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Author Topic: OPEN LETTER to Donald, Patrick & Amir RE: Bitcoinica  (Read 26518 times)
Nefario
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September 14, 2012, 09:40:46 AM
 #41

Why is this being posted on the forums? It's something to be sent to and between lawyers. This is just stiring the shit.

Really this SHOULD go to court, not just for the liquidation but for the theft and for other laws broken.

To ask or even expect this jpeg to be signed before the weekend is beyond wishful thinking.

Rofl. It was their responsability to claim theft as bitcoinica owners yet they just did nothing

How do you know they have done nothing? Just because people don't post updates on the situation of legal proceedings on the forum doesn't mean nothing is being done. Also how do you know Tihane(or whatever his name is) has done anything or is even who he says he is (has anyone here even met him?)? All he's done is make statements on the forum(has anyone noticed he's been editing earlier statements to make them consistent with what he's said more recently?).

Has no one here considered that they've been advised not to speak on the situation by their lawyer or that they ARE taking action, actual action instead of posting on the forums?

The reason this should go to court is because someone has committed a crime, theft, and attempted to destroy the reputation of an organisation. If you don't prosecute the criminal, even if they give back the money when caught, then that is an economic incentive for them to continue stealing, it's self defeating. Intersango's reputation has been seriously damaged by this incident and this hangs over everyone who works there. Taking this to court will do several things, clear their name, have the thief prosecuted and jailed, and have funds returned to users.

I don't work for Intersango but I it's blatantly obvious you guys are allowing yourselves to be manipulated, some pseudo anonymous person makes a post on the forum saying he did something (can you verify that he did?) and you all run off in the direction he says the criminals went.

Regarding the conference, it starts tomorrow(proper, started unofficially on Wed.), it's been mostly organised BY the guys from Intersango so they have every right to be there. If you don't come (with the aim to boycott Intersango) well fine, thats your loss, I don't think anyone there will miss you and we'll go and create the future of bitcoin without you. It's already a huge success both financially, media and attendance wise.

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September 14, 2012, 10:06:29 AM
 #42

Nefario: you need to understand people who lost coins/money are simply desperate about it and cannot go much longer without hearing about any real progress.

I'm not amongst them but I can understand their feelings, including those of investors who lost heavily in the operation.

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September 14, 2012, 10:22:11 AM
 #43


The reason this should go to court is because someone has committed a crime, theft, and attempted to destroy the reputation of an organisation. If you don't prosecute the criminal, even if they give back the money when caught, then that is an economic incentive for them to continue stealing, it's self defeating. Intersango's reputation has been seriously damaged by this incident and this hangs over everyone who works there. Taking this to court will do several things, clear their name, have the thief prosecuted and jailed, and have funds returned to users.

I don't work for Intersango but I it's blatantly obvious you guys are allowing yourselves to be manipulated, some pseudo anonymous person makes a post on the forum saying he did something (can you verify that he did?) and you all run off in the direction he says the criminals went.

I doubt there are very many people on this forum who would not like to see the thief/thieves caught and prosecuted.  That is - however - a separate legal issue from liquidating the company, which is what needs to happen for the assets which are currently in hand to be distributed to creditors.  There is absolutely no need to delay payments to creditors through the civil process of liquidation.  If further funds are recovered at a later date as a result of criminal prosecution, the distribution of those funds will be determined separately.  The liquidation of Bitcoinica does not preclude recovery of funds through other legal means outside of New Zealand (and it doesn't even affect the recovery of funds within New Zealand if they have been illegally or fraudulently obtained).

Criminal proceedings against the thief/thieves should absolutely pursued and it's in the best interests of all at Intersango to actively seek and assist a criminal investigation by the relevant authorities of the Bitcoinica thefts.

I, for one, will be reading the liquidator's reports with great interest and if they appear inadequate I can assure you that I'll not only make that fact public on this forum but I'll also be on the phone to the Official Assignee's office in New Zealand.  Zhou's role in this will not go unexamined.

For the record, Tihan is anything but "semi-anonymous".  If you don't know any information about him which he hasn't disclosed on this forum, then it's because you haven't looked.  Do you really think that when the shit hit the fan with Bitcoinica and Tihan's involvement was first revealed people didn't go digging.  Hell, even the amount he paid for his house is a matter of public record.

