Trust list reorganizing

[TheGr33k]

...In the few days that I was off of BadBear's list (and before being added to your list), at least one person was scammed because they did not see a negative I left...

Yes, re-add Quickseller to the default trust list pleez. He's indespensible to this forums security. Also very smart.

'
LOL says one of his alts.

LOL And he deleted the post Am sure whomsoever posted this " Yes, re-add Quickseller to the default trust list pleez. He's indespensible to this forums security. Also very smart. " is a kid

"Also very smart" xD

[theymos]

It's not useful AFAICT to create a separate user like that. Anyone listed there and not in your main account won't be in the trust networks of people using the default settings. It'll have different effects for people who have non-default settings, but these effects will vary in ways that you can't predict/affect, and not usually do anything useful.

I recommend just listing everyone who:
- Gives only accurate ratings.
- Has a mostly good trust list. (You can/should fix any problems in their trust list using exclusions in your trust list.)
- Is unlikely to suddenly change the above two things for the worse, especially not maliciously or in cooperation with other users. This is the only point that requires some trust, and it doesn't require that much since you can quickly remove someone from your trust list if necessary. Listing someone in your trust list does not require that you have tons of trust in them.

Removing people from your trust list because they're already in DefaultTrust is not a good idea because some people might trust you and not DefaultTrust.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but as I think it works, Depth 2 ratings hit a little softer than Depth 1.

That's not how it works.

The trust system is composed of two independent parts. The first part is the trust network calculation. From your trust list and depth, it generates a list of users (your trust network) whose ratings you will trust. The second part is trust score/ratings. All ratings from people in the trust network calculated in the first part are weighted equally.

Very few people seem to understand the trust system... Maybe it'd help if I just posted the code...

Code:

function trust_sources($user, $max_depth) {
        // arrays of user IDs
        $sources = array(); // your trust network
        $untrusted = array(); // ~excluded users, including exclusions via trust network
        $last = array($user); // users added in the previous depth round
        
        for($i=0; $i<=$max_depth; $i++) {
                if(count($last) == 0)
                        break;

                // get the trust lists of users added in the last round
                $last = implode(',', $last);
                $q = db_query("select ID_MEMBER_TRUSTED, type
                        from trust where ID_MEMBER in ($last)");

                // take exclusions into account to determine whether
                // to include or exclude each person considered
                $votes = array();
                while(list($u, $type) = mysql_fetch_array($q)) {
                        if(!isset($votes[$u]))
                                $votes[$u] = 0;
                        if($type == 1) // exclude
                                $votes[$u] -= 1;
                        else // trust
                                $votes[$u] += 1;
                }
                $last = array();
                foreach($votes as $u=>$v) {
                        if($v >= 0 && !isset($untrusted[$u])) // include
                                $sources[] = $last[] = $u;
                        else //exclude this person from future depths
                                $untrusted[$u] = 1;
                }

                //default trust
                if(count($last) == 0 && $i == 0 && empty($votes)) {
                        $default = array(122551);
                        $last += $default;
                        $sources += $default;
                }
        }

        //you always trust yourself
        $sources[] = $user;

        $sources = array_unique($sources, SORT_NUMERIC);

        return $sources;
}

Your trust network is trust_sources(<your user ID>, <your configured max depth>). You see ratings as "trusted" if they're posted by anyone in your trust network. All trusted ratings are considered equally in the trust score algorithm (posted elsewhere), and all untrusted ratings are ignored.

[redsn0w]

@Quickseller, do you remember when I said you this thing :

...
But since he (QS) he is not more in the depth 2 of DefaultTrus list his negative trust is not important anymore (under a point of view of the trust system).

and you replied:

A lot of people still have me in their trust list and even more have me in their trust network. My feedback is far from worthless.

Now you know that I do not have nothing against you but I would like to ask you : Are you worried or scared because you are not more in the default trust depth 2 (one more time)? And if you are still thinking this thing, you will not have any type of problem to say out from the depth 2 od that list or am I wrong?

Thanks @theymos for the fantastic explanation.

[Tomatocage]

in all fairness QuickSeller dersevees to be on the list more than some of the other people listed...

Exactly! How is Graet on the default trust after he stole peoples money, stopped posting, has negative trust and hasnt logged in to bitcointalk for almost a year? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=17548

Thanks for pointing that out. I've adjusted my Trust list accordingly.

