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Author Topic: Why have Bitcoin instead of cash?  (Read 246114 times)
AtheistAKASaneBrain
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August 01, 2015, 03:29:38 PM
 #141

the transactions are instant , only confirmations get some time ,anyway,be able to buy with bitcoins is on of the big purposes of it lower the fees paying less and getting a good product as we would pay with fiat.Atleast is should be like that since the fees to pay and receive in bitcoins are very low,soo i hope commerce and people understand that they can have the same profit asking a lower ammount with bitcoins.

I don't understand why people complain (or some people complain) about Bitcoins confirmation times and want faster confirmation times, when credit cards may take up to 180 days to fully confirm a transaction and have it safe from chargebacks. I mean 10min vs 180 days, isn't this revolutionary enough?
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August 01, 2015, 03:52:42 PM
 #142

The biggest plus is from an investment perspective. Money should grow in value over time not devalue like fiat does so that's a plus. No authority can mess with the supply so that's another.
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August 01, 2015, 03:54:34 PM
 #143

the transactions are instant , only confirmations get some time

The transactions are instant due to its technological benefits, and confirmation takes a little while longer comparatively because it happens in realtime. If you are worried about confirmations, the same takes place with credit cards and it might take 120-160 days for a complete successful confirmation (Maximum). If you compare the same time with the amount it takes with bitcoins, you know which is much better Smiley
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August 01, 2015, 05:13:23 PM
 #144

the transactions are instant , only confirmations get some time ,anyway,be able to buy with bitcoins is on of the big purposes of it lower the fees paying less and getting a good product as we would pay with fiat.Atleast is should be like that since the fees to pay and receive in bitcoins are very low,soo i hope commerce and people understand that they can have the same profit asking a lower ammount with bitcoins.

I don't understand why people complain (or some people complain) about Bitcoins confirmation times and want faster confirmation times, when credit cards may take up to 180 days to fully confirm a transaction and have it safe from chargebacks. I mean 10min vs 180 days, isn't this revolutionary enough?

Because bitcoins should be useable like normal money too. And you don't go into a store and wait 10 minutes with the cashier until you get a confirmation. Smiley

That's really something that is hindering adoption i think.
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August 01, 2015, 10:37:29 PM
 #145

the transactions are instant , only confirmations get some time ,anyway,be able to buy with bitcoins is on of the big purposes of it lower the fees paying less and getting a good product as we would pay with fiat.Atleast is should be like that since the fees to pay and receive in bitcoins are very low,soo i hope commerce and people understand that they can have the same profit asking a lower ammount with bitcoins.

Not everytime confirmations takes time, only few times but that is a part and parcel of any technology that we use. But for me bitcoin is something best when it comes to online transfers to send money across the countries with very low transaction costs and also the purchasing power goes low as you dont want to keep on spending your bitcoins as you want to keep it safe for the future.
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August 03, 2015, 07:47:54 AM
 #146

I recently paid for some local tacos using Bitcoin. My friend who was unfamilar with Bitcoin thought it was strange, like I technically didn't pay for them or something. We got into discussing Bitcoin and one of the questions he asked me was:
"Why would you want Bitcoins instead of cash?". For a second I didn't know what to say; then I thought about it and here is what I came up with. Feel free to contribute to this.

2) Bitcoins are a potential investment, cash is not. Paper currency only really goes down in value, Bitcoins have a lot of potential to be worth more as time goes on.


That's not totally true. Paper cash is not going always down in value. The lats times for example the us dollar are evaluated about 25% more. Or are some paper cash that are very strong and stable in time. I can nominate one: Euro. While bitcoin is not at all stable. I is the most volatile currency i know. Its value change every day (except the last months when was a kind of stable). It is well known that one of the most bad things of bitcoin is its volatility. There are tellings that its value will increase to much in time and after to much time but those are only words.
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August 03, 2015, 08:05:08 AM
 #147

I recently paid for some local tacos using Bitcoin. My friend who was unfamilar with Bitcoin thought it was strange, like I technically didn't pay for them or something. We got into discussing Bitcoin and one of the questions he asked me was:
"Why would you want Bitcoins instead of cash?". For a second I didn't know what to say; then I thought about it and here is what I came up with. Feel free to contribute to this.

