 2015, 09:39:10 PM
 #3

Wouldn't be the first time a dice site has gone rogue. Anyone remember the previous two?

Sucks for whoever still plays dice. What options are left now that primedice doesn't accept US players and most are to lazy to use a proxy, vpn or tor or just don't feel safe using them. Time to start converting to clam for just-dice? Would be nice for those already invested or planning on investing in clam  Wink

Shocked how big dadice has gotten when the previous dice sites pretty much did the same exact thing. Not saying they plan on running with funds or anything like that but if they do, those who have seen what happened to the previous two dice sites should have known better and can't blame anyone but themselves.
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May 20, 2015, 09:40:18 PM
 #4

I just want to add my two cent worth of thoughts here...

1. Someone mentioned DaDice hot wallet earlier (https://blockchain.info/address/1HMAgvunJzr3HoRAUFg3VuU2UJm9KWDjFu) and its clear Da Dice has paid 108+ BTC, Which is a very reasonable amount for a new dice site.

2. Da Dice as far as I have seen has been honouring all withdrawal requests. I have seen users been paid up to 18 BTC per request here.

3. The only person who should be demanding a cold storage address is the one who is investor of Da Dice himself. No other person, 3rd party casino owner has any right to tell Da Dice how to run there business. You cannot compel Da Dice to do something just because you have done it or somebody else would have done it.

4. Da Dice doesn't promote/spread/chant "Invest Here!!!" slogans. Da Dice (as its well known) started with Bankroll of 500 BTC, If over 108+ BTC have been paid out, and Bank roll is nearly double right now it is a VERY HEALTHY sign from Da Dice.

5. Da Dice doesn't force its users to invest. Investors are free to do their own due diligence proir to making any sort of decision, anyone including dean and stunna have no right to do this for others. Making an investment or not on Da Dice is solely on any individual's own determination. Da Dice doesn't force its users to invest nor any sort of investment is required to benefit from Da Dice.

6. Sharing your "concerns" here 1 time is reasonable, doing it again and again is SPAMMING and THREAD HIJACKING.

7. Last but not least, let us also agree to the fact that no other dice site would be threatned right now if they also didn't agree to fact that Da Dice is gaining popularity very fast and is (for fact) way superior then all other current ones in industry.
 

Keep it Simple!
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May 20, 2015, 09:47:36 PM
 #5

From what I can tell, these complaints add up to this:

Someone wants proof about bankroll, dadice decides not to provide proof.

Is there really anything more to it than that?

I can see why they wouldn't feel good about revealing their resources to Stunna (their biggest competitor, right?).

Im willing to remove the ratings if a trusted, neutral party (e.g. devthedev, tomatocage, DannyHamilton) has verified the bankroll.

Its not only the fact that they do not make the existence of funds public, but also the attitude towards IMHO valid criticism. They come up with new reasons for every one that is refuted. I have seen this highly defensive behaviour in the past and I cant say that any good came out of it.

Wouldn't be the first time a dice site has gone rogue. Anyone remember the previous two?

You are probably refering to dice.ninja and dicebitco.in.

-removed formatting-
I just want to add my two cent worth of thoughts here...

You are welcome to.

1. Someone mentioned DaDice hot wallet earlier (https://blockchain.info/address/1HMAgvunJzr3HoRAUFg3VuU2UJm9KWDjFu) and its clear Da Dice has paid 108+ BTC, Which is a very reasonable amount for a new dice site.

Yes I checked that, the address was funded by their deposit addresses. ~600 different ones IIRC. Which is a reasonable amount of players for a new dice site.

2. Da Dice as far as I have seen has been honouring all withdrawal requests. I have seen users been paid up to 18 BTC per request here.

3. The only person who should be demanding a cold storage address is the one who is investor of Da Dice himself. No other person, 3rd party casino owner has any right to tell Da Dice how to run there business. You cannot compel Da Dice to do something just because you have done it or somebody else would have done it.

The way they handle this is the reason I am not an investor currently.

4. Da Dice doesn't promote/spread/chant "Invest Here!!!" slogans. Da Dice (as its well known) started with Bankroll of 500 BTC, If over 108+ BTC have been paid out, and Bank roll is nearly double right now it is a VERY HEALTHY sign from Da Dice.

It is claimed that they have 500 BTC, it is not "well known".


