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Question: Should we limit the number of active loans per user?
No. As long as he is paying.
Yes, max 1 active loan per user.
Yes, max 2 active loans per user.
Yes, max 3 active loans per user.
Yes, max 5 active loans per user.

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Author Topic: [ANN] BTCJam - Peer to Peer Bitcoin Lending  (Read 204902 times)
gweedo
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December 05, 2012, 09:06:58 PM
 #361

But maybe you need to take responsibility for not doing enough research on the people your loaning. I highly doubt ANY OTHER LOANING SITE WILL TAKE LEGAL ACTION ON BEHALF OF THERE USERS. I have yet to see this.

I don't know about all other loaning sites, but LendingClub.com will submit your default to credit agencies, ruining your credit score, and will transfer your loan to a collection agency, which will come after you hard. I believe that is what people expected BTCJam was going to do, based on them collecting credit report info, and claiming they will work to implement those types of actions too.

Lending Club is also registered with the SEC and probably has more power than a btcjam could ever have since SEC has no control over bitcoin currency.
Bitcoin addresses contain a checksum, so it is very unlikely that mistyping an address will cause you to lose money.
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SgtSpike
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December 05, 2012, 09:07:20 PM
 #362

But maybe you need to take responsibility for not doing enough research on the people your loaning. I highly doubt ANY OTHER LOANING SITE WILL TAKE LEGAL ACTION ON BEHALF OF THERE USERS. I have yet to see this.

I don't know about all other loaning sites, but LendingClub.com will submit your default to credit agencies, ruining your credit score, and will transfer your loan to a collection agency, which will come after you hard. I believe that is what people expected BTCJam was going to do, based on them collecting credit report info, and claiming they will work to implement those types of actions too.
Prosper.com does the same.

If BTCJam does indeed have the SSN and other pertinent information for given parties, they SHOULD submit the default to credit agencies and transfer the loan to a collection agency.  Doing nothing is admitting defeat to the scammers and the fraudsters.

Also, the BTC from loan requests on BTCJam should be sent via mail to verify that the requester is actually who he says he is (alternatively, a verification letter could be sent before the loan is funded if the requester wished to expedite the process).

It's so cut and dry, and a 40% fraud rate is exactly why these actions should have been taken from day 1.  I've been watching BTCJam with interest for a while now, but why this hasn't been done yet just boggles my mind.
gweedo
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December 05, 2012, 09:10:42 PM
 #363

There have been people that tried to take court actions with people who they have loaned bitcoins to, they were laughed out court. Do research it will help with your loaning as well Wink
I've been trying to find any records of people suing over anything bitcoin related, but I'm afraid that my Google-fu just isn't strong enough to come up with any loan disputes, let along any that have been laughed out of court (perhaps there are none in English?). I see some cases about coins that have been stolen and various other breaches of contract, but no loans.

Would you do me (and others) a favor and post a reference to one such case? I would be very interested in the reasons the judge ruled the contracts unenforceable.

Seconded. I'd like to think that I stay very well informed about all things Bitcoin, but I'm not aware of such cases either.

Search the forums, they are there (good exercises for you people who need to learn researching skills), remember US Courts can't forceable make someone repay a loan in other currencies. If I loan you 5 pounds of rice and you have to pay me in rice you can't send that to a collection agency.
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December 05, 2012, 09:17:56 PM
 #364

But maybe you need to take responsibility for not doing enough research on the people your loaning. I highly doubt ANY OTHER LOANING SITE WILL TAKE LEGAL ACTION ON BEHALF OF THERE USERS. I have yet to see this.

I don't know about all other loaning sites, but LendingClub.com will submit your default to credit agencies, ruining your credit score, and will transfer your loan to a collection agency, which will come after you hard. I believe that is what people expected BTCJam was going to do, based on them collecting credit report info, and claiming they will work to implement those types of actions too.
Prosper.com does the same.

If BTCJam does indeed have the SSN and other pertinent information for given parties, they SHOULD submit the default to credit agencies and transfer the loan to a collection agency.  Doing nothing is admitting defeat to the scammers and the fraudsters.

Also, the BTC from loan requests on BTCJam should be sent via mail to verify that the requester is actually who he says he is (alternatively, a verification letter could be sent before the loan is funded if the requester wished to expedite the process).

It's so cut and dry, and a 40% fraud rate is exactly why these actions should have been taken from day 1.  I've been watching BTCJam with interest for a while now, but why this hasn't been done yet just boggles my mind.

Where is collection agency that will take on stocks? Cause that is what bitcoin is, you have to take it at the current price but collection agencies don't take on those cases.

