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Author Topic: Nefario GLBSE  (Read 28552 times)
Bitcoin Oz
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September 25, 2012, 04:28:24 AM
 #141

Question...  What would Nefario have gained by a deliberate lie?
He gained not having to pay back the people who bought "GLBSE" shares on his exchange as a result of his screw-up. He also gained transaction fees on the GLBSE asset. (Also, the trust of the community by virtue of "doing the right thing", which would make it rather appropriate if he lost that trust again after it turned out he couldn't actually fulfil his generous offer.)

Arguably you're asking the wrong question though. Perhaps what you should be asking is what others lost as a result of his actions - how much direct financial loss did Goat and the other holders of "GLBSE" suffer as a result of sinking Bitcoins into something that turned out to be worth far less than he claimed.




No one is talking about the loss glbse shareholders suffered as a result of the creation of a fake asset.

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September 25, 2012, 08:19:28 AM
 #142

That asset was listed on the GLBSE assets page for MONTHS. There was ample time to remove it if it was a scam asset. All shares purchase should be honored by the current shareholders of GLBSE, or the whole lot of them are scammers in my book.

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September 25, 2012, 08:53:20 AM
 #143

An offer does not constitute a contract, and would require shareholder approval before it could go through. Nothing violated.
I'm afraid that's not true because in this case, there is detrimental reliance sufficient to create promissory estoppel.

"A promise which the promisor should reasonably expect to induce action or forbearance on the part of the promisee or a third person and which does induce such action or forbearance is binding if injustice can be avoided only by enforcement of the promise. The remedy granted for breach may be limited as justice requires." -- Second Restatement of Contracts

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Promissory+Estoppel
"Certain elements must be established to invoke promissory estoppel. A promisor—one who makes a promise—makes a gratuitous promise that he should reasonably have expected to induce action or forbearance of a definite and substantial character on the part of the promisee—one to whom a promise has been made. The promisee justifiably relies on the promise. A substantial detriment—that is, an economic loss—ensues to the promisee from action or forbearance. Injustice can be avoided only by enforcing the promise.
A majority of courts apply the doctrine to any situation in which all of these elements are present."

It appears in this case, a promise was made. The promise was relied upon to the detriment of those who relied on it. This reliance was foreseeable and should have been reasonably expected to increase the value of the outstanding shares. However, what the consequences of this should be is a closer question. Enforcing the promise would mean that the promisor would be liable for damages for breach of the promise.

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September 25, 2012, 10:02:38 AM
 #144

Goat:

GLBSE is a startup and always when you start something new some mistakes are made.

I take it you did even make a huge Profit (in %) trading these shares so on the contrary to the people who bought this shares from you, no financial damage was done to you.

I don't here the people who where damaged by this scam complaining.

Couldn't you just call this a mistake and leave it be?

Must you really fight this to the bitter end? This whole thing has already escalated to much.

Just think for a moment of the possible outcomes if you go through with this to the bitter end:

  • Nefario gives in --> You can keep you shares, but trading gets frozen and a warning added that this are not real GLBSE shares (so no naive noob buys them
  • Nefario "wins" --> You loose you shares and get nothing
  • You "win" --> Nefario gets a Scammer tag, you still get nothing, but you destroyed the most promising BTC Stock exchange

(I now I'm overdrawing a little)

Or you just give in and walk out of this with a profit, whats the harm in that?

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September 25, 2012, 10:04:12 AM
 #145

Nefario on GLBSE took over an asset called "GLBSE" that he assumed was a scam. He then let this stock trade and said that they would become valid GLBSE stock. He let this stock trade over 10 BTC each. GLBSE profited form the sale of these stocks because of commissions collected.

Nefario has the option to trade his real valid GLBSE stock for the "fake" GLBSE stock he said he would make good but he is now going to do a force by back of the shares for .1 BTC. That is less than 1% for what they were trading for.

Could someone confirm that (upper quote?)?
Especialy Nefario isn't above true? or there is sth. important missing?


