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Author Topic: Going after Trendon Shavers, Pirateat40, BTCST  (Read 48086 times)
BR0KK
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July 23, 2013, 09:43:09 PM
 #281

Me thinks he gets the same treatment like the Sonny K guy from BF...
 
-> 100$ Fine and a slap on the wrist (Bad boy you .... bad .. Sad)

<-- Technically I'm trolling Cheesy



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July 23, 2013, 10:44:21 PM
 #282

I wonder if he was smart enough not to put all his eggs in one basket. There's other ways to withdraw wealth from BTC besides an exchange platform.
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July 23, 2013, 10:47:50 PM
 #283

Pretty sure in texas they cant take his house. Also this is only the sec and not the fbi.

It depends.  Was funds from the scam used to make house payments.   If so then more than one district attorney has gone the "procedes of a criminal enterprise angle".  More common to deprive drug dealers of physical assets (that they could use for bail) but who knows.
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July 23, 2013, 10:50:10 PM
 #284

Pretty sure in texas they cant take his house. Also this is only the sec and not the fbi.

The sec is trying to get a court order... why not do it first then tell pirate?

Seems like they have a weak case or something. Anyway 150000.... that wont go far even if collected.

yeah, I think it will be hard to get a conviction. Still, I didn't expect the SEC to do anything.

What would be hard about a conviction.  ponzi schemes are completely illegal.  Did he promise investors a return?  Did he pay investors from the deposits of newer investors? That is really all that is needed. Some financial crime can be very tough to prove but something is either a ponzi or not.  

The uncliensed security issue is even easier to prove.  He didn't register with SEC.  They simply needs to find one or more persons willing to testify that Pirate offered them an investment.  Note the word offered.  Proof that funds exchanged hands or securities were sold isn't even a requirement.

BTW though the SEC can't file criminal charges that would be the job of the Justice Dept.  Of course the SEC can hand over everything they have to them.  If Justice Dept doesn't move it probably has more to do with the small scale then any inability to secure a conviction. 
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July 23, 2013, 10:57:45 PM
 #285

Pretty sure in texas they cant take his house. Also this is only the sec and not the fbi.

The sec is trying to get a court order... why not do it first then tell pirate?

Seems like they have a weak case or something. Anyway 150000.... that wont go far even if collected.

yeah, I think it will be hard to get a conviction. Still, I didn't expect the SEC to do anything.

What would be hard about a conviction.  ponzi schemes are completely illegal.  Did he promise investors a return?  Did he pay investors from the deposits of newer investors?

That is really all that is needed. Some financial crime can be very tough to prove but something is either a ponzi or not. 

BTW though the SEC can't file criminal charges that would be the job of the Justice Dept.  Of course the SEC can hand over everything they have to them.

If investments were made in US Dollars it would be far easier to prove he actually received the money, the pseudo anonymity of Bitcoin makes this complicated. Further the legal status of Bitcoin is far from certain. If I make a Ponzi in Eve Online/Wow will the SEC (or the justice department) prosecute me as well?

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July 23, 2013, 11:03:57 PM
 #286

Pretty sure in texas they cant take his house. Also this is only the sec and not the fbi.

The sec is trying to get a court order... why not do it first then tell pirate?

Seems like they have a weak case or something. Anyway 150000.... that wont go far even if collected.

yeah, I think it will be hard to get a conviction. Still, I didn't expect the SEC to do anything.

What would be hard about a conviction.  ponzi schemes are completely illegal.  Did he promise investors a return?  Did he pay investors from the deposits of newer investors?

That is really all that is needed. Some financial crime can be very tough to prove but something is either a ponzi or not. 

BTW though the SEC can't file criminal charges that would be the job of the Justice Dept.  Of course the SEC can hand over everything they have to them.

If investments were made in US Dollars it would be far easier to prove he actually received the money, the pseudo anonymity of Bitcoin makes this complicated. Further the legal status of Bitcoin is far from certain. If I make a Ponzi in Eve Online/Wow will the SEC (or the justice department) prosecute me as well?

