Going after Trendon Shavers, Pirateat40, BTCST

[thebaron]

Sadly at this time we have reason to believe fraud occurred.

If Pirate provides evidence that he was actually operating a passthrough to Zeek, will you still hold him responsible for returning your coins?

...

[sadpandatech]

Welp, if this was pirate's address the last of the coins left to go get laundered a few hours ago... 158000BTC...
http://blockchain.info/address/1DkyBEKt5S2GDtv7aQw6rQepAvnsRyHoYM

a LOT of wasted hours has convinced me within 95% likeliness that it's not his..

Sadly at this time we have reason to believe fraud occurred.

If Pirate provides evidence that he was actually operating a passthrough to Zeek, will you still hold him responsible for returning your coins?

...

He would be held responsible for fraud in such case for not disclosing that he was doing such with the coins. Not that he disclosed much of anything. But he stated very plainly what he wanted everyone to believe he was doing with the coins. Why anyone believed him is their problem to explane to a judge. ;p But would not much change the actions he was allegedly doing that he provided.

[JoelKatz]

He wuold be held responsible for fraud in such case for not disclosing that he was doing such with the coins.

Ahh, so if you don't disclose what you're doing with the coins, that's fraud? So mybitcointrade is a fraud, right? They don't disclose how they "invest" your coins.

Not that he disclosed much of anything. But he stated very plainly what he wanted everyone to believe he was doing with the coins. Why anyone believed him is their problem to explane to a judge. ;p But would not much change the actions he was allegedly doing that he provided.

Zeek was always vague about what they did. I don't think what Pirate claimed he did is inconsistent with what he might have believed he was doing in passing through to Zeek.

In other words, it may be that all Pirate is guilty of is the same idiocy as the folks who invested with him. Just as they speculated about the ways he might be able to make a profit and thought their speculations were reasonable, he might have thought the same about Zeek.

[sadpandatech]

I haven't followed the whole thing close enough to understand the difference but it is possible that there were ppt operators who were more innocent and those who were less innocent. At least add a scammer tag to those who clearly mislead people. That would be a start.

Just curious..  what are the TX #s showing the deposits into Pirateat40s account by these PPT operators?  

The obvious assumption without such proof is that no deposits were made.    

I also haven't seen many personal TX #s into the BullShitTrust, just empty threats by pseudonyms who could be pirate himself.    

Yes, the sock puppet to TX# ratio is way to high at this I Told You So happy hour.    

+10

PPT operators not wanting to be called scammers, open your books and prove what you did.

It would be very helpful on all accounts to see where this money was moving after it was allegedly deposited with Pirate.

He wuold be held responsible for fraud in such case for not disclosing that he was doing such with the coins.

Ahh, so if you don't disclose what you're doing with the coins, that's fraud? So mybitcointrade is a fraud, right? They don't disclose how they "invest" your coins.

Not that he disclosed much of anything. But he stated very plainly what he wanted everyone to believe he was doing with the coins. Why anyone believed him is their problem to explane to a judge. ;p But would not much change the actions he was allegedly doing that he provided.

Zeek was always vague about what they did. I don't think what Pirate claimed he did is inconsistent with what he might have believed he was doing in passing through to Zeek.

In other words, it may be that all Pirate is guilty of is the same idiocy as the folks who invested with him. Just as they speculated about the ways he might be able to make a profit and thought their speculations were reasonable, he might have thought the same about Zeek.

aye, that makes about as much sense as what I posted. My point was more that Trendon made direct statements about what he was doing. And none of them said he was 'investing' the coins elsewhere. I am suggesting that he was not at all doing what he even vaguely stated he was.

[sadpandatech]

There are a large number of people with large BTCST accounts who will go after pirate even if I do not.

Why are those people being so quiet? Aside from keeping any actual legal actions quiet, which would be understandable. It would be nice for some fo them, who i know damn well have done nothign yet to alteast act like they are here for more than just their own pockets....

[memvola]

Regarding PPT's: I think either they take action on behalf of their depositors, or the depositors should take action against them. Without the PPT involvement the victims can't even prove they have made any investment to BTCS&T, there is no direct connection. Goat is on the right track here, but he needs more PPT operators transparently on board. Not likely of course.

Regarding legal claims: If the fraud can be proven (yes even with monopoly money), the motivation should be to make the victims whole again. What the nature of Bitcoin is doesn't really matter at that point. I have very low trust in law but I would very much like to see the outcome.

[Herodes]

Regarding PPT's: I think either they take action on behalf of their depositors, or the depositors should take action against them. Without the PPT involvement the victims can't even prove they have made any investment to BTCS&T, there is no direct connection. Goat is on the right track here, but he needs more PPT operators transparently on board. Not likely of course.

Regarding legal claims: If the fraud can be proven (yes even with monopoly money), the motivation should be to make the victims whole again. What the nature of Bitcoin is doesn't really matter at that point. I have very low trust in law but I would very much like to see the outcome.