I even believe that walking away from the refund process following the MtGox intrusion was the right thing for the Intersango guys to do.  In doing that, however, they had a duty to ensure that the process of returning user funds was legally handed over to someone authorised to conduct that process as soon as possible - by passing a resolution like the one in the OP and appointing a liquidator.  It really is that simple to put a business into voluntary liquidation and it could have been done a long time ago.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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September 14, 2012, 10:48:24 AM
 #44

Why is this being posted on the forums? It's something to be sent to and between lawyers. This is just stiring the shit.

Really this SHOULD go to court, not just for the liquidation but for the theft and for other laws broken.

To ask or even expect this jpeg to be signed before the weekend is beyond wishful thinking.

Rofl. It was their responsability to claim theft as bitcoinica owners yet they just did nothing

How do you know they have done nothing? Just because people don't post updates on the situation of legal proceedings on the forum doesn't mean nothing is being done. Also how do you know Tihane(or whatever his name is) has done anything or is even who he says he is (has anyone here even met him?)? All he's done is make statements on the forum(has anyone noticed he's been editing earlier statements to make them consistent with what he's said more recently?).

A few people have met him.

Has no one here considered that they've been advised not to speak on the situation by their lawyer or that they ARE taking action, actual action instead of posting on the forums?

Then it probably is too hard to say "We can not comment until X as advised by our lawyer" ?
In the meantime I guess it was / is too hard to post any update to mail or the website for months ?

Do you think I have not being patient sending dizains of mails for no answer ?
The only contribution that I can recall of patrick is posting trolling videos.

The reason this should go to court is because someone has committed a crime, theft, and attempted to destroy the reputation of an organisation. If you don't prosecute the criminal, even if they give back the money when caught, then that is an economic incentive for them to continue stealing, it's self defeating. Intersango's reputation has been seriously damaged by this incident and this hangs over everyone who works there. Taking this to court will do several things, clear their name, have the thief prosecuted and jailed, and have funds returned to users.

Everybody is asking for that, but NOT from the liquidator and NOT from my fund.
WE CANT DIRECTLY ATTACK THE HACKERS AS HE DID NOT STEAL FROM US, AND THE RECUPERATION OF THE FUND IS NOT DIRECTLY DEPENDANT FROM THE THEFT.

They had every right to declare a theft from the bitcoinica company yet they did not. Or did they ?

IF they did anything why is everybody in the bitcoin community except their london buddies acting like they did not ?

I don't work for Intersango but I it's blatantly obvious you guys are allowing yourselves to be manipulated, some pseudo anonymous person makes a post on the forum saying he did something (can you verify that he did?) and you all run off in the direction he says the criminals went.

How ignorant that remark is.
I am probably much more informed than you about everything regarding the creditors side.
The only thing I am probably missing is the intersango guys side, but it is not like they had no chance to give it.

When they lost the 400k$ I still remenber "I guess users will have to take a 30% loss". Not a single "sorry" or anything.

Regarding the conference, it starts tomorrow(proper, started unofficially on Wed.), it's been mostly organised BY the guys from Intersango so they have every right to be there. If you don't come (with the aim to boycott Intersango) well fine, thats your loss, I don't think anyone there will miss you and we'll go and create the future of bitcoin without you. It's already a huge success both financially, media and attendance wise.

A personnal attack even though you know nothing about me and what I may have done or not for bitcoins.
Excellent way to gain credibility on your post.

They have every right to present and organise the conference, we have every right to go and be there and make this topic a hot issue at the conference.

And wether or not you want it probably will.

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September 14, 2012, 10:57:53 AM
 #45

And sorry, but if the goal of intersango is to clear their reputation by holding MY money and making us PAY for legal and civil attorney, then they are essentially saying :
"hello dear users we dont care at all about you all we care about is our reputation"
What does that precisely say about them ? Any guess ?