2) Bitcoins are a potential investment, cash is not. Paper currency only really goes down in value, Bitcoins have a lot of potential to be worth more as time goes on.


That's not totally true. Paper cash is not going always down in value. The lats times for example the us dollar are evaluated about 25% more. Or are some paper cash that are very strong and stable in time. I can nominate one: Euro. While bitcoin is not at all stable. I is the most volatile currency i know. Its value change every day (except the last months when was a kind of stable). It is well known that one of the most bad things of bitcoin is its volatility. There are tellings that its value will increase to much in time and after to much time but those are only words.

The US dollar is higher in value than other currencies, that's true. But if you live in the US, it doesn't matter that you buy goods 25% cheaper, or buy 25% more with the same dollar.
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August 04, 2015, 01:46:45 AM
 #148

the transactions are instant , only confirmations get some time ,anyway,be able to buy with bitcoins is on of the big purposes of it lower the fees paying less and getting a good product as we would pay with fiat.Atleast is should be like that since the fees to pay and receive in bitcoins are very low,soo i hope commerce and people understand that they can have the same profit asking a lower ammount with bitcoins.

Not everytime confirmations takes time, only few times but that is a part and parcel of any technology that we use. But for me bitcoin is something best when it comes to online transfers to send money across the countries with very low transaction costs and also the purchasing power goes low as you dont want to keep on spending your bitcoins as you want to keep it safe for the future.


I'm not complaining about our blockhain bitcoins for me allows you to convert any amount online and send anywhere in the world anytime in the banks has time limit and most transacçoes so complete the next day, 24/7 is bitcoin days always fast and effective
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August 06, 2015, 04:40:45 PM
 #149

the transactions are instant , only confirmations get some time ,anyway,be able to buy with bitcoins is on of the big purposes of it lower the fees paying less and getting a good product as we would pay with fiat.Atleast is should be like that since the fees to pay and receive in bitcoins are very low,soo i hope commerce and people understand that they can have the same profit asking a lower ammount with bitcoins.

Not everytime confirmations takes time, only few times but that is a part and parcel of any technology that we use. But for me bitcoin is something best when it comes to online transfers to send money across the countries with very low transaction costs and also the purchasing power goes low as you dont want to keep on spending your bitcoins as you want to keep it safe for the future.


I'm not complaining about our blockhain bitcoins for me allows you to convert any amount online and send anywhere in the world anytime in the banks has time limit and most transacçoes so complete the next day, 24/7 is bitcoin days always fast and effective

And the best thing is there are no government or public holidays involved like banks when it comes to transfer money online as it is available 24/7. Banks really sucks at this time as you don't have any other option rather then to wait till banks starts functioning. But now that problem as solved.
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August 06, 2015, 04:47:44 PM
 #150

I think you should extend the discussion about security. As far as buying goes, it's not as secure as people may think Bitcoin is. You don't ever have access to those funds as soon as it's sent. You have to entirely trust the seller with your funds as soon as you hit send.  It's important to note that safety and security is in the hands of the seller. I would much rather pay with cash when purchasing something. When selling something, I'd much rather receive bitcoin.
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August 06, 2015, 05:00:58 PM
 #151

the right choice, moreover with bitcoin we do not need to use the banks to control and save the money we know many pieces of deposit in banks
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August 06, 2015, 05:23:47 PM
 #152

