If I was a newbie....

[mobodick]

Einstein had faith.  The theory of relativity was pure inspiration.

Deluded human!
Know that all scientists stand on the shoulders of giants.
And Isaac Newton less so then others.

[the_thing]

I agree with mobodick and AbelsFire that Bitcoin needs more real commerce and less propaganda and bullshit. People seem to forget that price and value is not the same thing. If the price skyrockets solely due to media attention and "preaching" it will do no good. Healthy economy must stand on real values.

It worries me that Bitcoin business environment consist almost exclusively of scams, illegal shit (SR has a HUGE market share) and gambling. I'm fine with gambling (although it creates some bad publicity), because it is a very sustainable industry. But illegal things are highly unstable and scams are downright harmful.

I'd like to start something legit, but I have yet to find out what kind of service the community really needs. Preferably nothing illegal.

[mobodick]

I agree with mobodick and AbelsFire that Bitcoin needs more real commerce and less propaganda and bullshit. People seem to forget that price and value is not the same thing. If the price skyrockets solely due to media attention and "preaching" it will do no good. Healthy economy must stand on real values.

It worries me that Bitcoin business environment consist almost exclusively of scams, illegal shit (SR has a HUGE market share) and gambling. I'm fine with gambling (although it creates some bad publicity), because it is a very sustainable industry. But illegal things are highly unstable and scams are downright harmful.

I'd like to start something legit, but I have yet to find out what kind of service the community really needs. Preferably nothing illegal.

And on slowly moving goods...
The slow movement acts as a low passed signal giving a more solid base to the jitters of the fast movement of speculation on value.

[ElectricMucus]

You think that's bad?

The bad thing is: Once you come forward and suggest implementing a solution, (the third-party signed transactions for example) someone comes along screaming:
"Reversible transactions!!111 Do not want! BTC is no credit card!!"

People need to get the head out of their asses and look at theses issues from a systematic perspective instead of sticking to some fundamentalistic agenda. 

[mobodick]

You think that's bad?

The bad thing is: Once you come forward and suggest implementing a solution, (the third-party signed transactions for example) someone comes along screaming:
"Reversible transactions!!111 Do not want! BTC is no credit card!!"

People need to get the head out of their asses and look at theses issues from a systematic perspective instead of sticking to some fundamentalistic agenda.  

word.

[the_thing]

You think that's bad?

The bad thing is: Once you come forward and suggest implementing a solution, (the third-party signed transactions for example) someone comes along screaming:
"Reversible transactions!!111 Do not want! BTC is no credit card!!"

People need to get the head out of their asses and look at theses issues from a systematic perspective instead of sticking to some fundamentalistic agenda. 

I don't understand how third-party signed transactions protect people from scams.
In fact, I can't imagine other effective protection from scams than personal responsibility. People on this forum have been searching for other solutions, mainly moving their responsibility on others. You wanted a free, decentralized, deregulated currency. Well, this requires a great deal of responsibility. If you can't bear it, you best stop using Bitcoin.

And even though I don't to make ad hominem attacks and feed silly nationalism, I have to say that this seems to me as mainly a problem of "westerners". You guys should man up a little bit.

[FLHippy]

If you were a noobie, maybe all this negative stuff would help you not get scammed so easily... wait...

noobs still get scammed.

Early adopters still get scammed.

Dun Dun Dun!!!

Greed is the problem. Greed makes it so easy to rob everyone.

[ElectricMucus]

You think that's bad?

The bad thing is: Once you come forward and suggest implementing a solution, (the third-party signed transactions for example) someone comes along screaming:
"Reversible transactions!!111 Do not want! BTC is no credit card!!"

People need to get the head out of their asses and look at theses issues from a systematic perspective instead of sticking to some fundamentalistic agenda.  

I don't understand how third-party signed transactions protect people from scams.

Certain kinds, for example the kind of exchange "hacking" we've seen on a regular basis couldn't been pulled off if an exchange wouldn't have direct access to the funds.