They need to realise that the only way to redeem themselves is precisely to help the users.
If the users in some way get fucked up I am sure that a lot of people will be commited to ruining their precious reputation one way or another, ESPECIALLY if they sacrificed the users for their legal reputation or whatever that is

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September 14, 2012, 01:39:56 PM
 #46

In a practical sense, they are thieves.
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September 14, 2012, 01:49:58 PM
 #47

Why is this being posted on the forums? It's something to be sent to and between lawyers. This is just stiring the shit.

Really this SHOULD go to court, not just for the liquidation but for the theft and for other laws broken.

To ask or even expect this jpeg to be signed before the weekend is beyond wishful thinking.

Rofl. It was their responsability to claim theft as bitcoinica owners yet they just did nothing

How do you know they have done nothing? Just because people don't post updates on the situation of legal proceedings on the forum doesn't mean nothing is being done. Also how do you know Tihane(or whatever his name is) has done anything or is even who he says he is (has anyone here even met him?)? All he's done is make statements on the forum(has anyone noticed he's been editing earlier statements to make them consistent with what he's said more recently?).

Has no one here considered that they've been advised not to speak on the situation by their lawyer or that they ARE taking action, actual action instead of posting on the forums?

The reason this should go to court is because someone has committed a crime, theft, and attempted to destroy the reputation of an organisation. If you don't prosecute the criminal, even if they give back the money when caught, then that is an economic incentive for them to continue stealing, it's self defeating. Intersango's reputation has been seriously damaged by this incident and this hangs over everyone who works there. Taking this to court will do several things, clear their name, have the thief prosecuted and jailed, and have funds returned to users.

I don't work for Intersango but I it's blatantly obvious you guys are allowing yourselves to be manipulated, some pseudo anonymous person makes a post on the forum saying he did something (can you verify that he did?) and you all run off in the direction he says the criminals went.

Regarding the conference, it starts tomorrow(proper, started unofficially on Wed.), it's been mostly organised BY the guys from Intersango so they have every right to be there. If you don't come (with the aim to boycott Intersango) well fine, thats your loss, I don't think anyone there will miss you and we'll go and create the future of bitcoin without you. It's already a huge success both financially, media and attendance wise.

+1

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September 14, 2012, 02:22:02 PM
 #48

...
How do you know they have done nothing? Just because people don't post updates on the situation of legal proceedings on the forum doesn't mean nothing is being done. ...

Has no one here considered that they've been advised not to speak on the situation by their lawyer or that they ARE taking action, actual action instead of posting on the forums?

... Intersango's reputation has been seriously damaged by this incident and this hangs over everyone who works there. Taking this to court will do several things, clear their name, have the thief prosecuted and jailed, and have funds returned to users.
...
Regarding the conference, ...it's been mostly organised BY the guys from Intersango so they have every right to be there. If you don't come (with the aim to boycott Intersango) well fine, thats your loss, I don't think anyone there will miss you and we'll go and create the future of bitcoin without you. It's already a huge success both financially, media and attendance wise.
With what's known, how can you expect us to speculate they have done anything ?  Since the last theft they have said nothing relevant about it that I can see.

On the other hand, I remember things like :"I could care less about people like Roger Ver who have a lot of money lost ..." -Amir  

Quote
... There was a deal in the works for Bitcoinica to be sold for enough money to cover the entire shortfall for returning customer funds. That deal fell apart because Amir open sourced the code. Open sourcing it destroyed most of its value in the eyes of the potential buyers.
(that's what allowed the theft of 40 000+ BTC) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67199.msg1101382#msg1101382

This elaborated statement from Amir : "This is not a kangaroo court"   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95814.0

Patrick Strateman having fun : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98622.20

Patrick Strateman's only statement on the lost of 400 000 USD of customers fund: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95738.msg1054988#msg1054988

How is it that they can organize a conference and work on their intersango exchange / electrum but can't be bothered to update bitcoinica.com or make use of the Bitcoinica mailing list to reassure customers ?


Am I missing something ?
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September 14, 2012, 03:05:29 PM
 #49

...
How do you know they have done nothing? Just because people don't post updates on the situation of legal proceedings on the forum doesn't mean nothing is being done. ...

Has no one here considered that they've been advised not to speak on the situation by their lawyer or that they ARE taking action, actual action instead of posting on the forums?