I think you should extend the discussion about security. As far as buying goes, it's not as secure as people may think Bitcoin is. You don't ever have access to those funds as soon as it's sent. You have to entirely trust the seller with your funds as soon as you hit send.  It's important to note that safety and security is in the hands of the seller. I would much rather pay with cash when purchasing something. When selling something, I'd much rather receive bitcoin.
As you said this is entirely different topic. Bitcoin itself is secure enough. No one will gonna hack your wallet and steal your coins. From the other hand hacking online services is quite possible both in the case of bitcoin and fiat. As far as trading goes you can be scammed by bitcoin user as much as by someone who will send you potato in a box after you pay him with dollars. There is no clear answer.
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August 07, 2015, 10:01:55 PM
 #153

I think you should extend the discussion about security. As far as buying goes, it's not as secure as people may think Bitcoin is. You don't ever have access to those funds as soon as it's sent. You have to entirely trust the seller with your funds as soon as you hit send.  It's important to note that safety and security is in the hands of the seller. I would much rather pay with cash when purchasing something. When selling something, I'd much rather receive bitcoin.
As you said this is entirely different topic. Bitcoin itself is secure enough. No one will gonna hack your wallet and steal your coins. From the other hand hacking online services is quite possible both in the case of bitcoin and fiat. As far as trading goes you can be scammed by bitcoin user as much as by someone who will send you potato in a box after you pay him with dollars. There is no clear answer.

Although both fiat currency and Bitcoin can be hacked like you said, it's much more easier to recover funds stolen in fiat currency. As far as Bitcoin hackings go, you pretty much can kiss it goodbye as soon as it leaves your wallet. The coins can be traced, yes, but with the numerous mixing services, you can lose track of the coins fast. Stolen fiat currency is much more harder to hide and spend without notifying law enforcement. 
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August 08, 2015, 12:07:46 AM
 #154

Although both fiat currency and Bitcoin can be hacked

Wrong, BTC can be hacked but FIAT cant be hacked, it can be stolen. Thats two different meaning there

it's much more easier to recover funds stolen in fiat currency.

It is indeed but the real question would be why would you want to get your money stolen in the first place? Basically with BTC your funds are secured as long as the wallet containing it isnt connected to the network ( cold wallet ).

Stolen fiat currency is much more harder to hide and spend without notifying law enforcement. 

Not exactly the case for this unless you are robbing a bank but if you are robbed a person than you can easily spend what you have robbed so this example is literally wrong. You dont even know the serial number of your FIAT in your wallet right now let alone how would you want to put a report for a cop regarding this to stop the FIAT from being used

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August 08, 2015, 03:03:39 AM
 #155

Wrong, BTC can be hacked but FIAT cant be hacked, it can be stolen. Thats two different meaning there


Clearly fiat currency itself can not be "hacked". I am implying accounts that hold fiat currency can be hacked.  To be more technical, you can't really "hack" a Bitcoin either but more so a Bitcoin wallet. Again, it was meant to be implied for both Bitcoin and fiat currencies.

It is indeed but the real question would be why would you want to get your money stolen in the first place? Basically with BTC your funds are secured as long as the wallet containing it isnt connected to the network ( cold wallet ).

Well, no one wants to get their funds stolen. It's something that happens unexpectedly. When comparing Bitcoin to fiat currency, I'm talking about a hot wallet in which it's not something that will contain BTC that's tucked away. It's a wallet that will be accessed daily transactions which make it more vulnerable to attacks.



Not exactly the case for this unless you are robbing a bank but if you are robbed a person than you can easily spend what you have robbed so this example is literally wrong. You dont even know the serial number of your FIAT in your wallet right now let alone how would you want to put a report for a cop regarding this to stop the FIAT from being used

You're talking about tracing money from a wallet when at most a robbery of your personal wallet will put you out a couple hundred dollars (and a big headache). I'm referring to mostly hackings and online thefts (because Bitcoin is online based) to make an even comparison. If you're talking about physical robberies, it could happen with Bitcoin as well. There has been many LBC trades that went sour with the buyer robbing the seller's bitcoin right in front of them (similar to a robber stealing a regular wallet), but I'm not referring to this, as I said. I'm talking online hackings/thefts. If you have a hacked WU account, paypal account, ect. It's much more easier to see where that money has went. On the other hand, you can also see where Bitcoins have went through Blockchain analysis, but it's hard to attach an identity to an address at times. As far as a robber goes, it's very likely a robber will eventually get caught  (in developed countries) which in that case you can usually track where that money went from the source who took it. At that point, you have someone responsible for it anyways so where it went is probably not as relevant. Bitcoin hackers are almost impossible to catch.