Well per the press release he deposited 150,000 BTC on an exchange and then lost about half in day trading and then transfered ~$150K worth (USD) into a checking account.    If necessary getting the records of the exchange to obtain his deposit addresses wouldn't be very difficult. 

Investors BTC --->  Ponzi ---> His Exchange Account ----> USD in his checking account.
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July 23, 2013, 11:06:55 PM
 #287

Pet rocks are serious business.

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July 23, 2013, 11:08:58 PM
 #288


Investors BTC --->  Ponzi ---> His Exchange Account ----> USD in his checking account.


I would imagine the above connection to be hard to prove.

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July 23, 2013, 11:53:57 PM
 #289


Investors BTC --->  Ponzi ---> His Exchange Account ----> USD in his checking account.


I would imagine the above connection to be hard to prove.

Really?  With the exchange account in his name?  To withdraw $150K would require full KYC and docs.
To seize assets you require a warrant and that would require proving at least to a judge that there is sufficient cause.

Now if he had kept it all as BTC and sent them to a variety of encrypted and brainwallets that would be a lot harder.  Then again at least according to the press release Pirate was an idiot. I mean he lost the lion's share of what he stole.
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July 24, 2013, 12:00:22 AM
 #290


Investors BTC --->  Ponzi ---> His Exchange Account ----> USD in his checking account.


I would imagine the above connection to be hard to prove.

Really?  With the exchange account in his name?  To withdraw $150K would require full KYC and docs.

this.

or pirate would have to claim he got the btc some other way and it was his. like he mined it all back in 2009/2010...   i don't know. seems messy.


Guys the account is in his name sure. Good luck proving the connection with the (alleged) Ponzi though Bitcoins are Bitcoins. In a criminal case Trendon is the accused, he doesn't have to explain how he got the Bitcoins. The prosecution needs to prove how he got it beyond reasonable doubt. IANAL though

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July 24, 2013, 12:02:44 AM
 #291


Investors BTC --->  Ponzi ---> His Exchange Account ----> USD in his checking account.


I would imagine the above connection to be hard to prove.

Really?  With the exchange account in his name?  To withdraw $150K would require full KYC and docs.

this.

or pirate would have to claim he got the btc some other way and it was his. like he mined it all back in 2009/2010...   i don't know. seems messy.


Guys the account is in his name sure. Good luck proving the connection with the (alleged) Ponzi though Bitcoins are Bitcoins. In a criminal case Trendon is the accused, he doesn't have to explain how he got the Bitcoins. The prosecution needs to prove how he got it beyond reasonable doubt. IANAL though

But all they would have to do is link him to his pirateat40 account, the lowest charge they can throw at him is an unregistered security.

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July 24, 2013, 12:04:11 AM
 #292


Investors BTC --->  Ponzi ---> His Exchange Account ----> USD in his checking account.


I would imagine the above connection to be hard to prove.

Really?  With the exchange account in his name?  To withdraw $150K would require full KYC and docs.

this.

or pirate would have to claim he got the btc some other way and it was his. like he mined it all back in 2009/2010...   i don't know. seems messy.


Guys the account is in his name sure. Good luck proving the connection with the (alleged) Ponzi though Bitcoins are Bitcoins. In a criminal case Trendon is the accused, he doesn't have to explain how he got the Bitcoins. The prosecution needs to prove how he got it beyond reasonable doubt. IANAL though

But all they would have to do is link him to his pirateat40 account, the lowest charge they can throw at him is an unregistered security.


They still have to prove he received Bitcoins for the investment. (and even then convince the judge this is a value transfer)

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July 24, 2013, 12:05:41 AM
 #293


Investors BTC --->  Ponzi ---> His Exchange Account ----> USD in his checking account.


I would imagine the above connection to be hard to prove.

Really?  With the exchange account in his name?  To withdraw $150K would require full KYC and docs.

this.

or pirate would have to claim he got the btc some other way and it was his. like he mined it all back in 2009/2010...   i don't know. seems messy.


Guys the account is in his name sure. Good luck proving the connection with the (alleged) Ponzi though Bitcoins are Bitcoins. In a criminal case Trendon is the accused, he doesn't have to explain how he got the Bitcoins. The prosecution needs to prove how he got it beyond reasonable doubt. IANAL though

But all they would have to do is link him to his pirateat40 account, the lowest charge they can throw at him is an unregistered security.