Because if it is true I have to agre with the other part:
Anyone wouldn't?

I bought and held GLBSE and invested my time in GLBSE because I was told that I was a part owner. I was tricked, cheated and more or less scammed.


Nefario could trade me his real stock but refuses to do so and will just steal my GLBSE assets with out my consent.


If you make good on your word and trade me real GLBSE stock you will keep your word. If you "force" me to sell you will be stealing my asset.

 


I am trying to understand what is going on with this but am having a difficult time deciphering the problem.

So there was to be a GLBSE asset that was going to be nefario's and people bought shares, but now it is being said that the GLBSE listing was actually fake?

Now nefario won't use his omnipotent powers of TOS rules or "vetting" to correct the situation, but is instead saying that he can't make changes because of voting? Is this for voting on the "fake" GLBSE or for the real one? Is there a "real" GLBSE listing? Is the "fake" listing still active?

No none of that is correct.  GLBSE has never been publicly traded.  Foolishly nefario never blocked the ticker symbol GLBSE.  Another scammer, registered a contract under the ticker GLBSE and sold about 30 BTC worth of shares before it was delisted.   At this point neither the fake listing nor the real GLBSE shares are available for trade.   Anyone who had fake GLBSE shares at the point it was delisted has them in their accont.  They can be transfered to another account. 

Goat has some (? number) of shares of the fake stock.  He knew they were the fake stock when he bought them, he knows they are the fake stock now.  He ripped off other users selling what he knew was fake stock for 10 BTC a share (a 10,000% profit for himself).  Nefario has said the fake GLBSE shares will be removed from everyone's accounts and they will be given the IPO price (0.1 BTC).  Goat (the only scammer in the thread) calls that a scam.

You mised that than in the meantime Goat was told that fake shares will be real.
And that makes you making mess here and trying to make mess.


(...) Nefario has said the fake GLBSE shares will be removed from everyone's accounts and they will be given the IPO price (0.1 BTC). (...)

Personally, paying 0.1 is too much for them, it's like rewarding exploiters. Even after Nefario told those were fake shares, there are still individuals wanting to exploit his good-will for maximum profit. Incredible!

Just human.

There was some huge mistake and not by Goat but by Nefario, and now you are saying that using someones mistakes is what?


I don't really understand where the debate is. Because Nefario doesn't have the authority to honor his word means that he is 'all good'?

My understanding:

He acknowledged the shares were fake, but agreed to 'honor' them, making them real GLBSE stock

Goat then buys it, thinking that it will become real stock

Nefario cannot make it stock, because he assumed he had more power than he did. Obviously, he could have known he cannot just 'make more stock'

Now to clean it all up, the fake, but then real, but now fake again stock is being bought back for the initial IPO listing price?


However, at the same time, I feel that if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. It would be like going to a car dealership and being offered a price that is too low. Being told You are paying $$$$, but the contract says $$$$$. Would the dealership be a 'scammer'?
Obviously yes.

+1 because of that


Nefario didnt scam the people Goat sold the shares to for 10btc. Goat scammed them.

Did he lay anyone?
So he didn't scam anyone.

If someone laying and even do not try to come true his lays, than he is scamer.


Nefario didnt scam the people Goat sold the shares to for 10btc. Goat scammed them.

This seems to be an unfounded accusation.  Do you have some evidence that he acted in less than good faith?

If Goat had inside information that the Nefario would not honor his word, but that information wasn't also available to the people he sold them to, I could see it.  But your dislike of profit doesn't seem sufficient.

It's about reasonable expectation.  Goat knew damn well, there was never a reasonable expectation for the fake shares to be worth that. The fact he convinced others of that value changes nothing.

And the damn GLBSE ticker shold ahve been fuggin frozen 7 months ago when this was first talked about...

I will agree with that. It allowed Goat to take advantage of people.

So can't you blame Goat that he used that.
He used people according to rules.
And rules are more important than someone losses.



