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Author Topic: OPEN LETTER to Donald, Patrick & Amir RE: Bitcoinica  (Read 26543 times)
ninjarobot
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September 16, 2012, 07:11:17 AM
 #101

It has been over 4 months since the SHTF and this has been 'worst case scenario' at every turn. I can honestly say that in the 35 years of my life I have never experienced such a royal mess as this.

Personally I have 23440 USD in my Bitcoinica account (as well as approx 2K BTC). Have received 0 back so far. Even though no USD has ever been stolen from Bitcoinica (The 40K USD has been returned by Chen) and my claim has been confirmed accurate 3 times. It is aggravating to see the Intersango guys not cooperating and forcing liquidation through high-court instead of voluntary.

They don't seem to care because it is not their money on the line. But the way I see it is they are taking money that could have been returned to creditors and handing it over to lawyers instead who charge 200 USD per hour. To me this is practically the same as stealing. Get your act together guys!

I asked Donald to sign the letter over IM. Instead, he accused me of having 'mental problems' and that he would not sign anything from a sociopath and proven liar because 'this shit runs way deeper' but he does not want to fight the 'FUD' or do anything immoral or illegal. He has now blocked me from contacting him again. If Donald agrees I would be happy to share the full chat logs of my communication with him here so the community can decide who has mental problems themselves.

It is good to see Patrick is at least supporting voluntary liquidation, however he should have gotten legal advice months ago. Amir better make up his mind and stop hiding behind the others. As an idealist/activist with strong opinions on what is wrong and what is right I think his behavior in this case is highly hypocritical. After WWII ended there were also a lot of people that said 'they were just following orders'. Please think for yourself and act accordingly.

That said, I don't hold any personal grudges against any of the Bitcoinica crew. (Except perhaps Zhou if it turns out he robbed his baby after selling it while deceiving the general public because his aim in life is to become a millionaire by the age of 21). In retrospect, clearly none of them should have been running a financial service such as Bitcoinica. Amir has been doing a great job with the Bitcoin conference and I respect him for that. (And looking forward to watching the talks online!)

Please sign the letter. If you don't like it because it comes from Tihan - draft your own and have Tihan sign it. Just don't stick your head in the sand and let those that trusted you suffer. Thank you.
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lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)
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September 16, 2012, 09:00:47 AM
 #102

They probably won't do anything unless it goes to court.
Because maybe that way they'll get lucky and get to keep everyone else's money.
The confusing thing is that they actually won't. All the money is frozen in a Mt. Gox account (minus the conversion fees and exchange rate fluctuations resulting from the July theft). Mt. Gox said that they will only unfreeze it if the legal situation is clarified. The Intersango trio has no access to the funds. Baffling? You bet!
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September 16, 2012, 09:17:13 AM
 #103

I will be traveling to Auckland in mid-October. If anyone's got suggestions about interesting documents to copy from courts, addresses to check, etc., I'm open to suggestions. A relative of mine is licensed as a NZ attorney (I do not know if NZ maintains the barrister/solicitor distinction) - the relative has a full-time job and is not looking for outside work, so I do not see them getting involved in the Intersango/Bitcoinica fiasco, but I don't anticipate we'll have any trouble finding the courthouse, etc.

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September 16, 2012, 09:35:23 AM
 #104

I will be traveling to Auckland in mid-October. If anyone's got suggestions about interesting documents to copy from courts, addresses to check, etc., I'm open to suggestions. A relative of mine is licensed as a NZ attorney (I do not know if NZ maintains the barrister/solicitor distinction) - the relative has a full-time job and is not looking for outside work, so I do not see them getting involved in the Intersango/Bitcoinica fiasco, but I don't anticipate we'll have any trouble finding the courthouse, etc.

In Australia and New Zealand, voluntary liquidations are usually conducted without the involvement of the courts - there are statutory bodies which exist to handle them on behalf of the government and the liquidator reports to those bodies.  An application to the NZ High Court is required to place a business in involuntary liquidation, so it would essentially become necessary if the parties are unable to agree on and sign a resolution to appoint a liquidator (creditors can also make such an application, but it seems likely that Wendon will do this).