Yes, me too would like to see Pirate put to justice.

But let's be relistically for a second.

If law enforcement is involved we have the following hurdles:

1. We would need competent investigators that actually knew about bitcoin, and knew their way around everything IT.
2. We would need cooperation across country boundaries, even on various continents.
3. As long as the one filling the case is just an individual, I doubt that law enforcement will care much.
4. It could drag out for years..

The ones I've seen sucessfully track international Internet crime are big law agencies, or big law agencies assisted by powerful private cooperations.

I think a private investigation would yield better results than an official investigation, then when the criminal (Trendon Shavers or whatever his real name is) is found, he could be handed over to the real police, with all evidence readily available, or the organization behind the private investigation could select to to aim for alternative methods..

We don't hear so much about it, but there are private companies helping individuals in achiving 'justice' outside the established system. I suspect these organizations may be just a effective, if not even more so than most national law agencies.

[JoelKatz]

Regarding PPT's: I think either they take action on behalf of their depositors, or the depositors should take action against them. Without the PPT involvement the victims can't even prove they have made any investment to BTCS&T, there is no direct connection. Goat is on the right track here, but he needs more PPT operators transparently on board. Not likely of course.

The problem with PPT investors going after the PPT operators is that the PPT operators did what they said they would do. Given that they made no provision for deducting collection expenses and the fact that such efforts are unlikely to succeed, it's hard to argue that they're obligated to pursue Pirate for the benefit of their investors at their own expense. As for going after them for running a Ponzi scheme, it's not like they had information much different from what their investors had or that their actions were significantly different from the actions of their investors. The PPT investor's hands are no cleaner than the PPT operator's.

PPT investors might be able to go after Pirate. But even that is looking unlikely. (Though the Madoff precedent, where passthrough investors were ruled unable to collect against Madoff, was specific to SIPC claims for funds involved in SIPA liquidiations, so probably doesn't apply here.)

[conspirosphere.tk]

there are private companies helping individuals in achiving 'justice' outside the established system. I suspect these organizations may be just a effective, if not even more so than most national law agencies.

In fact I suspect that the FBI and other 3 letters agencies would like very much to look closely into this affair, so much that I am quite worried and uncertain about what could come out of their involvement (as a paranoid-anarcoid I expect little of good).

But if in the end you have to refer to them to move things forward and have some chance, then go for it.

[Herodes]

In fact I suspect that the FBI and other 3 letters agencies would like very much to look closely into this affair, so much that I am quite worried and uncertain about what could come out of their involvement (as a paranoid-anarcoid I expect little of good).

The 3-letter agencies are already well aware of Bitcoin. They certainly have the resources necessary to turn every stone in a case like this, but why should they ? Isn't there hundreds of cases that are more important than this case?

Pirate seemed to be a very vocal person, and he obviously liked to show off, which leads me to believe he may not be as a smart as he thinks he is, and thus he may have left traces behind that can be used to track him down.

[BR0KK]

Is this a man hunt (or is it going to be one) ?

You should think of not using anything illegal to get him ..... Even saing that in public might get u in trouble ...


And why cant the PPT operators try to get their money back? As i understand it, Goat and the others are trying to get the BTC; or at least legal justice; for their costumers?

if they wanted to run with it they wouldn't be that active on the forum?!


If i were an customer of PPTs (i actually hat a share of TYGRR.BOT, but i sold it after a week or two, because i wasn't sure what it "really was!) i would rather trust them, then Pirate with his "give me your address and amount owed" proposal.....?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Goat you have my full support and i will donate BTC.

Whether people supported pirate or screamed from the rooftops that he was a ponzi, everyone should support this.
If scammers start to face real life justice we will start to see less and less of them in BTC land.

That can only be a good thing for everyone ( and the price of BTC ).

No. Sending one penny to the conspirators who worked with pirate to rip off $5,000,000 of other people's money is exactly the opposite of what anyone should do.

With all due respect to Goat, I too have an issue of accepting BTC donations to hunt down Pirate. Are we not all on the same boat (triple entendre?)?

~Bruno~

[Herodes]

And why cant the PPT operators try to get their money back? As i understand it, Goat and the others are trying to get the BTC; or at least legal justice; for their costumers?

Of course they could try, I'm just looking realistically at the situation, and the chances are slim. I would love to see Pirate behind bars, and Goat and all other PPT operators have everything back.

But I think there's a very important lesson to be learned, to do Due Diligence before you start working with another company. I can see Goat made a really stupid mistake, and being far too trusty in the Pirate show.

I'm not sure why Goat should be selling his private property to reinstate the investors though. Apart from paying back any fees he earned from the operation to his customers (which would be a gentleman's move), Pirate is to blame.

If Goat is to be blamed of anything, it's stupidity.

[JoelKatz]

If Goat is to be blamed of anything, it's stupidity.