Goat might be a douche for wanting Nefario to buy them for 10 BTC each, but that doesn't make him a scammer, and more than Nefario's mistaken statement about honoring them makes him a scammer.


Well said and true for me.


The issue is a voluntary buyback doesn't resolve the issue of people like Goat committing fraud in the future trying to sell the worthless shares for 10, 100, 1,000 BTC, and then the people saying why didn't GLBSE prevent this.  This all came up again when there was a thread where people were once again attempted to unload the worthless shares.

Meh.  Just re-list them, with a big notice on the details page that they are only collectors items with no inherent value, and not actual shares in any company, certainly not in the exchange itself.  Then when GLBSE goes public, they can take the ticker GLBSE2, as a history lesson, and a reminder that mistakes can have long lasting and far reaching consequences.

Many of us that are involved with bitcoin are doing so because we find depriving people of their rightful property distasteful.  GLBSE should consider very carefully what messages they want to send to their customers.  Some of us are already uncomfortable that all shares are held in street name.  Well, worse than street name, actually, since a single entity is acting as both brokerage and exchange.  This is an opportunity to show that GLBSE respects the ownership of the properties that it is custodian of, even when it hurts.

Also, love your loaded phrasing.  Classic.


You may not do anything legally wrong here.

But  you proof again that it is very dangerous to do business with you.

You show that if business doesn't work out the way you expected you will search for every possible loophole to screw you business partner.

Showing this kind of behavior may be the deathblow to your already damaged reputation.

Brutal true - I would prefer to do business with Goat rather than with Nefario, because he is brutal, and do not lay.
It,s just Nefario is the person who want to cheat because he want to take profit (by not giving his shares as the only honest solution exists now (including talking other shareholders to let him do that))



I didn't mean that Goat doesn't honor his contract. I mean the opposite. Goat takes contacts and even things said to a level where it just isn't reasonable by common sense anymore.

Just see this thread, or the thread where he tries to get shares on bitcoin magazine.

That's all I meant. I'm still confident that goat will honor all his contracts. I would be carefully if I deal directly with him, or if he would be shareholder of my business, though.

You should be carrefoul when you deal with anyone, rather than to behave as Nefario.
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September 25, 2012, 10:06:32 AM
 #146

What were the exact words he said when he made the listing "legitimate"?

I would have to look it up but there are many people who know Nefario said he would make them "legitimate". Nefario even admitted it in this thread.

Humor us and post quotes/links.

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September 25, 2012, 10:17:51 AM
 #147

You might not be up to date but Nefario delisted all of my assets, closed my GLBSE account, took my shares and has my BTC.

if he keeps your btc thats simply stealing and he deserves a scammer tag.

but: i dont believe he plan to keep them. nefario sometimes acts a little strange but i am sure he wont steal.
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September 25, 2012, 10:20:56 AM
 #148

An offer does not constitute a contract, and would require shareholder approval before it could go through. Nothing violated.
I'm afraid that's not true because in this case, there is detrimental reliance sufficient to create promissory estoppel.

"A promise which the promisor should reasonably expect to induce action or forbearance on the part of the promisee or a third person and which does induce such action or forbearance is binding if injustice can be avoided only by enforcement of the promise. The remedy granted for breach may be limited as justice requires." -- Second Restatement of Contracts

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Promissory+Estoppel
"Certain elements must be established to invoke promissory estoppel. A promisor—one who makes a promise—makes a gratuitous promise that he should reasonably have expected to induce action or forbearance of a definite and substantial character on the part of the promisee—one to whom a promise has been made. The promisee justifiably relies on the promise. A substantial detriment—that is, an economic loss—ensues to the promisee from action or forbearance. Injustice can be avoided only by enforcing the promise.
A majority of courts apply the doctrine to any situation in which all of these elements are present."