Courts do become involved if certain circumstances arise during the liquidation but creditors and shareholders would be made aware of these issues through the liquidators reports.

Although creditors are required to lodge their claims within a fairly short time after the business goes into liquidation, the claims are not generally formally processed until the liquidator is in a position to make distributions - so the initial claim form doesn't actually require you to attach evidence of your claim (although you can) but to describe the evidence you have to support your claim.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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September 16, 2012, 09:41:14 AM
 #105

It is good to see Patrick is at least supporting voluntarily liquidation, however he should have gotten legal advice months ago.

This.


Patrick, I believe you nothing. All this going on and you still haven't sought legal advice? Are you kidding me? How stupid do you think we are? Not a single word out of your mouth is trustworthy.

Edit: Dear liquidator, I have always said I will fully co-operate! (except I actually won't) Just sickening how much smarter I am than everyone else.
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September 16, 2012, 10:52:34 AM
 #106


I have repeatedly expressed to all parties that I will absolutely cooperate fully with a receiver or a liquidator.

It is genuinely my hope that everybody who is genuinely owed funds will receive as much as possible.

Until I have received competent legal advice on the matter I will not be signing anything presented by Tihan Seale.

Edit: Advice I am actively seeking.

PATRICK,

YOU ARE A LIAR! [/allcaps]

You lied to my face in San Francisco last month,  and now you are lying on the forums.
Stop lying, and help to return the money to the people it belongs to.

Sign the document!

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September 16, 2012, 11:44:27 AM
 #107

I think they made it clear enough they won't sign.Take it to court already, chaps.

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September 16, 2012, 07:00:28 PM
 #108

I think they made it clear enough they won't sign.Take it to court already, chaps.

This pretty much, really this is probably going to be the first major bitcoin case to get proven in court, depending on how long it takes to get started, if at all. I would be looking forward to hearing a judges interpretation on what bitcoin is.

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September 16, 2012, 08:31:49 PM
 #109

I think they made it clear enough they won't sign.Take it to court already, chaps.

This pretty much, really this is probably going to be the first major bitcoin case to get proven in court, depending on how long it takes to get started, if at all. I would be looking forward to hearing a judges interpretation on what bitcoin is.

I don't think you understand.  All the court will be asked to do is direct that the company be put in liquidation, giving the liquidator the legal authority to take control of Bitcoinica's records and assets. 

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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September 16, 2012, 08:42:13 PM
 #110

I asked Donald to sign the letter over IM. Instead, he accused me of having 'mental problems' and that he would not sign anything from a sociopath and proven liar because 'this shit runs way deeper' but he does not want to fight the 'FUD' or do anything immoral or illegal. He has now blocked me from contacting him again. If Donald agrees I would be happy to share the full chat logs of my communication with him here so the community can decide who has mental problems themselves.

Wow. I think people here would be quite interested in reading a logfile of said conversation.

Are you legally prohibited from posting it? If so, could you tor into pastebin and upload it there for ...ahem... plausible deniability?

To me it seems only right and proper after Amir leaked the entire source code, + multiple legal documents,
thereby directly (or indirectly) causing the latest theft and halting payouts.
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September 16, 2012, 09:39:17 PM
 #111

if it goes to court what is the possibilities of all three of them having to pay more due to negligence and punitive damages.

Bitcoinica still has not given me 50% of my claim of 600 BTC
INTERSANGO can go down with bitcoinica for abandoning customers
Alberto Armandi is a SCAMMER
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September 16, 2012, 10:14:38 PM
 #112

Hello all,

I was at the conference on saturday and it was a really nice event (even though a bit on the utopist / political leftside).

Met quite a lot of very interesting & bright people

I had extensive discussion with Amir & Patrick at the bar where the 8 bit event or whatever was happening, and as I dont really like to disclose "private" conversation I wont say anything here about this.
If anyone wants to talk to me about that I am on skype (search emilien dutang)

To the personn that presented the liquidation paper (I did not see that) I initially intended to distribute public relations tracts with info on the bitcoinica mess at the conference then did not felt like it as I did not want to be a "party crasher" and as Amir & Patrick willingly did extended discussion talk with me about the issues at hand.