... Intersango's reputation has been seriously damaged by this incident and this hangs over everyone who works there. Taking this to court will do several things, clear their name, have the thief prosecuted and jailed, and have funds returned to users.
...
Regarding the conference, ...it's been mostly organised BY the guys from Intersango so they have every right to be there. If you don't come (with the aim to boycott Intersango) well fine, thats your loss, I don't think anyone there will miss you and we'll go and create the future of bitcoin without you. It's already a huge success both financially, media and attendance wise.
With what's known, how can you expect us to speculate they have done anything ?  Since the last theft they have said nothing relevant about it that I can see.

On the other hand, I remember things like :"I could care less about people like Roger Ver who have a lot of money lost ..." -Amir  

Quote
... There was a deal in the works for Bitcoinica to be sold for enough money to cover the entire shortfall for returning customer funds. That deal fell apart because Amir open sourced the code. Open sourcing it destroyed most of its value in the eyes of the potential buyers.
(that's what allowed the theft of 40 000+ BTC) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67199.msg1101382#msg1101382

This elaborated statement from Amir : "This is not a kangaroo court"   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95814.0

Patrick Strateman having fun : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98622.20

Patrick Strateman's only statement on the lost of 400 000 USD of customers fund: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95738.msg1054988#msg1054988

How is it that they can organize a conference and work on their intersango exchange / electrum but can't be bothered to update bitcoinica.com or make use of the Bitcoinica mailing list to reassure customers ?


Am I missing something ?

Sounds like someone doesn't realize they're a mushroom  Sad

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September 14, 2012, 03:07:38 PM
 #50

...
Sounds like someone doesn't realize they're a mushroom  Sad
Do you realize you're polluting by quoting whole posts and adding nothing to it ?
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September 14, 2012, 03:28:32 PM
 #51

I am kind of finding this fiasco hard to believe.  Although, I have only had a few conversations with Amir over the internet, he has been really nice and patient with me during the previous process.  I have never spoken to Prince Patrick, though.

What would be the downfall of signing this document from their POV?  The sooner this shit gets done, the sooner the community can move forward.  Unless I am missing something, I don't even know why these guys would want to be in public around other bitcoin people while all this shit is still up in the air.  It is fucking embarrassing and starting to get just a tad bit ridiculous.  I would have a seriously hard time looking people in the eye when speaking and meandering around the conference.

Please, just sign this thing and let's turn the page.
 




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defxor
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September 14, 2012, 06:05:44 PM
 #52

Also how do you know Tihane(or whatever his name is) has done anything or is even who he says he is (has anyone here even met him?)?

Tihan Seale is who he says he is, according to Gavin. I'm not sure there's much more trust than that to be had in the Bitcoin community.


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September 14, 2012, 06:34:29 PM
 #53

Also how do you know Tihane(or whatever his name is) has done anything or is even who he says he is (has anyone here even met him?)?

Tihan Seale is who he says he is, according to Gavin. I'm not sure there's much more trust than that to be had in the Bitcoin community.


Let's say, for sake of argument, Gavin said the same thing about me--Bruno. But Bruno Boy is the only known person to have ever met Zhou. That aspect can be put up for dispute.

About the media attending the conference. If any of them are worth their salt, they should be asking very serious questions in regard to Bitcoinica of said three attendees.

Also, I mentioned it once on this thread, and has been echoed in a different way: Iain, the liquidator, should look into Zhou's involvement in Bitcoinica. His actions should not be left off the table.

For what it's worth, thanks, Tihan, for moving this forward. I would love to comment more on this, but I now need to check some edits on this forum.

~Bruno~
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September 14, 2012, 07:52:56 PM
 #54

Let's say, for sake of argument, Gavin said the same thing about me--Bruno. But Bruno Boy is the only known person to have ever met Zhou. That aspect can be put up for dispute.

I don't understand what the argument is.

Quote
Also, I mentioned it once on this thread, and has been echoed in a different way: Iain, the liquidator, should look into Zhou's involvement in Bitcoinica. His actions should not be left off the table.

There have been no new facts disclosed that change my opinion since I wrote this post, quite a while ago. The least complex explanation that fits all known facts involve no one but Zhou:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95795.msg1065233#msg1065233

With regards to Donald, Patrick and Amir I would just consider them to be in denial, besides being utterly incompetent.

