If I was a newbie....

[Severian]

The world runs on fiat.

When the FRN loses even more buying power after the next round of debasement, people will start looking for others places to try to keep from sinking. Traditionally, it's been metal. Bitcoin will just add another option. That will add to its mainstream appeal.

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[mobodick]

And so bitcoin is usefull internet money but not per se usefull pay-yer-local-shop money.

Not now, but that could change if it rises in perceived value to the rapidly crapping out fiat.

The world runs on fiat.
If fiat craps out the western world will go off like a row of dominoes.
Society as we know it would collapse and large parts of the world would become dysfunctional.
For one, you will have no electricity to use bitcoin.
The network companies that sell you a network connection will have no electricity to run the network that you need to use bitcoin.
If you do have the electricity to run your client (maybe solar) you would have to rely on ad-hoc networks to distribute the chain.
In such a situation, why the hell would you want to know about transactions happening on the other side of the network?

It would be a huge waste of energy while achieving very little.
Bitcoin would be the least of your worries.

Yeah, see , I thought so. You don't really believe in bitcoin do you? Youre just here to troll

Oh wait, because i point out a fact i'm a troll.  

I dont think bitcoin will function in an extremely dysfunctional world as bitcoin is dependent on both energy and products from a functioning world.
That doesn't make me a troll.
I'd rather know for sure than believe anyway.

[mobodick]

The world runs on fiat.

When the FRN loses even more buying power after the next round of debasement, people will start looking for others places to try to keep from sinking. Traditionally, it's been metal. Bitcoin will just add another option. That will add to its mainstream appeal.

Sure, with the added disadvantage of bitcoin disapearing the moment society goes broken.
Metals don't do that.

[Severian]

Sure, with the added disadvantage of bitcoin disapearing the moment society goes broken.
Metals don't do that.

Which is why I hold metals, bitcoins and other commodities. Diversify, son!

I invest in bitcoin because I'm making a bet that there'll be a functioning network in two or three years. To agree with your earlier point, if there's no TCP/IP packets flying around the globe, we'll have much bigger things to worry about than bitcoin.

[mobodick]

And so bitcoin is usefull internet money but not per se usefull pay-yer-local-shop money.

Not now, but that could change if it rises in perceived value to the rapidly crapping out fiat.

The world runs on fiat.
If fiat craps out the western world will go off like a row of dominoes.
Society as we know it would collapse and large parts of the world would become dysfunctional.
For one, you will have no electricity to use bitcoin.
The network companies that sell you a network connection will have no electricity to run the network that you need to use bitcoin.
If you do have the electricity to run your client (maybe solar) you would have to rely on ad-hoc networks to distribute the chain.
In such a situation, why the hell would you want to know about transactions happening on the other side of the network?

It would be a huge waste of energy while achieving very little.
Bitcoin would be the least of your worries.

Yeah, see , I thought so. You don't really believe in bitcoin do you? Youre just here to troll

Tyler, welcome to bitcoin wonderland. 

[mobodick]

The world runs on fiat.

When the FRN loses even more buying power after the next round of debasement, people will start looking for others places to try to keep from sinking. Traditionally, it's been metal. Bitcoin will just add another option. That will add to its mainstream appeal.

Sure, with the added disadvantage of bitcoin disapearing the moment society goes broken.
Metals don't do that.

Just because there are electricity and internet outages in one country does not mean the entire world is suffering a similar fate. Traveling from a broken country to a non-broken country with your assets in tow may prove quite dangerous. However, my Bitcoins will be waiting patiently on the block chain wherever in the world I may end up.

Guess again.
If the bills are not payed a country goes down.
If that country carries some essential infrastructure or commerce component of the world economy it can affect the rest of the world heavily.
If, for instance, the USA would go down the euro will go down, china will go down, etc, etc, etc.

[Tyrion]

The world runs on fiat.

When the FRN loses even more buying power after the next round of debasement, people will start looking for others places to try to keep from sinking. Traditionally, it's been metal. Bitcoin will just add another option. That will add to its mainstream appeal.

Sure, with the added disadvantage of bitcoin disapearing the moment society goes broken.
Metals don't do that.