I'm not saying that this is the silver bullet, and you are right people need to act responsibly. But it's not the only thing that has to be done either.
How I see it people run around spreading the word that bitcoin it "perfect", part out of greed to give it more userbase part out of fear that innovation could harm their speculative investment if it goes wrong. I am not saying we should hard-fork the existing mechanisms but provide improvements where it is necessary. In this example the possibility to do third-party signed transaction wouldn't hurt anybody, everybody who doesn't like the feature or has no use for it can use regular transactions all they want.

Again: The main thing hindering innovation is this irrational fear that any improvement might backfire and make the investment worthless. This has no basis in reality, nobody will think of bitcoin to be worth less because of some added feature... to the contrary it will probably boost it.

You want reversible transactions via the protocol?  

What's wrong with being a Bitcoin supporter because of the current properties of Bitcoin? This is why I'm here. I don't want protection. I want strong money. Bitcoin is strong money. I'd guess that's why Bitcoin has grown as fast as it has. People value it's properties.

The protocol doesn't need changed. If you are so certain you know how to run things, build a layer on top of Bitcoin and make bank catering to all of the people who want protection.

See this is exactly the kind of fear I am talking about.
Again adding to it, you could still do regular transactions all you want. Don't like to get paid by someone else using it? Just don't accept it. (You can tell)

[the_thing]

Certain kinds, for example the kind of exchange "hacking" we've seen on a regular basis couldn't been pulled off if an exchange wouldn't have direct access to the funds.

I'm not saying that this is the silver bullet, and you are right people need to act responsibly. But it's not the only thing that has to be done either.
How I see it people run around spreading the word that bitcoin it "perfect", part out of greed to give it more userbase part out of fear that innovation could harm their speculative investment if it goes wrong. I am not saying we should hard-fork the existing mechanisms but provide improvements where it is necessary. In this example the possibility to do third-party signed transaction wouldn't hurt anybody, everybody who doesn't like the feature or has no use for it can use regular transactions all they want.

Again: The main thing hindering innovation is this irrational fear that any improvement might backfire and make the investment worthless. This has no basis in reality, nobody will think of bitcoin to be worth less because of some added feature... to the contrary it will probably boost it.

If it is voluntary, I have no problem with it. I think majority of bitcoin users feel the same way.

[blueadept]

Multisig-based escrow already allows for reversible transactions. There's no UI for it yet, but the infrastructure exists and requires no or minimal trust. Once popular clients have this ability in their UIs, it will become more popular for all sorts of transactions. When transaction versioning is re-enabled, escrow transactions will be even safer

[ElectricMucus]

Multisig-based escrow already allows for reversible transactions. There's no UI for it yet, but the infrastructure exists and requires no or minimal trust. Once popular clients have this ability in their UIs, it will become more popular for all sorts of transactions. When transaction versioning is re-enabled, escrow transactions will be even safer

thanks

[moni3z]

Type paypal scams into google. There's like a dozen forums solely dedicated to paypal scamming merchants, or various scams people fell for.

Nobody cares about forum drama like pirate ponzi investment or trolls making bets and reneging. That shit goes on everywhere else too. They care about major exchanges getting "hacked" and running away with all their money due to either operator theft or gross security incompetence and no way to get it back. They care about gox freezing their funds like paypal, they care about being paid for something in bitcoins and the value dropping before they can cash out. They care about the security of holding coins on a desktop without being robbed through malware. They care about privacy leaks from the big exchangers to either a random hacker, advertisers or the government.

Trolls + ponzi fallout, not so much

[mobodick]

You think that's bad?

The bad thing is: Once you come forward and suggest implementing a solution, (the third-party signed transactions for example) someone comes along screaming:
"Reversible transactions!!111 Do not want! BTC is no credit card!!"

People need to get the head out of their asses and look at theses issues from a systematic perspective instead of sticking to some fundamentalistic agenda. 

