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nikona
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May 21, 2015, 07:08:13 AM |
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The only end to these scams and discussions will be Primedice accepting investments, or Just dice reopening investments. Till then investors should dodge or avoid every single dice site for investments. Creating a dice site doesn't seem to be a much hard to do task for programmers, and a lot of them can just end as scams.
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ndnh
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New Decentralized Nuclear Hobbit
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May 21, 2015, 07:10:15 AM |
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Many are talking as if Da Dice is a scam. Find me a single scam accusation, lol.  How are you even comparing? Edit: People are unaware of the facts. There is no withdrawal that did not get honored. Nor are there any complaints regarding loss of funds, or anything related. This is pure speculation. Da Dice hasn't yet provided a Proof of Solvency. But, that doesn't make it a scam... A competitor just made random hits, and he got lucky at one.. |
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NLNico
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May 21, 2015, 07:34:59 AM |
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Ideally we prevent a scam, instead of just closing our eyes and let the scam with many losses happen :/ Withdrawals have nothing to do with solvency. MtGox was doing withdrawals for long time while not being solvent. Proof of solvency is a standard practice for dice sites that accept investments. After all the bad excuses, it's clear they don't have the claimed bankroll. This hurts them so much - while an hour of their time could easily prove their solvency. There is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't do it, except for the obvious one: they don't have the coins. Is it bad if they don't have the claimed bankroll? Yes, and that definitely makes them a scam in the making. So the accusations and warnings are 100% correct. The only time dice site didn't prove solvency was dice.ninja just days before they stole the 2k btc bankroll. Ideally we don't let that happen again, don't you think? I like to repeat how easy it is for them to prove us all wrong. AFAIK I am the one who mostly started to ask questions and I am not a competitor at all, nor do I make random hits. The only time I was involved in a "scam accusation discussion" like this was BTC-Arbs months before they scammed hundreds of coins. I understand the pages of the discussion is a long read, but please do read it a bit before defending a scam in the making. Especially considering you should have some moral conflict operating their signature campaign. I do -not- mean this personally or as attack to you, I am 100% serious that you should have a proper -objective- look at the situation. |
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Twipple
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May 21, 2015, 07:49:20 AM |
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Many are talking as if Da Dice is a scam. Find me a single scam accusation, lol. How are you even comparing? Edit: People are unaware of the facts. There is no withdrawal that did not get honored. Nor are there any complaints regarding loss of funds, or anything related. This is pure speculation. Da Dice hasn't yet provided a Proof of Solvency. But, that doesn't make it a scam... A competitor just made random hits, and he got lucky at one.. Did you know , A ponzi is not a scam unless it defaults on the payouts ? All the while it runs, its just like this claiming to have money, but shows no proof of it. Thanks to bitcoin , we can have that proof, and not showing it, just means one thing. The big investor excuse is stupid isn't it ? And now that trusted people are ready to verify solvency, refusing that means you know what. |
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LiQuidx
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May 21, 2015, 07:53:41 AM |
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Many are talking as if Da Dice is a scam. Find me a single scam accusation, lol. How are you even comparing? Edit: People are unaware of the facts. There is no withdrawal that did not get honored. Nor are there any complaints regarding loss of funds, or anything related. This is pure speculation. Da Dice hasn't yet provided a Proof of Solvency. But, that doesn't make it a scam... A competitor just made random hits, and he got lucky at one.. Did you know , A ponzi is not a scam unless it defaults on the payouts ? All the while it runs, its just like this claiming to have money, but shows no proof of it. Thanks to bitcoin , we can have that proof, and not showing it, just means one thing. The big investor excuse is stupid isn't it ? And now that trusted people are ready to verify solvency, refusing that means you know what. A ponzi will always end up as a scam if it claims that it will keep on paying indefinitely since at some point it WILL stop paying. |
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ndnh
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May 21, 2015, 08:11:27 AM |
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Many are talking as if Da Dice is a scam. Find me a single scam accusation, lol. How are you even comparing? Edit: People are unaware of the facts. There is no withdrawal that did not get honored. Nor are there any complaints regarding loss of funds, or anything related. This is pure speculation. Da Dice hasn't yet provided a Proof of Solvency. But, that doesn't make it a scam... A competitor just made random hits, and he got lucky at one.. Did you know , A ponzi is not a scam unless it defaults on the payouts ? All the while it runs, its just like this claiming to have money, but shows no proof of it. Thanks to bitcoin , we can have that proof, and not showing it, just means one thing. The big investor excuse is stupid isn't it ? And now that trusted people are ready to verify solvency, refusing that means you know what. Then you cannot trust any site whatsoever. A ponzi is a scam from the beginning. They either lie about their earning rates or tell you it is a ponzi in the first place. If you apply the same principles, you cannot trust any outsider except yourself.. The big investor excuse makes sense, if you really think about it. There are always workarounds. All you need is a proof that Da Dice has control over such amount of funds as it shows, right? They have also spent a lot in development of their site, as well as marketing. They can't spend it unless they had it in the first place.. |
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NLNico
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May 21, 2015, 08:18:42 AM |
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The big investor excuse makes sense, if you really think about it.