5. Da Dice doesn't force its users to invest. Investors are free to do their own due diligence proir to making any sort of decision, anyone including dean and stunna have no right to do this for others. Making an investment or not on Da Dice is solely on any individual's own determination. Da Dice doesn't force its users to invest nor any sort of investment is required to benefit from Da Dice.

I am not forcing anyone either. It is however important to makeing an educated choice to see different opinions on a matter. If you are only ever confronted with a single perspective how is your decision to follow it an educated one?

6. Sharing your "concerns" here 1 time is reasonable, doing it again and again is SPAMMING and THREAD HIJACKING.

I like how you just copied this even though it is not applicable here.

7. Last but not least, let us also agree to the fact that no other dice site would be threatned right now if they also didn't agree to fact that Da Dice is gaining popularity very fast and is (for fact) way superior then all other current ones in industry.


Keep it Simple!

Sure if no one cares about you, no one will criticise you.
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May 20, 2015, 09:58:14 PM
 #6

From what I can tell, these complaints add up to this:

Someone wants proof about bankroll, dadice decides not to provide proof.

Is there really anything more to it than that?

I can see why they wouldn't feel good about revealing their resources to Stunna (their biggest competitor, right?).

EDIT: I also want to stay away from any drama.  I'm not an investor in the site but at the moment I'm not seeing the sketchy part of this and I'm wondering if competitors of dadice are merely stirring up FUD to hurt their business.  I dunno the facts, but I'm curious about the motivations of the parties involved.

i agree, with accusations as big as this, i would steer far away from this drama and just watch how it unfolds. I understand how they wouldnt want to reveal their bankrol lthe stunna, but he is a very trusted and well established member of the community; his vouch wouldve cleared any suspicions of the site.
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May 20, 2015, 10:02:25 PM
 #7

-snip-
EDIT: I also want to stay away from any drama.  I'm not an investor in the site but at the moment I'm not seeing the sketchy part of this and I'm wondering if competitors of dadice are merely stirring up FUD to hurt their business.  I dunno the facts, but I'm curious about the motivations of the parties involved.

Didnt see your edit. I see the sketchy part. I have been blind in the past. I just cant stand on the sidelines and let this unfold any longer. I dont like drama either and will do my best to avoid it, but I also feel I have to make sure the warning signs are seen.
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May 20, 2015, 10:04:16 PM
 #8

IMO All dice sites are going to die in the end, one way or the other.  Perhaps they just didn't want to post it, or maybe they have something to hide.  Either way, I've PMed them and let's see how they respond.
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May 20, 2015, 10:05:29 PM
 #9

You are probably refering to dice.ninja and dicebitco.in.

Those are the two sites.

Don't play dice myself but know several people who do and they haven't had any problems at dadice and were able to withdrawal 1+ BTC several times. All I'm saying is anyone who is keeping BTC at the site or planning to invest should be suspicious, especially when dadice is growing fast just like the two sites mentioned above did.
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May 20, 2015, 10:13:26 PM
Last edit: May 21, 2015, 12:13:32 AM by Dobry Den
 #10

Notice how everyone trying to minimize this situation has a DaDice signature. Roll Eyes

Unfortunately for DaDice, sig jockeys aren't a stand-in PR team.
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May 20, 2015, 10:21:31 PM
 #11

Any gambling site should be willing to show proof of solvency, at the very least to a neutral party for verification.

Any gambling site that says, on the site, "90% of the coins are held in one cold storage address which will be displayed to our members, thereby allowing for full transparency to all of DaDice members." better be displaying that cold storage address to it's members.

Any excuses as to why they aren't doing something that they should be doing, and something that they've promised to do, can't be taken in any way other than they are trying to hide something.
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May 20, 2015, 10:29:53 PM
 #12

1. Someone mentioned DaDice hot wallet earlier (https://blockchain.info/address/1HMAgvunJzr3HoRAUFg3VuU2UJm9KWDjFu) and its clear Da Dice has paid 108+ BTC, Which is a very reasonable amount for a new dice site.
Yes I checked that, the address was funded by their deposit addresses. ~600 different ones IIRC. Which is a reasonable amount of players for a new dice site.
Yes, it appears that all TX's into that address are from the DaDice Hot Wallet.