Just because there are electricity and internet outages in one country does not mean the entire world is suffering a similar fate. Traveling from a broken country to a non-broken country with your assets in tow may prove quite dangerous. However, my Bitcoins will be waiting patiently on the block chain wherever in the world I may end up.

Guess again.
If the bills are not payed a country goes down.
If that country carries some essential infrastructure or commerce component of the world economy it can affect the rest of the world heavily.
If, for instance, the USA would go down the euro will go down, china will go down, etc, etc, etc.

It would be more likely that the destruction of the governments would allow anarchocapitalist communities to flourish. there would be a period of instability, but it seems to me that theres enough nowhow for people to start generating their own electricity again and networking their computers relatively quickly, and having seen how vulnerable fiat "wealth" is to inflationary manipulation, people would be ready to turn to a truly stable deflationary currency.

[mobodick]

The world runs on fiat.

When the FRN loses even more buying power after the next round of debasement, people will start looking for others places to try to keep from sinking. Traditionally, it's been metal. Bitcoin will just add another option. That will add to its mainstream appeal.

Sure, with the added disadvantage of bitcoin disapearing the moment society goes broken.
Metals don't do that.

Just because there are electricity and internet outages in one country does not mean the entire world is suffering a similar fate. Traveling from a broken country to a non-broken country with your assets in tow may prove quite dangerous. However, my Bitcoins will be waiting patiently on the block chain wherever in the world I may end up.

Guess again.
If the bills are not payed a country goes down.
If that country carries some essential infrastructure or commerce component of the world economy it can affect the rest of the world heavily.
If, for instance, the USA would go down the euro will go down, china will go down, etc, etc, etc.

It would be more likely that the destruction of the governments would allow anarchocapitalist communities to flourish. there would be a period of instability, but it seems to me that theres enough nowhow for people to start generating their own electricity again and networking their computers relatively quickly, and having seen how vulnerable fiat "wealth" is to inflationary manipulation, people would be ready to turn to a truly stable deflationary currency.

LOL ok, how will the people of new york make their own electricity and enough of it to run the computers that are needed for bitcoin? Or even better, how will they do it before starving?
Where will they grow their food?
Who will grow their food and for what service in return?
The problem is that a city like new york cannot survive without sitting firmly in the current economy.
If the current economy collapses and goes away they are mostly screwed. I mean, people are going to die, people are going to starve, people will be mostly out of work, people are going to raid etc etc etc.
That's the kind of 'instability' we're talking about.
After such an event it is questionable wether something like a pc, or even bitcoin, will meant the same thing it means now.
But is suspect we would reboot the current system long before it comes to this.

[Tyrion]

The world runs on fiat.

When the FRN loses even more buying power after the next round of debasement, people will start looking for others places to try to keep from sinking. Traditionally, it's been metal. Bitcoin will just add another option. That will add to its mainstream appeal.

Sure, with the added disadvantage of bitcoin disapearing the moment society goes broken.
Metals don't do that.

Just because there are electricity and internet outages in one country does not mean the entire world is suffering a similar fate. Traveling from a broken country to a non-broken country with your assets in tow may prove quite dangerous. However, my Bitcoins will be waiting patiently on the block chain wherever in the world I may end up.

Guess again.
If the bills are not payed a country goes down.
If that country carries some essential infrastructure or commerce component of the world economy it can affect the rest of the world heavily.
If, for instance, the USA would go down the euro will go down, china will go down, etc, etc, etc.

It would be more likely that the destruction of the governments would allow anarchocapitalist communities to flourish. there would be a period of instability, but it seems to me that theres enough nowhow for people to start generating their own electricity again and networking their computers relatively quickly, and having seen how vulnerable fiat "wealth" is to inflationary manipulation, people would be ready to turn to a truly stable deflationary currency.

LOL ok, how will the people of new york make their own electricity and enough of it to run the computers that are needed for bitcoin? Or even better, how will they do it before starving?
Where will they grow their food?
Who will grow their food and for what service in return?
The problem is that a city like new york cannot survive without sitting firmly in the current economy.
If the current economy collapses and goes away they are mostly screwed. I mean, people are going to die, people are going to starve, people will be mostly out of work, people are going to raid etc etc etc.
That's the kind of 'instability' we're talking about.
After such an event it is questionable wether something like a pc, or even bitcoin, will meant the same thing it means now.
But is suspect we would reboot the current system long before it comes to this.