It appears in this case, a promise was made. The promise was relied upon to the detriment of those who relied on it. This reliance was foreseeable and should have been reasonably expected to increase the value of the outstanding shares. However, what the consequences of this should be is a closer question. Enforcing the promise would mean that the promisor would be liable for damages for breach of the promise.

This'd seem to run against the shield-not-sword doctrine tho.

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September 25, 2012, 10:22:40 AM
 #149

Goat:

GLBSE is a startup and always when you start something new some mistakes are made.

I take it you did even make a huge Profit (in %) trading these shares so on the contrary to the people who bought this shares from you, no financial damage was done to you.

I don't here the people who where damaged by this scam complaining.

Couldn't you just call this a mistake and leave it be?

Must you really fight this to the bitter end? This whole thing has already escalated to much.

Just think for a moment of the possible outcomes if you go through with this to the bitter end:

  • Nefario gives in --> You can keep you shares, but trading gets frozen and a warning added that this are not real GLBSE shares (so no naive noob buys them
  • Nefario "wins" --> You loose you shares and get nothing
  • You "win" --> Nefario gets a Scammer tag, you still get nothing, but you destroyed the most promising BTC Stock exchange

(I now I'm overdrawing a little)

Or you just give in and walk out of this with a profit, whats the harm in that?

You might not be up to date but Nefario delisted all of my assets, closed my GLBSE account, took my shares and has my BTC.

That's what I meant when I said: "This whole thing has already escalated to much."

I takes you both to deescalate this, but you have started this and I think its up to you to take the first step.

This will only work out if both of you swallow their pride and work towards an agreement you could both live with.

Of Nefario I got the impression that he would do so (I could be wrong of course).

Just as Note: You have reached a compromise if both partys are unsatisfied with the solution.

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September 25, 2012, 11:17:33 AM
 #150

Goat:

GLBSE is a startup and always when you start something new some mistakes are made.

I take it you did even make a huge Profit (in %) trading these shares so on the contrary to the people who bought this shares from you, no financial damage was done to you.

I don't here the people who where damaged by this scam complaining.

Couldn't you just call this a mistake and leave it be?

Must you really fight this to the bitter end? This whole thing has already escalated to much.

Just think for a moment of the possible outcomes if you go through with this to the bitter end:

  • Nefario gives in --> You can keep you shares, but trading gets frozen and a warning added that this are not real GLBSE shares (so no naive noob buys them
  • Nefario "wins" --> You loose you shares and get nothing
  • You "win" --> Nefario gets a Scammer tag, you still get nothing, but you destroyed the most promising BTC Stock exchange

(I now I'm overdrawing a little)

Or you just give in and walk out of this with a profit, whats the harm in that?

You might not be up to date but Nefario delisted all of my assets, closed my GLBSE account, took my shares and has my BTC.

That's what I meant when I said: "This whole thing has already escalated to much."

I takes you both to deescalate this, but you have started this and I think its up to you to take the first step.

This will only work out if both of you swallow their pride and work towards an agreement you could both live with.

Of Nefario I got the impression that he would do so (I could be wrong of course).

Just as Note: You have reached a compromise if both partys are unsatisfied with the solution.

Why didn't you listed:
  • Nefario gives in --> You can keep you shares, he get other shareholders let him giv his shares in exchange to fake shares to make his words true



But what the hell haw could and why he closed Goat account?
Now I'm afraid of my account to and my shares and BTC.
Should I redeem that?
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September 25, 2012, 11:29:09 AM
 #151

Aww, doesn't it just suck when karma bites you on the ass? Goat, you had it coming, if in fact this is what has happened. Guess advise from counsel was to swat the little irritating mosquito. Bummer to be you, huh?
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September 25, 2012, 11:38:04 AM
 #152

An offer does not constitute a contract, and would require shareholder approval before it could go through. Nothing violated.
I'm afraid that's not true because in this case, there is detrimental reliance sufficient to create promissory estoppel.