I dont want to disclose stuff here as I still need to make up my mind.
I still think I can safelly say that Amir will follow whatever Patrick will do / decide.

Regards,

Emilien

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September 16, 2012, 10:23:25 PM
 #113

if it goes to court what is the possibilities of all three of them having to pay more due to negligence and punitive damages.

"Going to court" in this instance simply means that the court will direct that the company be put into liquidation.  This isn't a lawsuit.  A liquidator can find that the principals were negligent in their actions and have personal liability in respect of the company's failure, but liquidators cannot commence legal actions unless there is substantial reason to believe that doing so will result in further funds becoming available for distribution to creditors after the costs of any such actions have been accounted for.  No liquidator is likely to commence a cross-border legal action against someone who has no substantial assets.

Even if this was a lawsuit, awards of exemplary damages are rare in Commonwealth countries.  The highest award of exemplary damages I've been able to locate in New Zealand was NZD 85,000.  Likewise, costs awards are typically only for about 60-70% of actual costs incurred.

Other people can use the liquidator's findings to support lawsuits in other jurisdictions, though, and that will almost certainly happen.  For a number of reasons, those lawsuits are going to be complex and costly if actually fought so I wouldn't expect any to go to trial.  

In semi-related news, Zhou incorporated NameTerrific on 24 August. 

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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September 24, 2012, 12:08:38 AM
 #114

So, now that the Bitcoinica/Bitcoinica Consultancy/Bitcoin Consultancy guys are done with the conference...remember how they mismanaged like hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of bitcoins and, er, dollars and still, as far as anyone knows, have yet to give the vast majority of everyone's wealth back?

Or, with the passage of so much time and the hosting of such a groovy conference, are all those guys, like, cool with everyone now?
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September 24, 2012, 05:59:32 AM
 #115

So, now that the Bitcoinica/Bitcoinica Consultancy/Bitcoin Consultancy guys are done with the conference...remember how they mismanaged like hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of bitcoins and, er, dollars and still, as far as anyone knows, have yet to give the vast majority of everyone's wealth back?

Or, with the passage of so much time and the hosting of such a groovy conference, are all those guys, like, cool with everyone now?

i am not cool with them

at this point i just hate phantomcircuit for doing NOTHING for their(!) customers.

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September 24, 2012, 07:46:57 AM
 #116

Everyone involved hates them with a passion I'm sure, but life must go on. I don't understand why not more people try to warn their intersango customers of their business practices though.

All in all, I don't think these suckers, Zhou and the conference supporters realize that letting this one pass sustainibly hurts the bitcoin community. In regard of Asic pre-orders some even claim there is no such a thing as a community anyway if rich fuckers get to pre-order 30-300 units and are given absolute priority.

The heists and hacks, the switch to custom hardware that can't be sold again for non-bitcoin related products (taking away hedging against total SHTF scenario) have convinced me that I will probably not jump on the ASIC bandwaggon and leave Bitcoin altogether. For good. I lost quite a bit of money at Bitcoinica, I don't see how people could have trusted Pirate other than being led by greed. To sum it up, it's a greedy, untrustworthy community full of thieves who are either unwilling or unable to secure their shit. Someone should write a white paper about that.

Personally, I will try my luck with litecoins now even if it may not better but at least I don't have to send money to anyone months ahead before receiving a product that may or may not be a good mining machine when it gets finally delivered. It is interesting to see how much some Bitcoiners detest litecoins (esp. at the conference as far as I read). All the more reason to support it now. Best side effect: Bitcoin difficulty can go up to hell and back. New people, new chances - ltc is in nothing inferior to btc technically and perhaps it represents some of the ideals of decentrality much better. I already know there won't be the same narcicistic assholes there as there are in the Bitcoin crowd that made me lose a lot of money.
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September 24, 2012, 07:51:13 AM
 #117

Everyone involved hates them with a passion I'm sure, but life must go on. I don't understand why not more people try to warn their intersango customers of their business practices though.

i did Wink but i dont like to repeat myself

All in all, I don't think these suckers, Zhou and the conference supporters realize that letting this one pass sustainibly hurts the bitcoin community. In regard of Asic pre-orders some even claim there is no such a thing as a community anyway if rich fuckers get to pre-order 30-300 units and are given absolute priority.