Simple: there would be considerable demand for a way to survive and succeed in this environment, the smart and industrious would find a way to meet that demand. Without a parasitic government actively working against them, I bet you would be surprised how much driven, intelligent individuals would be able to achieve

[mobodick]

The world runs on fiat.

When the FRN loses even more buying power after the next round of debasement, people will start looking for others places to try to keep from sinking. Traditionally, it's been metal. Bitcoin will just add another option. That will add to its mainstream appeal.

Sure, with the added disadvantage of bitcoin disapearing the moment society goes broken.
Metals don't do that.

Just because there are electricity and internet outages in one country does not mean the entire world is suffering a similar fate. Traveling from a broken country to a non-broken country with your assets in tow may prove quite dangerous. However, my Bitcoins will be waiting patiently on the block chain wherever in the world I may end up.

Guess again.
If the bills are not payed a country goes down.
If that country carries some essential infrastructure or commerce component of the world economy it can affect the rest of the world heavily.
If, for instance, the USA would go down the euro will go down, china will go down, etc, etc, etc.

It would be more likely that the destruction of the governments would allow anarchocapitalist communities to flourish. there would be a period of instability, but it seems to me that theres enough nowhow for people to start generating their own electricity again and networking their computers relatively quickly, and having seen how vulnerable fiat "wealth" is to inflationary manipulation, people would be ready to turn to a truly stable deflationary currency.

LOL ok, how will the people of new york make their own electricity and enough of it to run the computers that are needed for bitcoin? Or even better, how will they do it before starving?
Where will they grow their food?
Who will grow their food and for what service in return?
The problem is that a city like new york cannot survive without sitting firmly in the current economy.
If the current economy collapses and goes away they are mostly screwed. I mean, people are going to die, people are going to starve, people will be mostly out of work, people are going to raid etc etc etc.
That's the kind of 'instability' we're talking about.
After such an event it is questionable wether something like a pc, or even bitcoin, will meant the same thing it means now.
But is suspect we would reboot the current system long before it comes to this.

Simple: there would be considerable demand for a way to survive and succeed in this environment, the smart and industrious would find a way to meet that demand. Without a parasitic government actively working against them, I bet you would be surprised how much driven, intelligent individuals would be able to achieve

Yeah, there would be a sudden opportunity for guns and knives.
In reality, no single person, not even an smart industrious one, can do the job of organising the enormous supply chain that will keep them fed. These things hinge on international treaties and supply chains.
There is no way for an industrious person or group to step up and replace it. It is a fantasy.

Anyway, i'm getting tired of explaining this stuff.
Live your fantasy, you're completely right.
Some smart people will come to the rescue, you better believe it...

[commonancestor]

I think the debate has gotten bit off-topic with the apocalyptic vision of world without governments Well, ok, maybe some newbies are concerned with that too but I think it is not the main decisive factor here. As it was initially suggested, what a newbie often sees here is a mix of scandals (hacked exchanges, scammed investors, ...), mindless talking (trolling, ...), strange folks (get rich quick, ...), and as such may decide to stay away. So what could be done to improve this?

Bitcoin should stick to what it's good at - providing secure and efficient currency through cryptography and distributed networking.
That is fast, cheap, irreversible payments, light-weight wallets which can be used in your local shop, multisign escrow, ...

The community should get more mature and civilised.
Am I right here there were some 50 pages in MNW thread? About a guy who bet, lost, refused to pay, thinking how cool he is? Imo anyone posting beyond the 5th page should be labeled a troll.
Also apparently there exist some people who invested into Pirate's magic funds and now come weeping. There is no way they were not warned before. As Pirate is labeled a scammer, those folks should be labeled dorks.
Also Bitcoin is not another wild west as people are unlikely to build a new virtual justice system. If the existing justice system doesn't protect your schemes, then you should just think of some additional means of security (or give up the schemes). For example, at the moment any public lending should be discouraged because the lenders have got only minimal legal protection. And surely people shouldn't try to make justice by paying a detective and then taking a vote about lynching.
Also the community should make clear their negative stance on matters that are illegal: arms trade, illegal substances trade, money laundering, last but not least scamming and ponzis.