Also Prosper.com doesn't even state on there site what happens in a default situation, plus they say
Quote
All Prosper personal loans are unsecured, fully amortized personal loans.
Cause by the sound of this makes it sound like it is your RESPONSIBILITY
SgtSpike
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December 06, 2012, 12:28:13 AM
 #365

But maybe you need to take responsibility for not doing enough research on the people your loaning. I highly doubt ANY OTHER LOANING SITE WILL TAKE LEGAL ACTION ON BEHALF OF THERE USERS. I have yet to see this.

I don't know about all other loaning sites, but LendingClub.com will submit your default to credit agencies, ruining your credit score, and will transfer your loan to a collection agency, which will come after you hard. I believe that is what people expected BTCJam was going to do, based on them collecting credit report info, and claiming they will work to implement those types of actions too.
Prosper.com does the same.

If BTCJam does indeed have the SSN and other pertinent information for given parties, they SHOULD submit the default to credit agencies and transfer the loan to a collection agency.  Doing nothing is admitting defeat to the scammers and the fraudsters.

Also, the BTC from loan requests on BTCJam should be sent via mail to verify that the requester is actually who he says he is (alternatively, a verification letter could be sent before the loan is funded if the requester wished to expedite the process).

It's so cut and dry, and a 40% fraud rate is exactly why these actions should have been taken from day 1.  I've been watching BTCJam with interest for a while now, but why this hasn't been done yet just boggles my mind.

Where is collection agency that will take on stocks? Cause that is what bitcoin is, you have to take it at the current price but collection agencies don't take on those cases.

Also Prosper.com doesn't even state on there site what happens in a default situation, plus they say
Quote
All Prosper personal loans are unsecured, fully amortized personal loans.
Cause by the sound of this makes it sound like it is your RESPONSIBILITY
Good points.  I hadn't thought about collection agencies not wanting to deal with loans not denominated in USD.  So, what if loans specified on BTCJam were denominated in USD so that they could be submitted to a collection agency in the event of a default?

Last I had heard regarding prosper, is that they do work with a collection agency (or agencies) to attempt to recover on bad loans and charged a 10% fee on anything recovered (beyond the fee charged by the collection agency).  I don't have anything to back that up, that's just what I remember.  It could be that their policy has changed in that regard, or it could be that they don't widely publicize this fact because it's something they don't want their lenders to really think about.
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December 06, 2012, 12:40:48 AM
 #366

^^ Same for LendingClub; they submit loans to collections for a large fee.
Smoovious
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December 06, 2012, 01:10:33 AM
 #367

They could probably do it if they pegged the USD value at the time the loan went active and the BTC were disbursed. The do collections on the outstanding USD value...

It wouldn't be ideal, but it would be something... if you just think of BTC as the means of transferring the USD to the lendee, instead of as the currency, for the purpose of collections anyways.

(I really don't know the legal particulars about how those actions work tho)

-- Smoov
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December 06, 2012, 01:18:09 AM
 #368

The REAL big flaw with bitcoin... is the fact that it is pegged to the US$ and not to a basket of currencies.

BTC:1PCTzvkZUFuUF7DA6aMEVjBUUp35wN5JtF
Rassah
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December 06, 2012, 01:37:09 AM
 #369

The REAL big flaw with bitcoin... is the fact that it is pegged to the US$ and not to a basket of currencies.


It's not pegged to anything. It has a price in USD, CAD, EUR, YEN, GBP, RUB, and others though.
But you have a good point, it's not a US only thing. So, you really can't set it as some specific currency when collecting fee, especially if lender and borrower are in two different countries.
boonies4u
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December 06, 2012, 01:41:56 AM
 #370

The REAL big flaw with bitcoin... is the fact that it is pegged to the US$ and not to a basket of currencies.


It's funny how people can make nearly 200 posts here and still think things like that.
Smoovious
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December 06, 2012, 01:54:05 AM
 #371

The REAL big flaw with bitcoin... is the fact that it is pegged to the US$ and not to a basket of currencies.


It's not pegged to anything. It has a price in USD, CAD, EUR, YEN, GBP, RUB, and others though.
But you have a good point, it's not a US only thing. So, you really can't set it as some specific currency when collecting fee, especially if lender and borrower are in two different countries.
So you peg it in whatever currency/jurisdiction the defaulter happens to be in...

Sure, there are plenty of logistics problems... (and maybe BTCJam could at least show, in addition to showing that we have verified our address, to give us city/state/country, so we at least have some idea of the legal climate we'd be dealing with if we tried to collect, or even if the lendee is just local to us or not.)

-- Smoov
hardcore-fs
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December 06, 2012, 01:55:15 AM
 #372

The REAL big flaw with bitcoin... is the fact that it is pegged to the US$ and not to a basket of currencies.


It's funny how people can make nearly 200 posts here and still think things like that.

Great now you have spoiled my 'jolly for the day post' could you not have let it ride a little.......