They still have to prove he received Bitcoins for the investment. (and even then convince the judge this is a value transfer)

Exactly, but since Fincen recognizes virtual currencies so that is a value transfer. I am not a lawyer so I am just guessing at this point.

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July 24, 2013, 12:22:19 AM
 #294


Investors BTC --->  Ponzi ---> His Exchange Account ----> USD in his checking account.


I would imagine the above connection to be hard to prove.

Really?  With the exchange account in his name?  To withdraw $150K would require full KYC and docs.

this.

or pirate would have to claim he got the btc some other way and it was his. like he mined it all back in 2009/2010...   i don't know. seems messy.


Guys the account is in his name sure. Good luck proving the connection with the (alleged) Ponzi though Bitcoins are Bitcoins. In a criminal case Trendon is the accused, he doesn't have to explain how he got the Bitcoins. The prosecution needs to prove how he got it beyond reasonable doubt. IANAL though

But all they would have to do is link him to his pirateat40 account, the lowest charge they can throw at him is an unregistered security.


They still have to prove he received Bitcoins for the investment. (and even then convince the judge this is a value transfer)

Nope the mere offering of unlicensed security is a crime.
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July 24, 2013, 12:30:32 AM
 #295


Investors BTC --->  Ponzi ---> His Exchange Account ----> USD in his checking account.


I would imagine the above connection to be hard to prove.

Really?  With the exchange account in his name?  To withdraw $150K would require full KYC and docs.

this.

or pirate would have to claim he got the btc some other way and it was his. like he mined it all back in 2009/2010...   i don't know. seems messy.


Guys the account is in his name sure. Good luck proving the connection with the (alleged) Ponzi though Bitcoins are Bitcoins. In a criminal case Trendon is the accused, he doesn't have to explain how he got the Bitcoins. The prosecution needs to prove how he got it beyond reasonable doubt. IANAL though

But all they would have to do is link him to his pirateat40 account, the lowest charge they can throw at him is an unregistered security.


They still have to prove he received Bitcoins for the investment. (and even then convince the judge this is a value transfer)

Exactly, but since Fincen recognizes virtual currencies so that is a value transfer. I am not a lawyer so I am just guessing at this point.

does it matter at all that this ruling was after he did what he did?

I have no clue, I think it would be retro activate, otherwise, why even go after him?

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July 24, 2013, 12:54:16 AM
 #296

does it matter at all that this ruling was after he did what he did?

No.  This kind of thing annoys me because it creates a defacto run around the prohibition on ex post facto laws.  FINCen guidance is that the regulations ALWAYS applied to Bitcoin even before the creation of Bitcoin it applied to any theoretical virtual currency. The guidance was merely clarification of existing law/regulation.
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July 24, 2013, 01:56:45 AM
 #297


Investors BTC --->  Ponzi ---> His Exchange Account ----> USD in his checking account.


I would imagine the above connection to be hard to prove.

Really?  With the exchange account in his name?  To withdraw $150K would require full KYC and docs.

Have you seen what you can buy on the Silk Road?
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July 24, 2013, 02:03:32 AM
 #298

What confuses me is the value of cashing in all those BTC given at around $1.91 each. Unless they're counting each individual "day trade" in that, and him just cashing out his final balance after losses.
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July 24, 2013, 02:06:29 AM
 #299

Front Page on Australian news

$4.5 million Bitcoin Ponzi scheme - Man charged in alleged Bitcoin scam

http://www.news.com.au/money/money-matters/man-charged-in-alleged-bitcoin-scam/story-e6frfmd9-1226684102340


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July 24, 2013, 02:18:16 AM
 #300

Front Page on Australian news

$4.5 million Bitcoin Ponzi scheme - Man charged in alleged Bitcoin scam

http://www.news.com.au/money/money-matters/man-charged-in-alleged-bitcoin-scam/story-e6frfmd9-1226684102340


On Bloomberg as well.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-23/bitcoin-ponzi-scheme-alleged-by-sec-in-lawsuit-against-texas-man.html
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