9/11 is the Litmus Test

[Littleshop]

Engines along with everything else with any weight was in the hole in the ground. 

An engine core was 2000 feet from the crater.

Roving Engine
Claim: One of Flight 93's engines was found "at a considerable distance from the crash site," according to Lyle Szupinka, a state police officer on the scene who was quoted in the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. Offering no evidence, a posting on Rense.com claimed: "The main body of the engine ... was found miles away from the main wreckage site with damage comparable to that which a heat-seeking missile would do to an airliner."

FACT: Experts on the scene tell PM that a fan from one of the engines was recovered in a catchment basin, downhill from the crash site. Jeff Reinbold, the National Park Service representative responsible for the Flight 93 National Memorial, confirms the direction and distance from the crash site to the basin: just over 300 yards south, which means the fan landed in the direction the jet was traveling. "It's not unusual for an engine to move or tumble across the ground," says Michael K. Hynes, an airline accident expert who investigated the crash of TWA Flight 800 out of New York City in 1996. "When you have very high velocities, 500 mph or more," Hynes says, "you are talking about 700 to 800 ft. per second. For something to hit the ground with that kind of energy, it would only take a few seconds to bounce up and travel 300 yards." Numerous crash analysts contacted by PM concur.

Read more: 9/11 Conspiracy Theories - Debunking the Myths - Flight 93 - Popular Mechanics

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/debunking-911-myths-flight-93

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[Severian]

FACT: Experts... 

Let's review:

First you claimed that if the plane was shot down, there would have been a wide debris field. After being shown the wide debris field, you then said the wind blew papers and insulation around and that all heavy objects were in the crater. After being shown that at least one engine wasn't in the crater but was about a half mile from it, you post a link to a mass market magazine that also pushed the "wind blew the papers around" theory.

[Littleshop]

FACT: Experts...  

Let's review:

First you claimed that if the plane was shot down, there would have been a wide debris field. After being shown the wide debris field, you then said the wind blew papers and insulation around and that all heavy objects were in the crater. After being shown that at least one engine wasn't in the crater but was about a half mile from it, you post a link to a mass market magazine that also pushed the "wind blew the papers around" theory.

There was not a wide debris field.  You are not reading.  Anything that you do not agree with is "mass market" , "government data" etc.  

The engine WAS in the crater.  A single piece of the engine (not the core but the front fan) was 300 yards away in the direction of travel.  Makes sense to me.  

[Severian]

There was not a wide debris field. 

Eight miles from the crash site is a wide debris field.

[Littleshop]

There was not a wide debris field.  

Eight miles from the crash site is a wide debris field.

Nothing heavy went more then 300 yards.   Only light paper an insulation went any distance.

[Severian]

Only light paper an insulation went any distance.

I tend to take an eyewitness description of a cop that was there over the words of those of us that weren't:

State police Maj. Lyle Szupinka said investigators also will be searching a pond
behind the crash site looking for the other recorder and other debris. If
necessary, divers may be brought in to assist search teams, or the pond may be
drained, he said.

Szupinka said searchers found one of the large engines from the aircraft "at a
considerable distance from the crash site."

"It appears to be the whole engine," he added.

Szupinka said most of the remaining debris, scattered over a perimeter that
stretches for several miles, are in pieces no bigger than a "briefcase."

"If you were to go down there, you wouldn't know that was a plane crash," he
continued. "You would look around and say, `I wonder what happened here?' The
first impression looking around you wouldn't say, `Oh, looks like a plane crash.
The debris is very, very small.

http://www.flight93crash.com/whole_engine.txt

I'll be happy to post more eyewitness testimony if need be. It's more fruitful than reading a magazine article by someone that wasn't even there.

[Littleshop]

Only light paper an insulation went any distance.

I tend to take an eyewitness description of a cop that was there over the words of those of us that weren't:

State police Maj. Lyle Szupinka said investigators also will be searching a pond
behind the crash site looking for the other recorder and other debris. If
necessary, divers may be brought in to assist search teams, or the pond may be
drained, he said.

Szupinka said searchers found one of the large engines from the aircraft "at a
considerable distance from the crash site."

"It appears to be the whole engine," he added.

Szupinka said most of the remaining debris, scattered over a perimeter that
stretches for several miles, are in pieces no bigger than a "briefcase."

"If you were to go down there, you wouldn't know that was a plane crash," he
continued. "You would look around and say, `I wonder what happened here?' The
first impression looking around you wouldn't say, `Oh, looks like a plane crash.
The debris is very, very small.

http://www.flight93crash.com/whole_engine.txt

I'll be happy to post more eyewitness testimony if need be. It's more fruitful than reading a magazine article by someone that wasn't even there.

They have a picture of the engine core being dug from the crater.  The thing that guy thought was the engine was just the fan, and for him 300 yards was considerable distance. 

[Severian]

They have a picture of the engine core being dug from the crater.  The thing that guy thought was the engine was just the fan, and for him 300 yards was considerable distance. 

As a state police fire marshal and criminal investigator, Trooper John F. Marshall has seen his share of gruesome crime scenes...

For the first two or three days, Marshall walked the surrounding countryside looking for airplane parts.

"I found a lot of parts," said Marshall, who was awarded a 2000 Law Enforcement Agency Directors award for identifying a man nearly four years after he was found murdered.

"The biggest part I found was one of the plane's engines. It was about 600 yards from the crash site itself. I think they took it out with a winch on a bulldozer."