There are always workarounds. All you need is a proof that Da Dice has control over such amount of funds as it shows, right? Yes. That is all we are asking. Since DaDice claims to have 90+% of the funds themselves, I asked -multiple times- to just show their own coins only. So the investor excuse is completely irrelevant. Look, I don't blame you. They have been great for their players, you have been dealing always with success with them, they have been paying everyone etc etc.. so you truly believe they have those coins. I understand this from your perspective. But those watching objectively just want to see actual proof of solvency - and you seem to agree with that too. So yeh, all we ask for is proof they have those coins and this will be all solved. But it might be surprising to you if this proof never comes. They have had so many wrong excuses that those, who have not been "blinded" by how nice the DaDice team is, are seriously doubting that they have the coins. And scam accusations based on that are completely right. All they need to do is just prove their solvency. No big deal if they have the coins. |
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Twipple
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May 21, 2015, 08:26:26 AM |
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Then you cannot trust any site whatsoever. A ponzi is a scam from the beginning. They either lie about their earning rates or tell you it is a ponzi in the first place.
If you apply the same principles, you cannot trust any outsider except yourself..
Honestly, I don't trust any site , but its better to avoid sites which show higher chances of ending or running as a scam . Dadice is sort of doing that . |
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Twipple
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May 21, 2015, 08:31:15 AM |
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The big investor excuse makes sense, if you really think about it.
There are always workarounds. All you need is a proof that Da Dice has control over such amount of funds as it shows, right? Yes. That is all we are asking. Since DaDice claims to have 90+% of the funds themselves, I asked -multiple times- to just show their own coins only. So the investor excuse is completely irrelevant. Look, I don't blame you. They have been great for their players, you have been dealing always with success with them, they have been paying everyone etc etc.. so you truly believe they have those coins. I understand this from your perspective. But those watching objectively just want to see actual proof of solvency - and you seem to agree with that too. So yeh, all we ask for is proof they have those coins and this will be all solved. But it might be surprising to you if this proof never comes. They have had so many wrong excuses that those, who have not been "blinded" by how nice the DaDice team is, are seriously doubting that they have the coins. And scam accusations based on that are completely right. All they need to do is just prove their solvency. No big deal if they have the coins. Come to think of it, if it was any other business or site, and had the coins. They know that its important to keep the customers happy for the present and the future. What they would do in the normal case would be move the largest investor's coins to another wallet, and have another cold storage wallet for the normal funds. Then they can show proof of funds, to all or at least an escrow.
They have also spent a lot in development of their site, as well as marketing. They can't spend it unless they had it in the first place..