"A promise which the promisor should reasonably expect to induce action or forbearance on the part of the promisee or a third person and which does induce such action or forbearance is binding if injustice can be avoided only by enforcement of the promise. The remedy granted for breach may be limited as justice requires." -- Second Restatement of Contracts

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Promissory+Estoppel
"Certain elements must be established to invoke promissory estoppel. A promisor—one who makes a promise—makes a gratuitous promise that he should reasonably have expected to induce action or forbearance of a definite and substantial character on the part of the promisee—one to whom a promise has been made. The promisee justifiably relies on the promise. A substantial detriment—that is, an economic loss—ensues to the promisee from action or forbearance. Injustice can be avoided only by enforcing the promise.
A majority of courts apply the doctrine to any situation in which all of these elements are present."

It appears in this case, a promise was made. The promise was relied upon to the detriment of those who relied on it. This reliance was foreseeable and should have been reasonably expected to increase the value of the outstanding shares. However, what the consequences of this should be is a closer question. Enforcing the promise would mean that the promisor would be liable for damages for breach of the promise.

This is why if nothing else I feel tricked, used and stolen from.

He thinks that by delisting all of my assets and destroying my GLBSE account he can just take my assets and BTC. That is just scammer...


Signed contract or it didn't happen.


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September 25, 2012, 11:45:39 AM
 #153

An offer does not constitute a contract, and would require shareholder approval before it could go through. Nothing violated.
I'm afraid that's not true because in this case, there is detrimental reliance sufficient to create promissory estoppel.

"A promise which the promisor should reasonably expect to induce action or forbearance on the part of the promisee or a third person and which does induce such action or forbearance is binding if injustice can be avoided only by enforcement of the promise. The remedy granted for breach may be limited as justice requires." -- Second Restatement of Contracts

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Promissory+Estoppel
"Certain elements must be established to invoke promissory estoppel. A promisor—one who makes a promise—makes a gratuitous promise that he should reasonably have expected to induce action or forbearance of a definite and substantial character on the part of the promisee—one to whom a promise has been made. The promisee justifiably relies on the promise. A substantial detriment—that is, an economic loss—ensues to the promisee from action or forbearance. Injustice can be avoided only by enforcing the promise.
A majority of courts apply the doctrine to any situation in which all of these elements are present."

It appears in this case, a promise was made. The promise was relied upon to the detriment of those who relied on it. This reliance was foreseeable and should have been reasonably expected to increase the value of the outstanding shares. However, what the consequences of this should be is a closer question. Enforcing the promise would mean that the promisor would be liable for damages for breach of the promise.

This is why if nothing else I feel tricked, used and stolen from.

He thinks that by delisting all of my assets and destroying my GLBSE account he can just take my assets and BTC. That is just scammer...


Signed contract or it didn't happen.



Maged and I have both asked him for links/quotes, but he won't for some reason. I wonder what that reason is.

Quoting my post since Goat seems to have missed it.

What were the exact words he said when he made the listing "legitimate"?

I would have to look it up but there are many people who know Nefario said he would make them "legitimate". Nefario even admitted it in this thread.

Humor us and post quotes/links.


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September 25, 2012, 11:54:40 AM
 #154

An offer does not constitute a contract, and would require shareholder approval before it could go through. Nothing violated.
I'm afraid that's not true because in this case, there is detrimental reliance sufficient to create promissory estoppel.

"A promise which the promisor should reasonably expect to induce action or forbearance on the part of the promisee or a third person and which does induce such action or forbearance is binding if injustice can be avoided only by enforcement of the promise. The remedy granted for breach may be limited as justice requires." -- Second Restatement of Contracts

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Promissory+Estoppel
"Certain elements must be established to invoke promissory estoppel. A promisor—one who makes a promise—makes a gratuitous promise that he should reasonably have expected to induce action or forbearance of a definite and substantial character on the part of the promisee—one to whom a promise has been made. The promisee justifiably relies on the promise. A substantial detriment—that is, an economic loss—ensues to the promisee from action or forbearance. Injustice can be avoided only by enforcing the promise.
A majority of courts apply the doctrine to any situation in which all of these elements are present."