Overall, Bitcoin is very secure. I'm not trying to undermine its security protocols, but it isn't immune to problems or downsides which is why I said the idea of security needs to be extended to cover both sides for it to be fair. Fiat currency also has its downs, I'm not trying to say it's perfect either.



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August 08, 2015, 04:03:26 AM
 #156

Although both fiat currency and Bitcoin can be hacked

Wrong, BTC can be hacked but FIAT cant be hacked, it can be stolen. Thats two different meaning there

it's much more easier to recover funds stolen in fiat currency.

It is indeed but the real question would be why would you want to get your money stolen in the first place? Basically with BTC your funds are secured as long as the wallet containing it isnt connected to the network ( cold wallet ).

Stolen fiat currency is much more harder to hide and spend without notifying law enforcement. 

Not exactly the case for this unless you are robbing a bank but if you are robbed a person than you can easily spend what you have robbed so this example is literally wrong. You dont even know the serial number of your FIAT in your wallet right now let alone how would you want to put a report for a cop regarding this to stop the FIAT from being used

Bitcoin has never been hacked, so nobody can question its security, is pretty safe. Wallets on the other hand, not as safe as bitcoins. There have been wallet hacks and also scams. Fiat can obviously not be hacked, but it could be destroyed very easily, and debit/credit cards are not so hard to crack either, there are a million cases every month of card theft. Bitcoin might help you keep your funds private, while a government has complete access to your bank account details and have the authority to question your transactions.
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August 08, 2015, 04:23:19 PM
 #157

BITCOIN IS THE world’s most popular digital currency — not just a form of money, but a way of moving money around — and the darling topic du jour of the tech industry right now. [WIRED has its primer on what bitcoin is and how it works here.]

As a security researcher, I admire bitcoin-the-protocol. But I believe bitcoin-the-currency contains a fatal flaw.
As a security researcher, I admire bitcoin-the-protocol. It’s an incredibly clever piece of cryptographic engineering, especially the proof-of-work as a way of maintaining an indelible history and a signature scheme which, when properly used, can limit the damage that might be done by an adversary with a quantum computer. But I believe bitcoin-the-currency contains a fatal flaw, one that ensures that bitcoin won’t ever achieve widespread adoption as a currency.

The flaw? That bitcoin transactions are irreversible. That is, they can never be undone: Once committed, there is no “oops”, no “takeback”, no “control-Z”. Combined with bitcoin’s independence — it is a separate currency with a floating exchange rate — this flaw is arguably lethal to money systems.

Once committed, there is no ‘oops’, ‘takeback’, or ‘control-Z’.
Bitcoin advocates will argue that both its irreversibility and independence are benefits. That they were explicit design decisions to defy control by governments or banks. But to me these features are flaws, because a tenet of modern finance asserts that anything electronic must be reversible. If bitcoin really is the internet applied to money … then it, too, should have a “back” button.

Without an undo/ back button, it’s only possible to prevent fraud. With an undo, it would also be possible to detect and mitigate fraud; to see that something bad happened and then actually do something about it. Credit cards, bank account transfers, and all other electronic transactions involving a bank all have an “undo” button.

Banks rely on the reversibility feature every day to stop fraudulent activities. Bitcoin robbery cases aren’t just rising because of interest in the currency — the most recent is a European bitcoin payment processor losing $1M after a DDoS attack — they’re rising because robbing a bank online involves much less friction than doing so in person.