This is analogous to the Ponzi scenario. Even when Ponzi operators pay out, they essentially do so from the investor funds. It could very well be the case for Dadice, that they are spending the investor funds on the other marketing budgets and could be one reason they do not want to show proof of being solvent. |
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erwin45hacked
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May 21, 2015, 10:01:50 AM |
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Asking here since I dont get it, Dadice has closed down their investment feature . Does this still makes them a scammer since I see that their account got a red trust
Basically this is just a pure speculation because there is no proof about this yet. Not trying to defend them but I dont see any reason of marking them with red trust because they have stopped their investment feature
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cbase
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May 21, 2015, 10:14:18 AM |
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Asking here since I dont get it, Dadice has closed down their investment feature . Does this still makes them a scammer since I see that their account got a red trust
Basically this is just a pure speculation because there is no proof about this yet. Not trying to defend them but I dont see any reason of marking them with red trust because they have stopped their investment feature
The red trust is because they refuse to provide proof of funds until the investment option is disabled. Im not sure what will happen next since dadice already closed the investment option |
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NLNico
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May 21, 2015, 10:19:23 AM
Last edit: May 21, 2015, 10:30:50 AM by NLNico |
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It is clear that they do not have the bankroll that they claimed to have. Lying about something so crucial definitely deserves a red big warning. It showed complete intend to scam the investors they would have gotten in the future. They might have ran with the future bankroll (like dice.ninja) or at best they would have gotten a relatively too big share of the profits. Even for players this is very bad news, since they might not be able to pay big payouts - and they might not even have all the balances of the players right now.
True, if they never had an invest option from start, no one would have really cared (although the high 20 coin max profit could be warning for some.)
However they have chosen to have this invest option at the start and by giving bad excuses for not proving their solvency, they have shown that they are not trustworthy. Changing to "no invest option" doesn't change that... in fact, it further more proves they did not have the funds they claimed they have. It seems like the only way out for not being required to prove solvency. Obviously by now it is too late, they have shown their lies about the bankroll already. And I still think actually showing that they have those coins is the only way out.
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mfaspk
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May 21, 2015, 10:25:08 AM |
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Asking here since I dont get it, Dadice has closed down their investment feature . Does this still makes them a scammer since I see that their account got a red trust
Basically this is just a pure speculation because there is no proof about this yet. Not trying to defend them but I dont see any reason of marking them with red trust because they have stopped their investment feature
The red trust is because they refuse to provide proof of funds until the investment option is disabled. Im not sure what will happen next since dadice already closed the investment option I don't know about shorena, but I know for fact that dooglus and nico are genuinely concerned about health of dice industry. Now since investment option is gone, therefore all the bankroll there is private now which renders this whole debate useless. And Da Dice has done it after public criticism (literally written in official announcement) and I know one of the reasons behind it is dooglus. On the other hand, in one of his last posts on main Da Dice thread doog has said: I'm not claiming they are doing anything wrong. I was simply saying that without proof of solvency it *is possible* that they are insolvent. I don't need to prove that they are insolvent, and they don't need to prove that they are solvent. It would just look better for them if they could prove it. It still obviously wouldn't stop them from being able to steal everyone's coins, but it would at least instil extra confidence in potential investors.
so I think trust issue will now be solved too. I'm sure doog will do the right thing. |
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PocketRocketsCasino
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May 21, 2015, 10:38:28 AM |
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Asking here since I dont get it, Dadice has closed down their investment feature . Does this still makes them a scammer since I see that their account got a red trust
Basically this is just a pure speculation because there is no proof about this yet. Not trying to defend them but I dont see any reason of marking them with red trust because they have stopped their investment feature
The red trust is because they refuse to provide proof of funds until the investment option is disabled. Im not sure what will happen next since dadice already closed the investment option I don't know about shorena, but I know for fact that dooglus and nico are genuinely concerned about health of dice industry. Now since investment option is gone, therefore all the bankroll there is private now which renders this whole debate useless. And Da Dice has done it after public criticism (literally written in official announcement) and I know one of the reasons behind it is dooglus. On the other hand, in one of his last posts on main Da Dice thread doog has said: I'm not claiming they are doing anything wrong. I was simply saying that without proof of solvency it *is possible* that they are insolvent. I don't need to prove that they are insolvent, and they don't need to prove that they are solvent. It would just look better for them if they could prove it. It still obviously wouldn't stop them from being able to steal everyone's coins, but it would at least instil extra confidence in potential investors.