The problem is that it's hard to forgive stupidity when it's stupidity in the way you handle other people's money. If Pirate was operating a passthrough to Zeek, would you make the same argument for him?

No, because he woulda have been lieing. People knew exactly where Goat was sending their money to.

Pirate never claimed he wasn't running a passthrough to Zeek until after payments stopped. And operating a Zeek passthrough is perfectly consistent with the vague claims he made about his business model. Pirate made it very clear that he wasn't revealing the details of what he was really doing.

[memvola]

I'm not one of the buffoons setting their hair on fire and demanding the Bitcoin Police immediately utilize every FBI/SEC/CIA/NSA/DMV/IMF/BIS/KGB law enforcement resource available, just for the sake of reversing my voluntarily made irreversible transactions.

At the very least, I'd like to see if someone will really do something about this, and what the response from law enforcement will be if any. It's big enough in scale to pursue and may at least serve as a precedent.

[Frankie]

Goat you have my full support and i will donate BTC.

Whether people supported pirate or screamed from the rooftops that he was a ponzi, everyone should support this.
If scammers start to face real life justice we will start to see less and less of them in BTC land.

That can only be a good thing for everyone ( and the price of BTC ).

No. Sending one penny to the conspirators who worked with pirate to rip off $5,000,000 of other people's money is exactly the opposite of what anyone should do.

Just so.

Goat is doing his damnest to whitewash his history as a complicit I-know-Pirate's-business-model shill by appointing himself public prosecutor. Good luck with that, Goat, but it's a collosal mistake for anyone else to subsidize one of the leading co-conspirators to this scam.

[smoothie]

It is good to hear that people are making "arrangments" to go after Pirate. But all in all. I'm not sure much will come from it.

By all means put Good money into chasing after  bad money. Perhaps you might turn a profit in all of this. Well some PPTs obviously have (i think).

Bitcoin has moved into the strong hands. Get over it. Stop trusting scumbags on the internet to hold your damn bitcoins.

[Haplo]

I support this.

People trusted pirate because:

A: He had perfect OTC rating and community respect.

B: He had (up till now) been reliable and did what he said he would do.

C: There was evidence that he was doing some sort of legitimate business (would any of the ponzi-thumping morons like to explain what's up with GPUMax, since you obviously know everything about pirate?)

D: They accepted that whatever he was doing was probably risky, but assumed that he would do right should things go tits up.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect to get any money back, but I think it would be sending the wrong message to let some asshole walk away with millions of dollars like it's nothing. Of course, given how long it took zhoutong to start processing claims for bitcoinica (people were saying he walked with the money, too) it's possible that pirate is currently shitting himself trying to work things out in a fair and manageable way. If that's the case, he'd better speak up before the FBI shows up at his door.

[hashman]

Their 'books' are no good as they can be easily forged.

Oh really?  Forge me some TXs then.  Can you make it look like Satoshi sent me 1000 coins in 2009 please? 
 

[hgmichna]

Goat is doing his damnest to whitewash his history as a complicit I-know-Pirate's-business-model shill by appointing himself public prosecutor. Good luck with that, Goat, but it's a collosal mistake for anyone else to subsidize one of the leading co-conspirators to this scam.

Finally somebody says it. If you hadn't, I probably would have.

After reading this thread, I am now convinced that all of them will get away, the pirate and all of his cronies, his feeder fund (PPT) operators.

If I were a feeder fund operator, what would I do? If I were not eloquent, I would probably disappear. If I were a psychopathic manipulator, as a scammer usually is, I would state that I am pursuing the pirate on behalf of my investors and would try extremely hard to create the impression that I am a victim, rather than the perpetrator I really am. Never forget that scammers are usually psychopathic controllers who masterfully make you believe what they want you to believe.

You don't believe this? Then you are beyond help. You think that somebody who is able to establish and run a feeder fund for a huge scam operation is unable to recognize the nature of the whole business, in spite of ample and very elaborate explanations and warnings? There are very naive "investors", but there are no very naive feeder fund operators.

I would rather assume that the clique is still communicating and they are covering each other's asses.

So what would I do if I were pirateat40? I would leisurely launder my last bitcoins and disappear into a faraway country for a long and nice holiday. From there I would watch how a bunch of clueless "investors" is being led around by the nose by my comrades, perhaps just by the ones on that notorious photo showing the elusive club of people hand-picked by me, the pirate. If, after a few years, I would consider all clear, I might even return and, if it's still all clear after another year, start the next scam. With all the experience I would have gathered, that would be very smooth sailing.

And a word directly to Goat and any other feeder fund operator who now wants to look like Jesus, the savior. If you want to disprove what I think and write, let some trusted person here select an auditor for you, open your books to that auditor, and show what you have done.

But actually I am now very pessimistic and may even stop reading these hopeless threads. My unhappy prediction is that the pirate will go free.