Looking through the transaction history of 1HMAgvunJzr3HoRAUFg3VuU2UJm9KWDjFu there is a few transactions of interest. There is txid 5359858afea90c2628e83aa540e4c8c407307c73dd5e12776627a627e93afc14 that had sent ~28 BTC to 1HMAgvunJzr3HoRAUFg3VuU2UJm9KWDjFu then the following transaction, txid 3743839633b8500ab67ddde191ae2cb4d8578ae62f9a95153ab9ef9d6d8dc811 sent ~18 BTC to 13T1eoJTe9mCMdNpYaCE26DNKqPjxNZrqu which is a known Bitfinex address.

Previously, txid 8d141b3a68b662ee0b9eda5aa473394fd4164645b699acdc656238c4d8022f91 sent ~ 2 BTC to the same address as above after receiving 2 BTC from the DaDice Hot Wallet (their deposit addresses).

Prior to that, txid 2f3890a7a01cac24103187215f9604f8360ccbbbf05c2c987d57ba1aa53b056c was sent from their deposit addresses to 1HMAg... then the following tx (txid e69e9c02b1f5af48c2fd52d73b1edb28c80ed629e896b0afda8f7db42bef48ed) sent 10 BTC to 157sSisTvWJyGKEzGrsPjr85rcvaRx9gei which is a known LBC address.

Prior to that txid eda31938a18195c80bc910a279dc4fd5547f65a69f49bc5209b99f0accd403aa sent 2 BTC to the 1HMAg.... address and the following transaction sent 1.4 BTC to 1Hhpf847U3xvpx66dYhrJTZmAWL6hSuGJa which on the following transaction (txid 6d94eb1b1fecf8b1d5e6577e987f19a39434206932674105a7752d5f11841f63) to 1E3yepRj7A2WwSE3yghS8bQPrVPWGXfEWj which is a known Agora Market address (a Dark Net Market).

The vast majority of the remainder of the transactions out of the 1HMAg.... address are for dust amounts (under .01).

I would also question how exactly their large investors ever got their money to them in the first place. In theory their investors would deposit into their deposit address, that address would be spend-linked to the rest of their deposit addresses and then it would be moved to cold storage. However this is clearly not the case. There are no large amounts going into or out of the two known DaDice wallets (mentioned above) of any meaningful magnitude.

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May 20, 2015, 10:47:04 PM
 #13

Stunna may actually have more information about this situation then he realizes. Looking at the transaction history of 13T1eoJTe9mCMdNpYaCE26DNKqPjxNZrqu, it looks like txid 57e0fa2b8b48c7b50eb69d5b313a4b51671eb68813a5709a9158999d6206ec0a had inputs from a PD address (actually several addresses) and a single output to 13T1eoJTe9mCMdNpYaCE26DNKqPjxNZrqu which is the address that several transactions were sent from the DaDice Hot Wallet (not their customer deposit address wallet). He may be able to give the username who withdrew funds via that txid as well as their betting history (did they actually play a significant amount of bets or did they deposit 18+ BTC simply to "wash" their funds).

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May 20, 2015, 10:53:18 PM
 #14

Stunna may actually have more information about this situation then he realizes. Looking at the transaction history of 13T1eoJTe9mCMdNpYaCE26DNKqPjxNZrqu, it looks like txid 57e0fa2b8b48c7b50eb69d5b313a4b51671eb68813a5709a9158999d6206ec0a had inputs from a PD address (actually several addresses) and a single output to 13T1eoJTe9mCMdNpYaCE26DNKqPjxNZrqu which is the address that several transactions were sent from the DaDice Hot Wallet (not their customer deposit address wallet). He may be able to give the username who withdrew funds via that txid as well as their betting history (did they actually play a significant amount of bets or did they deposit 18+ BTC simply to "wash" their funds).

that is quite possible, many people often use dice sites as a bitcoin tumbler.
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May 20, 2015, 11:35:27 PM
 #15

From what I can tell, these complaints add up to this:

Someone wants proof about bankroll, dadice decides not to provide proof.

Is there really anything more to it than that?

I can see why they wouldn't feel good about revealing their resources to Stunna (their biggest competitor, right?).

EDIT: I also want to stay away from any drama.  I'm not an investor in the site but at the moment I'm not seeing the sketchy part of this and I'm wondering if competitors of dadice are merely stirring up FUD to hurt their business.  I dunno the facts, but I'm curious about the motivations of the parties involved.

That's pretty much it, except that it is standard practice for sites holding investments to publish proof of solvency. They often don't do it without being asked, but once asked it's weird for them to refuse. DaDice has refused, which makes people think they have something to hide.