[Tomatocage]

I recommend just listing everyone who:
- Gives only accurate ratings.
- Has a mostly good trust list. (You can/should fix any problems in their trust list using exclusions in your trust list.)
- Is unlikely to suddenly change the above two things for the worse, especially not maliciously or in cooperation with other users. This is the only point that requires some trust, and it doesn't require that much since you can quickly remove someone from your trust list if necessary. Listing someone in your trust list does not require that you have tons of trust in them.

Removing people from your trust list because they're already in DefaultTrust is not a good idea because some people might trust you and not DefaultTrust.

I'll just go by this criteria, since it puts things in a much clearer perspective, at least for me. ¡Gracias, El Ymos!

[Quickseller]

@Quickseller, do you remember when I said you this thing :

...
But since he (QS) he is not more in the depth 2 of DefaultTrus list his negative trust is not important anymore (under a point of view of the trust system).

and you replied:

A lot of people still have me in their trust list and even more have me in their trust network. My feedback is far from worthless.

Now you know that I do not have nothing against you but I would like to ask you : Are you worried or scared because you are not more in the default trust depth 2 (one more time)? And if you are still thinking this thing, you will not have any type of problem to say out from the depth 2 od that list or am I wrong?

I never said that you have any problem with me.

I think it is annoying to have so many scammers slandering my name (or my handle since my RL name is not public). More then 95% of people critical of me are scammers, most of which were caught scamming by me. So the ultimate reason want me off the default trust network is because they don't want me stopping their scam prior to them being able to steal money, I am effectively stealing from them.

It is also frustrating to see people get scammed despite me calling them out. IDR what the name of it was however BadBear had called out one of TheGambler's ponzis as being an alt of dmugetsu (one of TheGambler's alts), he simply denied it and then when I called it out as being one of TheGambler's scams, James Volpe was complaining about me within 24 hours. - As I mentioned previously at least one person was already scammed because they were unable to see my rating.

[tspacepilot]

Take example of tspacepilot, you necro post with your alt account about his 3 year old post. And then mark negative trust from QS account. It is really misuse of DT. Because That time even so many knew about that. And after that there were no complaint about in tspacepilot account but you did it for some revenge. I don't know what was the motive that you searched 3 year old post to marking red.

That guy is a scammer. Why don't you explain how he is not a scammer, and explain what exactly I was trying to get revenge for?

Gonna have to step in here to answer the slander.

Calling me a scammer now doesn't make it any more true than when you tried it about a month ago.  If you had been able to explain how I was a scammer, then perhaps you wouldn't have this issue of continually getting removed from people's trust lists when they see how volitile you are.  As to what you were taking revenge for, it was pretty clear: you didn't appreciate it when I called you out for being a hothead and for calling people idiots.  I said straight up to you: dude that is a shitty way to be and you are acting like an asshole.  Then, just as deadly said, you went about trolling me with an alt and necro bumping old lies and pretending that they have some validity.  But you overestimated your own importance and people quickly saw through what you were trying to do and you got yourself removed.  All of that is on the record and people can look it up, you can see the threads where he calls people idiots and I say that he shouldn't be doing that.  You can see the threads where he trolls me for 24 hours, threatening to have me kicked off my ad-campaign.  It's all out there for people who (for god knows what reason) may care to look it up.  You can shout that I'm a scammer just like you can shout that nhndc is an extortionist, that doesn't make it true.

Tomatocage has given you another chance.  Looks like you nearly completely blew that one with the ndnhc thing.  However, maybe you'll turn your act around soon mor maybe you'll run out of chances.  Time will tell.

[snarlpill]

said he died in a car crash

Damn, this is somewhat off topic here but is that true about haploid23 passing away? If so I am very saddened to hear that. We had many conversations over the past year or so and I could genuinely tell that he was a pretty good guy. R.I.P. to haploid23 if true.

[TECSHARE]

said he died in a car crash

Damn, this is somewhat off topic here but is that true about haploid23 passing away? If so I am very saddened to hear that. We had many conversations over the past year or so and I could genuinely tell that he was a pretty good guy. R.I.P. to haploid23 if true.