Marshall, who served four years in the Air Force, said he found many parts that he couldn't specifically identify.

The Sharon Herald
Monday, Oct. 8, 2001

[Littleshop]

They have a picture of the engine core being dug from the crater.  The thing that guy thought was the engine was just the fan, and for him 300 yards was considerable distance. 

As a state police fire marshal and criminal investigator, Trooper John F. Marshall has seen his share of gruesome crime scenes...

For the first two or three days, Marshall walked the surrounding countryside looking for airplane parts.

"I found a lot of parts," said Marshall, who was awarded a 2000 Law Enforcement Agency Directors award for identifying a man nearly four years after he was found murdered.

"The biggest part I found was one of the plane's engines. It was about 600 yards from the crash site itself. I think they took it out with a winch on a bulldozer."

Marshall, who served four years in the Air Force, said he found many parts that he couldn't specifically identify.

The Sharon Herald
Monday, Oct. 8, 2001

While inaccurate, he did not measure, he guessed.  The measurement is 300 yards UNLESS THE GOVERNMENT MOVED THE POND. 

[Littleshop]

On another point.... what is the point?

The American people accept that fighters where out there and would have shot hijacked planes down if they could that day.  While the facts do not support a shoot down, would it be a conspiracy?   Sure it would have changed the sentiment around that flight but it would not even be earth shattering even if i did happen.  This flight 93 conspiracy theory is even dumber then the trade center stuff. 

[Severian]

The American people accept that...

This is the fallacy of False Attribution.

[Littleshop]

The American people accept that...

This is the fallacy of False Attribution.

Disagree.  It was well publicized in pretty much every 911 documentary I have seen that they were ready to shoot down hijacked planes.  Having another plane crash into an occupied area would cause more death and everyone inside the plane is dead anyhow.   A shoot down would not change much other then maybe make the government LOOK MORE COMPETENT. 

[Severian]

Disagree.  It was well publicized in pretty much every 911 documentary I have seen that they were ready to shoot down hijacked planes.  

That may or may not be. It's still a logical fallacy to invoke the American people and their acceptance of something.

[dancupid]

Let's hope the 911 special scientific investigator people team (NESSIPt) are watching this thread (or the 20000 others on youtube) so they can finally come to a timely (and long waited for) conclusion to these terrible events.

[foggyb]

What I don't understand from the conspiracy theory angle is that if they did plan it, how did they keep the secret from coming out? Say what you will, governments are not really good about keeping big secrets.

Conspiracy theorists have no hard evidence, and the fact that there is no hard evidence for their theories speaks a lot by itself.

As far as I can tell, we could uncover new evidence related to 9/11, and previously unknown information can still be revealed.

I think that comprehensively refutes your point.

As for hard evidence, the tower collapse in itself is hard evidence, as no steel-framed skyscraper has ever, before or since, collapsed due to fire. Since the NIST report said that the kerosene fires alone were the cause of the collapse, the conspiracy starts there.

And with a false flag operation of this scale surely some documents would have made it to the public.

Your conjecture is that documents would exist, if there were a conspiracy. That's not a fact, that's your opinion. It is possible that there were documents which were all (wisely) destroyed. Or there could still be hidden documents in the hands of people who want to reveal them, but they don't, out of fear for themselves and/or their families. I don't claim this to be true, its just a hypothesis.

Furthermore, if this is such a massively scaled operation, requiring a lot of planning, how could terrorists in caves pull it off, and more importantly, where is their damn documentation?  (I'm being facetious)

[yogi]

What I don't understand from the conspiracy theory angle is that if they did plan it, how did they keep the secret from coming out? Say what you will, governments are not really good about keeping big secrets. And with a false flag operation of this scale surely some documents would have made it to the public.
Conspiracy theorists have no hard evidence, and the fact that there is no hard evidence for their theories speaks a lot by itself.

I remember seeing an interview once with Tony Ben (A famous UK politician). He was ask if he had ever had to keep any big secrets. He laughed and said "Only little ones, the big ones keep themselves due to public incredulity".

[Richy_T]

What I don't understand from the conspiracy theory angle is that if they did plan it, how did they keep the secret from coming out? Say what you will, governments are not really good about keeping big secrets. And with a false flag operation of this scale surely some documents would have made it to the public.
Conspiracy theorists have no hard evidence, and the fact that there is no hard evidence for their theories speaks a lot by itself.

The press aren't exactly free any more. Belgium had no elected government for 2 years (and got on just fine without them), surprising how few folks know about that, it didnt make the news for some reason. Compared to that keeping 'crackpot conspiricy theories' out of the news isn't such a big thing and considering how little of (for example) windows source code gets out from microsoft even big organisations can keep secrets.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-7349_3-5158496.html

I'm with Myrkul, things don't add up so I'm keeping an open mind but that doesn't mean that anyone can pour any old crap in. All this conspiracy serves to do is group anyone who does have concerns about what happened in with a bunch of crazies. So maybe the conspiracy theory is part of the conspiracy.

(Yes, I know South Park did that)

[Richy_T]

I tend to take an eyewitness description of a cop that was there over the words of those of us that weren't:

I wouldn't take the eyewitness description of a cop that the sky was blue.

[420]

someone(s) planted explosives in all three buildings.

Deniers, accept it already

[Littleshop]

someone(s) planted explosives in all three buildings.

Deniers, accept it already

Yea, because if you repeat a lie often enough it sounds more truthful.