NICHOLAS WEAVER
ABOUT
Nicholas Weaver is a researcher at the International Computer Science Institute in Berkeley and U.C. San Diego (though this opinion is his own). He focuses on network security as well as network intrusion detection, defenses for DNS resolvers, and tools for detecting ISP-introduced manipulations of a user’s network connection. Weaver received his Ph.D. in Computer Science from U.C. Berkeley.

In the current financial system, the only major irreversible transactions involve withdrawing cash. This is a process that must happen in person and therefore naturally imposes substantial limits; in-person requirements provide attribution, keep an attacker from automating the process, and limit the “attack surface”. For example:

To steal a million dollars hidden under mattresses, a thief needs to break into thousands of homes.
To steal a million dollars from a typical business’s bank account, thieves need to transfer it to a network of roughly 100 money mules.
Each mule must then withdraw less than $10,000 from their account within a short period of time, take the cash to Western Union, and wire the money to the thieves. (This is why those running the mules can claim up to 40-50 percent of the take!)
To steal a million dollars worth of bitcoins stored by a business, however, a thief only needs the private key. Likewise, to steal $1000 worth of bitcoins each from 1000 people, the thief only needs to have his or her bot software running on enough victims with enough bitcoins to automate the process.

This means bitcoins should never be “stored” on an internet-connected device. That includes our computers and our smartphones. (And have you heard the one about the guy who keeps his key on his finger?) Let’s pause for a moment to reflect on that: What sort of online currency requires using offline computers and objects for all storage?

Now, it is theoretically true that stolen coins could be blocked. If a portion of the network blocks stolen bitcoins today, then the same mechanism could block bitcoins that passed through black markets or offshore exchanges (such as BTC-e) that don’t implement anti-money-laundering protections. Yet the bitcoin community strongly resists the idea of blacklists, because it eliminates fungibility — the notion that all bitcoins are identical — which is essential for a currency. If every dollar used in a drug deal couldn’t be used again, would dollars work as currency? Especially if, sometime after acceptance, a dollar becomes void and blacklisted after the fact because of its previous involvement in a crime?

Bitcoins should never be stored on an internet-connected device. But what sort of online currency requires using offline computers for all storage?
Bitcoin advocates insist that the theft problem is solvable. For the sake of argument, let’s assume that some bitcoin-centric hardware company deploys completely secure and free hardware bitcoin wallets for anyone to use. And let’s also assume consumers are happy with such an unregulatable model and don’t care that merchants can now rip them off with near impunity. Immunity from theft is not enough. Irreversibility, combined with volatility, ensures that bitcoin still will never see wide adoption.

Bitcoin’s irreversibility means that a bitcoin exchange can never accept credit cards or wire transfers to quickly provide bitcoins in significant quantities. These agencies must carefully audit customers, wait on any large purchases, and assign blame when attackers breach accounts. Any exchange that does not follow such precautions would be a magnet for fraud, and cease to exist once they start receiving chargebacks.

As a consequence, the only ways to quickly buy bitcoins require cash — again, I’m talking about convenience here which surely should be a feature of internet applied to money. This convenience can happen via a cash drop at a drugstore; a cash deposit into the exchange’s bank account; a face-to-face meetup; or at an actual ATM, complete with cameras and withdrawal limits. (The world’s first bitcoin ATM just went live a month ago in Canada. Incidentally, it takes cash, not ATM cards.)

Blacklists eliminate fungibility, which is essential for a currency.
And almost every bitcoin purchase needs to start with such a consuming, hastle-prone step if the buyer is unwilling to risk the wild swings in value that bitcoin experiences on a day-to-day basis. Since bitcoin has no stable value, the recipient should immediately go the other way. After all, if bitcoin’s volatility is desired by the merchant, they can just buy bitcoins independently. Instead, any sensible merchant receiving them will immediately turn them back into Dollars, Euros, or whatever local currency they need at a cost of roughly 1 percent. Which means the buyer first had to go the other way, turning dollars into bitcoins. Otherwise, the system would be out of balance.

