Got off the phone with the Guy from the S.E.C

[Cablez]

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.

Nice.....

[1714943455]

1714943455

[repentance]

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.

Now that's sig-worthy.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Fuck, I hope GLBSE can handle this one if shit hits the fan.

Its going to get ugly.

[repentance]

Fuck, I hope GLBSE can handle this one if shit hits the fan.

Its going to get ugly.

We've always known that sooner or later Bitcoin ventures would come under the scrutiny of US regulators.  If service operators didn't prepare for that inevitability, then they are fools.

[annette786]

I'm not familiar with UK compliance laws, but GLBSE is in clear violation of US laws.  I'm surprised how many of you are involved.  Don't worry, the SEC is here to protect unaccredited investors like yourselves.  They will do so by making your investments worthless.

[RB26DETT]

posting in a legendary thread.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Fuck, I hope GLBSE can handle this one if shit hits the fan.

Its going to get ugly.

We've always known that sooner or later Bitcoin ventures would come under the scrutiny of US regulators.  If service operators didn't prepare for that inevitability, then they are fools.

That being said,

if they make any sort of move against bitcoin they will cause a streisand effect.

[BitcoinINV]

I have talked with Nefario told him about what we discussed, and also expressed my concern with this. We face a problem, if the GLBSE goes legit, the U.K. will require people to disclose their identity. " I'm  not positive about this but it makes sense". Now the U.S.A says GLBSE is illegal, GLBSE requires identity,U.S. asks the U.K. to cooperate and now we are charged with securities fraud. We could not list or register under real names, which would make it impossible to have a validated I.D. thus making U.S. Businesses not able to post on the GLBSE.

[ronwan]

Quit calling Mommy and Daddy to settle disputes. Instead, why don't people learn to watch how they conduct business and be careful of who they conduct business with?

I just saw a Lecture where a guy was talking about the Jewish Diamond dealers and Cowboys selling cattle in the west today.  These businesses operate on trust and reputation alone.  If you go to the government to try to solve a dispute you are ostracized by the group.
I'm not sure of the details on the start of this thread but bringing in the Feds as it were might be a cure that is far worse than the disease.

 

[greyhawk]

I just saw a Lecture where a guy was talking about the Jewish Diamond dealers and Cowboys selling cattle in the west today.  These businesses operate on trust and reputation alone.  If you go to the government to try to solve a dispute you are ostracized by the group. 

As does the Mafia and the Triads.

I'm not sure how operating like criminal organizations helps Bitcoin.

[Cluster2k]

I'm not sure about the 'crying to mommy and daddy' business in seeking justice through official channels.  What other ways are there?  Giving someone a 'scammer' tag on a forum?  Scary.  Not trading with them any more?  They'll open a new account and scam away.

The alternative is vigilante justice and settling scores like less savoury sections of society. 

[Dalkore]

Quit calling Mommy and Daddy to settle disputes. Instead, why don't people learn to watch how they conduct business and be careful of who they conduct business with?

I just saw a Lecture where a guy was talking about the Jewish Diamond dealers and Cowboys selling cattle in the west today.  These businesses operate on trust and reputation alone.  If you go to the government to try to solve a dispute you are ostracized by the group.
I'm not sure of the details on the start of this thread but bringing in the Feds as it were might be a cure that is far worse than the disease.

 

Can you post a link to the lecture?  I would like to watch.

[Bitcoin Oz]

I'm not sure about the 'crying to mommy and daddy' business in seeking justice through official channels.  What other ways are there?  Giving someone a 'scammer' tag on a forum?  Scary.  Not trading with them any more?  They'll open a new account and scam away.

The alternative is vigilante justice and settling scores like less savoury sections of society. 

Pretty much.

[goodlord666]

Quit calling Mommy and Daddy to settle disputes. Instead, why don't people learn to watch how they conduct business and be careful of who they conduct business with?

I just saw a Lecture where a guy was talking about the Jewish Diamond dealers and Cowboys selling cattle in the west today.  These businesses operate on trust and reputation alone.  If you go to the government to try to solve a dispute you are ostracized by the group.
I'm not sure of the details on the start of this thread but bringing in the Feds as it were might be a cure that is far worse than the disease.

 

Interesting.

Also, why would government have jurisdiction over Bitcoin, and not Bitcoin over government?

After all, this is the early stages of a more advanced system over the old one.

[goodlord666]

Interesting.

Also, why would government have jurisdiction over Bitcoin, and not Bitcoin over government?

After all, this is the early stages of a more advanced system over the old one.

It can be used for laundering or getting out of taxes, as long as the exchange do there jobs they will not interfere with bitcoin. To be honest if they do anything to bitcoin, then Blizzard, and every other virtual currency should be shutdown as well.

<tongueincheek>

We should be taxing them.