They already have "revealed" their resources, they just didn't prove that their revelation is true. That's what people are asking for here.

As for motivations I'm sure there's a certain amount of wanting to damage the competition, as well as "we had to do it so why shouldn't they?", but for the most part I think people want to hold them to the same level of transparency as the other sites offer.

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May 21, 2015, 03:23:32 AM
Last edit: May 21, 2015, 04:18:32 AM by NLNico
 #16

From what I can tell, these complaints add up to this:

Someone wants proof about bankroll, dadice decides not to provide proof.

Is there really anything more to it than that?

I can see why they wouldn't feel good about revealing their resources to Stunna (their biggest competitor, right?).

EDIT: I also want to stay away from any drama.  I'm not an investor in the site but at the moment I'm not seeing the sketchy part of this and I'm wondering if competitors of dadice are merely stirring up FUD to hurt their business.  I dunno the facts, but I'm curious about the motivations of the parties involved.

For me personally these are really the things I did:

- Said that I planned to add DaDice to my site in the future - as I thought your site was promising.
- Made a DaDice verifier: http://dicesites.com/dadice/verifier - completely free of charge.
- Discretely reported a vulnerability that leaked all IPs of your players.
- Asked politely where the cold wallet address is at.
- And obviously now I keep explaining why it is important to have a public cold address and you keep having excuses...

With the verifier and vulnerability I obviously even helped them. And I was planning to even promote them in the future (for free, like all sites on my site.)

I have no intention at all of spreading FUD, I just wanted to see proof of solvency. A simple and standard thing to do.

For my personal benefit it would have been best to ignore the lack of solvency proof and add them to my site, since they have a big paying "referral promo" going on that could easily earn me 1 bitcoin. The #1 in that promo currently has 0.005 commission which would win 1 bitcoin - my site can seriously generate more than that by just listing the site. Since my site is not based on decisions that make me money at all, I chose to ask for the cold wallet instead (and explained why it was important.) After all the bad excuses, it's clear they don't have the claimed bankroll. This hurts them so much - while an hour of their time could easily prove their solvency. There is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't do it, except for the obvious one: they don't have the coins.

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May 21, 2015, 05:39:31 AM
 #17

From what I can tell, these complaints add up to this:

Someone wants proof about bankroll, dadice decides not to provide proof.

Is there really anything more to it than that?

I can see why they wouldn't feel good about revealing their resources to Stunna (their biggest competitor, right?).

EDIT: I also want to stay away from any drama.  I'm not an investor in the site but at the moment I'm not seeing the sketchy part of this and I'm wondering if competitors of dadice are merely stirring up FUD to hurt their business.  I dunno the facts, but I'm curious about the motivations of the parties involved.

That's pretty much it, except that it is standard practice for sites holding investments to publish proof of solvency. They often don't do it without being asked, but once asked it's weird for them to refuse. DaDice has refused, which makes people think they have something to hide.

They already have "revealed" their resources, they just didn't prove that their revelation is true. That's what people are asking for here.

As for motivations I'm sure there's a certain amount of wanting to damage the competition, as well as "we had to do it so why shouldn't they?", but for the most part I think people want to hold them to the same level of transparency as the other sites offer.


The thing is that, what do they lose by showing it? Nothing right? Wich makes people believe they are lying, even more after they tried to use silly excuses presented by shorena. Honestly if they just said no we dont to show it, it woul have been more credible

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May 21, 2015, 06:29:42 AM
 #18

With bitcoin it is so easy to prove solvency.. Although I can understand they won't prove it to every user requesting it, doing it every month or couple of months should be possible right?
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May 21, 2015, 06:38:32 AM
 #19

With bitcoin it is so easy to prove solvency.. Although I can understand they won't prove it to every user requesting it, doing it every month or couple of months should be possible right?

or they can just post the address in their website but due for some weird circumstances they can't even show it. So, Its better for whales not to play in the site maybe they can't afford to pay they up if they were to win like around 100-200BTC
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May 21, 2015, 06:40:12 AM
 #20

With bitcoin it is so easy to prove solvency.. Although I can understand they won't prove it to every user requesting it, doing it every month or couple of months should be possible right?

or they can just post the address in their website but due for some weird circumstances they can't even show it. So, Its better for whales not to play in the site maybe they can't afford to pay they up if they were to win like around 100-200BTC

They cant just post an address without signing it. Everybody can claim i own that i own this but cannot prove
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