It appears in this case, a promise was made. The promise was relied upon to the detriment of those who relied on it. This reliance was foreseeable and should have been reasonably expected to increase the value of the outstanding shares. However, what the consequences of this should be is a closer question. Enforcing the promise would mean that the promisor would be liable for damages for breach of the promise.

This is why if nothing else I feel tricked, used and stolen from.

He thinks that by delisting all of my assets and destroying my GLBSE account he can just take my assets and BTC. That is just scammer...


Signed contract or it didn't happen.



Maged and I have both asked him for links/quotes, but he won't for some reason. I wonder what that reason is.

Quoting my post since Goat seems to have missed it.

What were the exact words he said when he made the listing "legitimate"?

I would have to look it up but there are many people who know Nefario said he would make them "legitimate". Nefario even admitted it in this thread.

Humor us and post quotes/links.



Here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112071.20

The problem we currently have was caused by how I dealt with this. Failing to reserve the asset name GLBSE I felt had enabled it to happen. And I announced that those assets that were sold would be honored, at the time I thought I had the power to make this decision.
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September 25, 2012, 11:56:45 AM
 #155

Not that, the original quotes from the time it happened.

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September 25, 2012, 11:58:26 AM
 #156

Not that, the original quotes from the time it happened.

I'll look for it now, but how it is is it not enough that Nefario admitted that?! How's that?
Why now you doubt it?
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September 25, 2012, 12:02:31 PM
 #157

I'm not going to do anything based on your word, I want to see exactly what was said. The original agreement is very important when determining if the agreement was broken, I don't see how that is difficult to understand or why I have to explain it.

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September 25, 2012, 12:04:11 PM
 #158

I never said you would get more stock in the future, we did talk about you becoming a GLBSE investor but that came to nothing, you kept changing your mind and the accusing me of stuff.

See a doctor.



You said a deal would be made if I did not list on other exchanges. This was when you froze Kludges account and assets because you feared he would make a new stock exchange. But that is not the topic here.

You said you would force the sale of my property and that is theft. We all now this...

See a lawyer.

You said you'd think about it and never gave me an answer. Thats not a deal.

Thank you for admitting you made this offer. Now why did you think you could make that offer if you were bound by the GLBSE contract? Did you not understand the contract or did you just trick me?

An offer does not constitute a contract, and would require shareholder approval before it could go through. Nothing violated.

You never talked about depending on "share holder approval" in this case or when you claimed the GLBSE stock would be made good.

Saying there was no contract or keeping secret part of the deal does not give you the right to trick others to take actions, nor does it give you the right to take my property.


What is a "contract" anyway? Clearly you word is not your bond...




But you never got back to him agreeing to that. You waited till now to complain about it instead of doing the decent thing and sorting it out at the time the offer was made. You never agreed to terms of any binding contract and never bothered to find out the terms of being a glbse shareholder. You just assumed you could do whatever the fuck you wanted including selling shares for inflated prices when you had no right to do so.


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September 25, 2012, 12:07:28 PM
 #159

Not that, the original quotes from the time it happened.

I'll look for it now, but how it is is it not enough that Nefario admitted that?! How's that?
Why now you doubt it?

Goat never got back to him to agree to those terms.  Goat wants to give Nefario a scammer tag because he was too fucking lazy or ignorant to conclude the deal. There is no evidence that Goat agreed to anything just that Nefario made an offer.


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September 25, 2012, 12:08:49 PM
 #160

I'm not going to do anything based on your word, I want to see exactly what was said. The original agreement is very important when determining if the agreement was broken, I don't see how that is difficult to understand or why I have to explain it.

Actions Nefario has taken since he admitted to this should be clear enough. He stole my assets. That is black and white.

Anyway Maged has been contacted.



Did you ever agree to what Nefario offered ? You cant just ignore the offer and later say "we had a deal" when it wasnt one.

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