</tongueincheek>

After all, they're running governments on our soil.

[marcus_of_augustus]

I'm not sure about the 'crying to mommy and daddy' business in seeking justice through official channels.  What other ways are there?  Giving someone a 'scammer' tag on a forum?  Scary.  Not trading with them any more?  They'll open a new account and scam away.

The alternative is vigilante justice and settling scores like less savoury sections of society. 

The boundaries are no longer so clear anymore since the governments have gotten increasingly criminalised with rorts like the MF Global robbery, the trillion dollar bankster bailouts, fraud-closure, SEC watching porn while Lehman bros crashed and untold fraud went by .... choose your "enforcers" carefully?

[CJGoodings]

Interesting.

Also, why would government have jurisdiction over Bitcoin, and not Bitcoin over government?

After all, this is the early stages of a more advanced system over the old one.

Because the government has become one giant corrupt organization, and they don't like it when others step in their ballpark and try to play their games.

According to an article about zeekrewards, what i got from it was that they wanted to save investors from "dramatic losses", so they closed shop and instead delivered to the investors "semi-dramatic losses". There was 0 recovery for investors as big badass uncle sam kept it all.

[repentance]

According to an article about zeekrewards, what i got from it was that they wanted to save investors from "dramatic losses", so they closed shop and instead delivered to the investors "semi-dramatic losses". There was 0 recovery for investors as big badass uncle sam kept it all.

There is currently ~$225 million of Zeek funds in domestic and foreign financial institutions.  The emergency order has frozen those assets so that the receiver can recover them and distribute them to investors.  The sheer number of customers and the huge number of affiliates means this is going to be complicated, but it's likely that the receiver will seek to claw back payments and go after the millions which were transferred to family members as well.

[Raoul Duke]

According to an article about zeekrewards, what i got from it was that they wanted to save investors from "dramatic losses", so they closed shop and instead delivered to the investors "semi-dramatic losses". There was 0 recovery for investors as big badass uncle sam kept it all.

There is currently ~$225 million of Zeek funds in domestic and foreign financial institutions.  The emergency order has frozen those assets so that the receiver can recover them and distribute them to investors.  The sheer number of customers and the huge number of affiliates means this is going to be complicated, but it's likely that the receiver will seek to claw back payments and go after the millions which were transferred to family members as well.

How much of those ~$225million will be left after the "authorities" take their cut?
I suppose as much as what will be left of Bitcoinica's funds after the liquidator takes his cut...

[repentance]

How much of those ~$225million will be left after the "authorities" take their cut?
I suppose as much as what will be left of Bitcoinica's funds after the liquidator takes his cut...

"The authorities" have already taken their cut.  He was fined $4 million.  There are over 1 million investors in Zeek and over 200,000 affiliates.  The amount of work it's going to take to begin unravelling it is astronomical.  Someone has to be paid to do that work and people would whine like babies if it's was team of government employees using tax-payer money in order to facilitate Mr Average America getting a refund of $5.

I'm pretty familiar with the NZ liquidation process.  If what we've been told is essentially true - that the MtGox intrusion caused a shortfall of about 30% in the amount of outstanding claims valued at the date Bitcoinica stopped operating but that a significant portion of the funds lost in the MtGox intrusion have been recovered - then the two key issues for liquidation will be adequacy of records and any preferential payments which were wrongly made. 

Preferential payments shouldn't be an issue if the value of Bitcoins has risen sufficiently to cover the outstanding claims (which were based on Bitcoin being valued at around ~USD 5).  Even if they become an issue, subordinating the claims of creditors who have received preferential payments is an option which the liquidator can use as an alternative to claw back and I've read case after case where NZ liquidators have chosen that option (sometimes in conjunction with demanding the return of an agreed portion of funds).

The biggest problem with the Bitcoinica liquidation is going to be the adequacy of records.  Tihan has indicated that Wendon intends to waive its right to be regarded as a secured creditor.  Under NZ law, Wendon would still be entitled to be treated as a preferential creditor due to its role in recovering the funds from the MtGox intrusion, but Tihan has given no indication that it intends to pursue such status or even that it intends to lodge a claim as an unsecured creditor (secured and preferential creditors can choose to waive that status and be treated as unsecured creditors). 

There are some wild cards regarding Bitcoinica and the adequacy of records is one of them.  It could make the process of validating claims time-consuming and costly.  But liquidators don't formally validate claims until they are ready to distribute funds, so there'll be a reasonable indication of the likely pay out by that point.  The existence of a currently unknown major creditor could also drastically reduce the return to users, but no-one has even hinted at the existence of such a creditor despite some pretty public slanging matches.

Bitcoinica users have far more reason to be optimistic about receiving some eventual pay out than Zeek Rewards "investors" do at this point.