[MysteryMiner]

Bitcoins are perfectly suited for criminal activity. Even more than cash or probably gold. If you want safe kindergarten then use PayPal.

First in year 2010 Bitcoins were used by crypto geeks and drug smugglers. In year 2021 it is used by people resisting new world order. If You don't like hyper-inflating paper dollar, nigger as president and don't think fake democracy enforced with army is best form of government, you are just as "criminal" like botnet owner, pedolover or druggie.

[mobodick]

Bitcoins are perfectly suited for criminal activity. Even more than cash or probably gold. If you want safe kindergarten then use PayPal.

First in year 2010 Bitcoins were used by crypto geeks and drug smugglers. In year 2021 it is used by people resisting new world order. If You don't like hyper-inflating paper dollar, nigger as president and don't think fake democracy enforced with army is best form of government, you are just as "criminal" like botnet owner, pedolover or druggie.

Wait, what??..

You're not even trying...

[MysteryMiner]

Trying what? Trying to pretend that bitcoins are pink and fluffy? Not trying hard enough to ignore that there are such things in a world like black markets, terrorism, osama and obama?

[mobodick]

Trying what? Trying to pretend that bitcoins are pink and fluffy? Not trying to ignore that there are such things in a world like black markets, terrorism and obama?

You're not trying to make a clear point. You're rambling.

btw.
black markets have always existed
terrorism has always existed
you're apparently racist

Why is this an interesting addition to this conversation?

[JMAHH]

How about creating a forum for accusations, investigations and Bitcoin problems in general and let people blow off steam in there?

Keep the main forum problem free and let people take their problems in a forum that is only for registered Bitcointalk.org users? It seems our little tiny community is suffering more and more from "family" problems than as much outsider problems. Nobody as you said can really relate to Bitcoin if they havent gotten the slightest clue about it to begin with, thus removing these VERY LONG and tiresome debates to another forum is a great way to let the public approach to Bitcoin with a positive view, in its first instance.

EDIT: I myself have given up looking at the negative threads. The problems seem to be convoluted and reminds me of a board for teens accusing each other of being bad. Keep the main forum clean, professional and positive.

Yeah, and what will people think when they find out we have a separate forum dedicated solely to scams and the like? Sounds like a bad piece of PR to me...

[MysteryMiner]

Trying what? Trying to pretend that bitcoins are pink and fluffy? Not trying to ignore that there are such things in a world like black markets, terrorism and obama?

You're not trying to make a clear point. You're rambling.

btw.
black markets have always existed
terrorism has always existed
you're apparently racist

Why is this an interesting addition to this conversation?

My point is why people care that Bitcoins are used for such things? It is easier to buy pound of marijuana than gallon of milk using bitcoins. Of course I also have nothing against using bitcoins to buy food other than space cookies, but bitcoins are not mainstream currency for now. I still use dollars and euros and love them. Then more then better!

Black markets exist because some things are banned.
Terrorism exists because there are oppressors and oppressed people who better blow themselves and enemies to pieces than being oppressed and humiliated.
I am racist. Problem?

[mobodick]

Trying what? Trying to pretend that bitcoins are pink and fluffy? Not trying to ignore that there are such things in a world like black markets, terrorism and obama?

You're not trying to make a clear point. You're rambling.

btw.
black markets have always existed
terrorism has always existed
you're apparently racist

Why is this an interesting addition to this conversation?

My point is why people care that Bitcoins are used for such things? It is easier to buy pound of marijuana than gallon of milk using bitcoins. Of course I also have nothing against using bitcoins to buy food other than space cookies, but bitcoins are not mainstream currency for now. I still use dollars and euros and love them. Then more then better!

Black markets exist because some things are banned.

and when was this not the case?

Terrorism exists because there are oppressors and oppressed people who better blow themselves and enemies to pieces than being oppressed and humiliated.

and when was this not the case?

I am racist. Problem?

yes.

[Severian]

black markets, terrorism, osama and obama

All of them are creatures of State or government "rule", oddly.

[Severian]

I am racist. Problem?

yes.

The only redeeming feature of ignorance is that is announces itself so clearly.