so I think trust issue will now be solved too. I'm sure doog will do the right thing. A lot of people are missing the point here. Proof of solvency should still be shown, especially now. If you have a max payout of 20 Bitcoin players will want to know that they can trust the site to payout if they come in and win 3 max bets in a row. Showing you have funds at least lets them see you have the funds to payout on a win. That's the last I will write in any of these threads. Good luck. |
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NLNico
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May 21, 2015, 10:43:54 AM |
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Actually it is very strange they had a fixed max 20 coin profit too. How does that work with investors and kelly selections ? :s The max profit must be based on the invested amount and with the kelly selection the investor is selecting the max loss (= max profit for player) per bet he can have. This is how all dice invest sites work. Now, with more and more investors and different kelly selections, the picture is even more bizarre
Like ours:
Bankroll is currently 924
Actually available 546 .. No it is not. We have a maximum payout of 20 btc currently.
Just think how logical this fixed max payout is  |
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fox19891989
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May 21, 2015, 01:38:35 PM |
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I don't see other sites also have the proof of solvency, but why they criticize dadice, but not other sites? If shows, the scammer can also run with your funds, so it doesn't mean anything.
Dadice has a good reputation before, I don't think they will scam players in the future, and dadice
And many big exchanges including OKcoin also refused to show the proof of solvency or cold storage, but it is still the largest exchange in the world. But how about mtgox? People knew mtgox wallets before mtgox bankrupt, it was still dead, lol.
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Quickseller
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May 21, 2015, 01:45:15 PM |
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I don't see other sites also have the proof of solvency, but why they criticize dadice, but not other sites? If shows, the scammer can also run with your funds, so it doesn't mean anything.
No. Every dice/gambling site that accepts investments is transparent with their cold storage. |
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NLNico
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May 21, 2015, 01:45:45 PM |
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I don't see other sites also have the proof of solvency, but why they criticize dadice, but not other sites? If shows, the scammer can also run with your funds, so it doesn't mean anything.
Dadice has a good reputation before, I don't think they will scam players in the future, and dadice
And many big exchanges including OKcoin also refused to show the proof of solvency or cold storage, but it is still the largest exchange in the world. But how about mtgox? People knew mtgox wallets before mtgox bankrupt, it was still dead, lol.
Here you go... I have also explained before that it is not about withdrawals. MtGox also did withdrawals for a very long time - but they weren't solvent for a long time too.
Even big exchanges (BitStamp, Kraken, BitFinex, OkCoin, etc.) do private audits for solvency these days after that Gox stuff. Obviously dice invest sites normally just have a public addy, but if Stunna can do a private verification - that would definitely prove your current solvency to me.
OKCoin Passes Proof of Solvency Audit > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=752803.0What other wrong excuses you got? We kinda been over all of them already.. |
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cryptworld
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May 21, 2015, 02:18:23 PM |
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Wow, it looks really shady, they say one statement and when showing them they are wrong they come out with other different statement, it smells bad...
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katerniko1
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May 21, 2015, 02:21:58 PM |
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Many are talking as if Da Dice is a scam. Find me a single scam accusation, lol. How are you even comparing? Edit: People are unaware of the facts. There is no withdrawal that did not get honored. Nor are there any complaints regarding loss of funds, or anything related. This is pure speculation. Da Dice hasn't yet provided a Proof of Solvency. But, that doesn't make it a scam... A competitor just made random hits, and he got lucky at one.. i totaly agree with you. i havent see anyone complaining about (lost funds,not recieved withdrawal or anything like that) so that what you are saying is just -.-. if they dont want to make their bankroll public that is ok. When AND if someone lost funds or didnt get withdrawal then you can start blaming them of scamming. untill then i think its best to lock this thread and stop this lame talk. regards. -katerniko1 |
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