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September 14, 2012, 08:09:31 PM
 #55

If the reason for Amir and co for not distancing themselves from the conference is in fact that it's their own conference aka "Intersango's Bitcoin conference" you shouldn't ask yourself why the conference wasn't cancelled (next necessary step imo) but what the hell you are still doing there to support it.

On an upside, this conference will give people a chance to confront team Intersango with the issue in person. They really must have balls, I'm telling ya.
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September 14, 2012, 10:31:39 PM
 #56

If the reason for Amir and co for not distancing themselves from the conference is in fact that it's their own conference aka "Intersango's Bitcoin conference" you shouldn't ask yourself why the conference wasn't cancelled (next necessary step imo) but what the hell you are still doing there to support it.

On an upside, this conference will give people a chance to confront team Intersango with the issue in person. They really must have balls, I'm telling ya.

Indeed.

I can't wait to see them try and act stupid with a camera shoved in their faces ...

Too bad I am not bothered enough to attend their sham conference and do it myself.
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September 14, 2012, 10:47:28 PM
 #57

Quote
Seriously why are these guys still even allowed to talk at the conference in London. These guys should not even be related to bitcoins anymore. I still do not understand who still uses intersango after all this BS.
Because they're simultaneously organizing it and the only people participating. So in the sense everyone's allowed to talk in his own living room...

Quote
I don't work for Intersango
Except you do.

Quote
Regarding the conference, it starts tomorrow(proper, started unofficially on Wed.), it's been mostly organised BY the guys from Intersango
Including you.

Quote
we'll go and create the future of bitcoin without you
The only future you will create is the future news in the Cartmell suit / more luzly drama with the Global Scam Exchange.
Way to go with the partial statements however.

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September 14, 2012, 10:54:23 PM
 #58

I'm at the conference. There are plenty of people here, more than last year. Boycotting it would be like shooting yourself in the foot.

I spoke with Amir and Donald about Bitcoinica. I don't think it's likely they will help with the liquidation.
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September 14, 2012, 11:01:20 PM
 #59

If the reason for Amir and co for not distancing themselves from the conference is in fact that it's their own conference aka "Intersango's Bitcoin conference" you shouldn't ask yourself why the conference wasn't cancelled (next necessary step imo) but what the hell you are still doing there to support it.

On an upside, this conference will give people a chance to confront team Intersango with the issue in person. They really must have balls, I'm telling ya.

Indeed.

I can't wait to see them try and act stupid with a camera shoved in their faces ...

Too bad I am not bothered enough to attend their sham conference and do it myself.

You're assuming that the "media" in attendance will even know about the Bitcoinica clusterfuck let alone regard it as worth any kind of in your face questioning.  To date, media reports regarding Bitcoinica and other Bitcoin debacles have tended to be inaccurate and far from probing.  Investigative journalism isn't something we've really seen in relation to Bitcoin.

Quote from: Bruno
Also, I mentioned it once on this thread, and has been echoed in a different way: Iain, the liquidator, should look into Zhou's involvement in Bitcoinica. His actions should not be left off the table.

Zhou's role will be looked at but a liquidation isn't a criminal investigation, although it might reveal criminal actions which would be referred to the Serious Fraud Office for further investigation.  The role of a liquidator is quite specific, and even though Iain McLennan is fully qualified to do all sorts of financial investigations, he can only do the specific work for which he has been retained.  As his fees come directly from the insolvent estate, he's ethically bound not to waste money on matters which will not increase the return to creditors.

Quote
I spoke with Amir and Donald about Bitcoinica. I don't think it's likely they will help with the liquidation.

It's their right to do that but they need to bear in mind that their choice may have implications which extend beyond Bitcoinica.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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September 14, 2012, 11:05:03 PM
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I'm at the conference. There are plenty of people here, more than last year. Boycotting it would be like shooting yourself in the foot.

I spoke with Amir and Donald about Bitcoinica. I don't think it's likely they will help with the liquidation.

There was about 100-150 people at the dinner, which isn't the conference proper, there are over 300 people attending, I'm exhausted already and it's not started yet.

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