+1

The heists and hacks, the switch to custom hardware that can't be sold again for non-bitcoin related products (taking away hedging against total SHTF scenario) have convinced me that I will probably not jump on the ASIC bandwaggon and leave Bitcoin altogether. For good. I lost quite a bit of money at Bitcoinica, I don't see how people could have trusted Pirate other than being led by greed. To sum it up, it's a greedy, untrustworthy community full of thieves who are either unwilling or unable to secure their shit. Someone should write a white paper about that.

i see a difference their.
intersango still claims they are honest.
they just refuse to communicate and to take care of their customers.

i'll jump on the asic wagon Wink
for me bitcoins are still fun

Personally, I will try my luck with litecoins now even if it may not better but at least I don't have to send money to anyone months ahead before receiving a product that may or may not be a good mining machine when it gets finally delivered. It is interesting to see how much some Bitcoiners detest litecoins (esp. at the conference as far as I read). All the more reason to support it now. Best side effect: Bitcoin difficulty can go up to hell and back. New people, new chances - ltc is in nothing inferior to btc technically and perhaps it represents some of the ideals of decentrality much better. I already know there won't be the same narcicistic assholes there as there are in the Bitcoin crowd that made me lose a lot of money.

litecoins will not help to avoid scams.

but as i said: there is a difference between a scammer who runs and intersango who still runs a businness.

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September 27, 2012, 02:13:58 PM
 #118

Everyone involved hates them with a passion I'm sure, but life must go on. I don't understand why not more people try to warn their intersango customers of their business practices though.

All in all, I don't think these suckers, Zhou and the conference supporters realize that letting this one pass sustainibly hurts the bitcoin community. In regard of Asic pre-orders some even claim there is no such a thing as a community anyway if rich fuckers get to pre-order 30-300 units and are given absolute priority.

The heists and hacks, the switch to custom hardware that can't be sold again for non-bitcoin related products (taking away hedging against total SHTF scenario) have convinced me that I will probably not jump on the ASIC bandwaggon and leave Bitcoin altogether. For good. I lost quite a bit of money at Bitcoinica, I don't see how people could have trusted Pirate other than being led by greed. To sum it up, it's a greedy, untrustworthy community full of thieves who are either unwilling or unable to secure their shit. Someone should write a white paper about that.

Personally, I will try my luck with litecoins now even if it may not better but at least I don't have to send money to anyone months ahead before receiving a product that may or may not be a good mining machine when it gets finally delivered. It is interesting to see how much some Bitcoiners detest litecoins (esp. at the conference as far as I read). All the more reason to support it now. Best side effect: Bitcoin difficulty can go up to hell and back. New people, new chances - ltc is in nothing inferior to btc technically and perhaps it represents some of the ideals of decentrality much better. I already know there won't be the same narcicistic assholes there as there are in the Bitcoin crowd that made me lose a lot of money.
+1
 Really, what if it (the chips) is also cheating? I do not want to repeat my mistake. Here no man Entrust. I opened a fund for co-financing of the Russian-speaking users (in my signature), but I have to warn of a possible fraud.
 It harms the image of the project, but it is inevitable. Of course, I'm not ready to buy LTC, but I'll do it if it will be as popular now BTC.
 And,fuck, where my money?

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September 27, 2012, 02:21:48 PM
 #119


but as i said: there is a difference between a scammer who runs and intersango who still runs a businness.

This is what I find so disgusting about the Intersango/Bitcoinica Consultancy crew.  They effectively said, "Yeah, we lost a lot of your money, we have a bunch of it still but getting it back to you is turning out to be really hard and it's giving us a headache, so we're just going to go over here and do something else.  We cool?".

They damn well better be disallowed from becoming members of the Bitcoin Foundation.
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September 27, 2012, 02:32:29 PM
 #120

Is Intersango guy are trying to eat our money and refuse to pay back us?

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