Lame. I enjoyed his additions to the debates int he Politics & Society section. I guess that is the curse that us old timers will have to bear as the years pass :/

[Bicknellski]

CanaryInTheMine 1872: -0 / +193

Why not have Canary top tier?

Seems to fit Theymos criteria more than

Dogie or Quickseller or Diamond that is for certain.

[Muhammed Zakir]

CanaryInTheMine 1872: -0 / +193

Why not have Canary top tier?

Seems to fit Theymos criteria more than

Dogie or Quickseller or Diamond that is for certain.

Check various threads in Meta and you will know why CITM is not in default trust list. FYI, CITM was in default trust depth 1 earlier.

[tidus1097]

said he died in a car crash

Damn, this is somewhat off topic here but is that true about haploid23 passing away? If so I am very saddened to hear that. We had many conversations over the past year or so and I could genuinely tell that he was a pretty good guy. R.I.P. to haploid23 if true.

Lame. I enjoyed his additions to the debates int he Politics & Society section. I guess that is the curse that us old timers will have to bear as the years pass :/

I wish someone with some credibility could confirm or deny this. Hate to see one of our own gone.

[dogie]

CanaryInTheMine 1872: -0 / +193

Why not have Canary top tier?

Seems to fit Theymos criteria more than

Dogie or Quickseller or Diamond that is for certain.

Check various threads in Meta and you will know why CITM is not in default trust list. FYI, CITM was in default trust depth 1 earlier.

And these graphs of when he was in DefaultTrust.

The same as if Canary was still in DefaultTrust with his old list. You can see the problem his list caused.
Forced Atlas 2015.05.16 + CanaryInTheMine
 

Yifan Hu 2015.05.16 + CanaryInTheMine                                                Layered 2015.05.16 + CanaryInTheMine                                      
   

[Quickseller]

said he died in a car crash

Damn, this is somewhat off topic here but is that true about haploid23 passing away? If so I am very saddened to hear that. We had many conversations over the past year or so and I could genuinely tell that he was a pretty good guy. R.I.P. to haploid23 if true.

I don't think it is true. There is someone still very active on here that I believe to be one of is alts, although it is not confirmed. I also think I have a pretty good idea why he abandoned that account, although this is also speculation.

Even if I am wrong about the above, I believe that KingOfSports to be living on the east coast, more specifically in the Baltimore metropolitan area. On the other hand, I believe that haploid23 lives in California so the chances of them knowing each other personally are somewhat low. KoS is just a scum that likes to troll.

[tspacepilot]

CanaryInTheMine 1872: -0 / +193

Why not have Canary top tier?

Seems to fit Theymos criteria more than

Dogie or Quickseller or Diamond that is for certain.

From what I read, he was removed because people felt that he was adding people to his trust list based on feedback from his business or something like that.  People who bought from him got on his trust list and then others began to think this was too inflated for default trust.  Others have said that many other on default trust do the same thing.  I don't really have an opinion on it.

Also, FWIW, QS is no longer on default trust.

[DiamondCardz]

Code:

==== Tier 2 ====
DiamondCardz 		(new add, probationary)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8c5wmeOL9o

I really hope that I'm understanding how the Trust system currently works and this isn't going to end up making me look dumb (well, at least not any more so than usual).

Seems like a perfectly fine use of it for depth 1's to limit who they add to depth 2 and use depth 3 as a testing ground. That's my 6th adding to DefaultTrust depth 3, actually. I guess you could argue that yeah, that means your decisions won't matter for anyone on default settings, but I guess that would be good if you are actually having someone on probation to keep them on depth 3 and not depth 2.

(Already on depth 2 as a note so don't worry about moving me up to Tier 1 too much)

Edit: Out of curiosity, why is BCB Tier 1? Didn't he stick tracking pixels in posts, and hasn't he vanished from Bitcointalk now?

[Neotox]

Its good to keep the trust list updated and keep adding/removing users who deserve it
users on default trust list should be active and helping to spot scammers, and ofcourse not selling trust indirectly with their services
i have seen many guys who started their service as soon as they were added to default trust list.

thumbs up tomatocage 

[OgNasty]

Code:

==== Trimmed ====
OgNasty			(already in DefaultTrust)

I know it doesn't make a difference, but it still hurts getting axed from a list.  I like to be included.