BTC:1PCTzvkZUFuUF7DA6aMEVjBUUp35wN5JtF
gweedo
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December 06, 2012, 01:57:08 AM
 #373

The REAL big flaw with bitcoin... is the fact that it is pegged to the US$ and not to a basket of currencies.


It's funny how people can make nearly 200 posts here and still think things like that.

Great now you have spoiled my 'jolly for the day post'.......


LMAO someone needs to learn about currency exchanges and how back 1 btc = ~$13 doesn't mean it is tied to it.
ffcitatos
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December 06, 2012, 11:28:53 AM
 #374

There have been people that tried to take court actions with people who they have loaned bitcoins to, they were laughed out court. Do research it will help with your loaning as well Wink

gweedo, could you please give a link to any info having to do with bitcoin loans in courts? I admit I am an idiot and hence cannot find any info about that.
guruvan
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December 07, 2012, 05:13:00 PM
 #375

"pegged" has a very different meaning than what you seem to think.

When you say "bitcoin is pegged to the USD" you really mean "bitcoin's value is usually expressed in it's price in USD"

The value of a bitcoin does not fluctuate with the changing value of the USD. On the other hand, most "second-tier" national currencies in the world do fluctuate with the changing value of the dollar.

In the long run, it would be far more likely to see the USD pegged to the value of a bitcoin.....no...wait....predictions of hyperinflation in USD suggest it will collapse before that happens Wink

mrandy
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December 08, 2012, 07:24:16 PM
 #376

Tulkas, I've been unable to withdraw the available balance in my account for a while now.  It's not much - 0.52 btc - but I'm worried that BTCJam isn't allowing withdraws, and my support email (sent 10 days ago) seems to have disappeared.  Someone did suggest withdrawing a smaller amount to account for the transaction fee, which is a little weird, but whatever, I tried that and still get an error message from BTCJam every time.

Can you get the withdrawal working?  And you might want to look at your support emails, maybe they're getting marked as spam or something.
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December 08, 2012, 08:16:30 PM
 #377

Tulkas, I've been unable to withdraw the available balance in my account for a while now.  It's not much - 0.52 btc - but I'm worried that BTCJam isn't allowing withdraws, and my support email (sent 10 days ago) seems to have disappeared.  Someone did suggest withdrawing a smaller amount to account for the transaction fee, which is a little weird, but whatever, I tried that and still get an error message from BTCJam every time.

Can you get the withdrawal working?  And you might want to look at your support emails, maybe they're getting marked as spam or something.

Will check if there is something with your account.

PM sent.

BTCJAM - Peer to Peer Bitcoin Lending
https://btcjam.com
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December 09, 2012, 04:02:22 AM
 #378

I feel the reputation component is really missing from this. We either have to rely on trusting BTCJam that they actually have the personal credit score they say they do, and rely on them to pursue defaulters and their credit reputation for us, or rely on something like the OTC system, which isn't very robust of updateable. I think BTCJam is digging themselves into a corner with trying to stay so legal,  protecting themselves against lawsuits from the borrowers whose privacy they have to protect, at the expense of the lenders who are getting ripped off.
Is there a market for a third party, more reliable, and easier to use reputation tracking system?

Perhaps all we need is a voting system

based off bitcointalk messages

vote for someone yes or no, or just leave a specific comment

then hardline those into people's btcjam profiles

crude way but it would solve this temporary reputation problem

make users have to wait and gain a rep on bitcointalk first. (months, I know Wink )

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the hacks, the hacks, secure your bits!
ffcitatos
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December 09, 2012, 04:23:30 PM
 #379

Perhaps all we need is a voting system
based off bitcointalk messages
vote for someone yes or no, or just leave a specific comment
then hardline those into people's btcjam profiles
crude way but it would solve this temporary reputation problem
make users have to wait and gain a rep on bitcointalk first. (months, I know Wink )

But this has already been implemented: that is what bitcoin-otc.com web of trust is. The ratings come into btcjam.com profiles, too.
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December 09, 2012, 06:15:26 PM
 #380

Perhaps all we need is a voting system
based off bitcointalk messages
vote for someone yes or no, or just leave a specific comment
then hardline those into people's btcjam profiles
crude way but it would solve this temporary reputation problem
make users have to wait and gain a rep on bitcointalk first. (months, I know Wink )

But this has already been implemented: that is what bitcoin-otc.com web of trust is. The ratings come into btcjam.com profiles, too.

I mean notes that clearly say

"UserXYZ from bitcointalk leaves this message about this person: blah blah" or rates them 9/10 or whatever

Donations: 1JVhKjUKSjBd7fPXQJsBs5P3Yphk38AqPr - TIPS
the hacks, the hacks, secure your bits!
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