I don't understand how third-party signed transactions protect people from scams.
In fact, I can't imagine other effective protection from scams than personal responsibility. People on this forum have been searching for other solutions, mainly moving their responsibility on others. You wanted a free, decentralized, deregulated currency. Well, this requires a great deal of responsibility. If you can't bear it, you best stop using Bitcoin.

And even though I don't to make ad hominem attacks and feed silly nationalism, I have to say that this seems to me as mainly a problem of "westerners". You guys should man up a little bit.

What, a tool to make transactions safer for everyone is not man enough for you?
You also drive without belts, right?
And walk in the sun witout sunscreen etc?
Do you also live in a tent on you lawn and cook your food over a camp fire?
And why would the community care about a guy in a tent on his lawn anyway?
They don't have to. They've got nice comfy third party signed transactions.

[Severian]

Multisig-based escrow already allows for reversible transactions. There's no UI for it yet, but the infrastructure exists and requires no or minimal trust. Once popular clients have this ability in their UIs, it will become more popular for all sorts of transactions. When transaction versioning is re-enabled, escrow transactions will be even safer

This is great to know. Thanks.

[the_thing]

What, a tool to make transactions safer for everyone is not man enough for you?
You also drive without belts, right?
And walk in the sun witout sunscreen etc?
Do you also live in a tent on you lawn and cook your food over a camp fire?
And why would the community care about a guy in a tent on his lawn anyway?
They don't have to. They've got nice comfy third party signed transactions.

No need to get mad. It was just a friendly advice.

As I said before, volunatary safety features are good.
What I meant by manning up is not crying like a little bitch when you lose money because of your naivety. (case in point : iCEBREAKER took it like a man). Also I meant that people shouldn't rely on third parties to take responsibility for them. You are not children anymore. There is no big goverment to protect your ass.
I don't do any of the things you mentioned.

[Tyrion]

As a new user, it is certainly demoralizaing to see so many threads about scams all the time. Why don't the mods just ban the discussion of these problems from the  forums? Obviously, it is still important for these issues to be dealt with in private, but it is overall bad for bitcoin for this site to be filled with so many topics that talk about negative things all the time.

[blueadept]

This is great to know. Thanks.

Blockchain.info wallet supports multisig escrow transactions now:

https://blockchain.info/wallet/escrow

To be clear, this still won't help if you "invest" your money in a Ponzi scheme. It only helps in actual commerce.

[mobodick]

What, a tool to make transactions safer for everyone is not man enough for you?
You also drive without belts, right?
And walk in the sun witout sunscreen etc?
Do you also live in a tent on you lawn and cook your food over a camp fire?
And why would the community care about a guy in a tent on his lawn anyway?
They don't have to. They've got nice comfy third party signed transactions.

No need to get mad. It was just a friendly advice.

I should have added   ...

As I said before, volunatary safety features are good.
What I meant by manning up is not crying like a little bitch when you lose money because of your naivety. (case in point : iCEBREAKER took it like a man). Also I meant that people shouldn't rely on third parties to take responsibility for them. You are not children anymore. There is no big goverment to protect your ass.
I don't do any of the things you mentioned.

While i completely agree on banning crying like a little bitch when you lose money because of your naivety you'll have to admit that bitcoin can be a bit of a minefield, certainly for newcomers.
Features like built in escrow will be very much appreciated by most of the community i think.

[mobodick]

As a new user, it is certainly demoralizaing to see so many threads about scams all the time. Why don't the mods just ban the discussion of these problems from the  forums? Obviously, it is still important for these issues to be dealt with in private, but it is overall bad for bitcoin for this site to be filled with so many topics that talk about negative things all the time.

Get out. While you still can.

[the_thing]

While i completely agree on banning crying like a little bitch when you lose money because of your naivety you'll have to admit that bitcoin can be a bit of a minefield, certainly for newcomers.
Features like built in escrow will be very much appreciated by most of the community i think.

I support your idea. I do not support any centralized regulations.