Thus to actually buy something with the “digital currency of the future” — without having to wait, have funds predeposited at an exchange, or risk that one’s bitcoins drop in value — the buyer has to go to the bank, withdraw cash, turn it into bitcoins, and then spend it quickly.

The only way to quickly buy bitcoins requires cash: a consuming, hastle-prone step.
The need to go in person and withdraw cash conservatively costs the buyer 2 percent, as gas stations can charge over 2 percent to accept credit cards (and yet, people regularly use credit over cash). For reference, compare this to Square, which charges 2.75 percent to process credit cards. So even if you can conveniently get bitcoins from your local ATM — though we’re nowhere near there yet — a bitcoin transaction will cost the buyer and seller a combined 3 percent or more.

Even the much-vaunted international transfer use case doesn’t make sense here: A bitcoin transaction may be cheaper than a SWIFT wire transfer, but the cash requirement means it is not necessarily cheaper than Western Union. (To Mexico, it’s $8 plus a currency exchange fee. Europe is far more expensive, but that’s due to a lack of competition rather than something intrinsic.) If Western Union charges nearly double the currency conversion fee of a bitcoin exchange, it still comes out approximately the same since a foreign bitcoin transaction involves two currency exchanges rather than one.

Even at a 10 billion dollar market cap — the peak achieved by Beanie Babies in 1999 — bitcoin is almost irrelevant in financial terms.
Bitcoin therefore only works for merchants who face substantial chargebacks but who can’t say “pay cash”, are selling to bitcoin believers willing to pay the premium price to use bitcoins, or want to conduct business that the credit card system blocks. Yet many of the transactions blocked by the credit card system — namely gambling, drugs, and crypto-extortion — are themselves illegal. In those cases, does it really make sense to use such an innately traceable currency with a permanent record? I think not. (You can bet that redandwhite, the “hitman” Dread Pirate Roberts allegedly hired, is going to be asking himself that question over the coming months.)

This is not to say that bitcoin won’t retain its price. After all, the greater-sucker theory of speculation can ensure a large price for a long period. As long as bitcoin believers can recruit enough new money to balance the newly mined-for-sale coins, the price may sustain itself indefinitely. And, in the greater scheme of things, bitcoin is small: even at a roughly 10 billion dollar market capitalization it is almost irrelevant in financial terms. This is probably roughly the peak market capitalization achieved by Beanie Babies in 1999.

There are indeed important and valuable ideas that exist in bitcoin’s design. But bitcoin itself? I believe its volatility and built-in irreversibility will doom it to the ash-heap of history.

Editor: Sonal Chokshi @smc90 http://www.wired.com/2013/11/

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August 08, 2015, 11:23:33 PM
 #158

^^^ this.

And one more: it is hard to learn. People have no "time" to learn new things and they dont see real advantages in bitcoin. The fact that we see them, isnt enough; we need the masses if we want bitcoin as a huge market.

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August 09, 2015, 12:27:32 AM
 #159

^^^ this.

And one more: it is hard to learn. People have no "time" to learn new things and they dont see real advantages in bitcoin. The fact that we see them, isnt enough; we need the masses if we want bitcoin as a huge market.

Nothing is hard to learn, with perseverance and will to learn, nothing is really hard to learn. Humans have been learning since they were apes, they have taken control of their bodies and evolved in order to suit their environments. Humans havebeen accustomed to change all the time, after all, the only thing inevitable in this world is change. I am sure people will evolve economically, and bitcoin is the victory line here.
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August 14, 2015, 09:12:12 AM
 #160

If you have a cash then your like a king. But if you have bitcoins you only do limited things as of now. So choose only certain portion of bitcoins only as a investments.
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