BFL Requests Input

[420]

what about the notion that bBASIC and Avalon also push back their dates

Funny thing is....
Avalon actually had pushed their date forward to a sooner release date. From February/March 2013 to January 2013. (Did you get that punch line?)

I am not sure what the original date for shipments was for the  bASIC.

In BFL's defense, they are doing Full Custom so that may be why they are taking more time.

bASIC hasn't really changed since they first said in September that it would be Nov/Dec
It's now the first week of Dec - so I guess you'd call that making the estimate more accurate - not moving it.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.msg1157524#msg1157524

but no one has delivered or showed working product so we don't know the actual ship/release dates...

[SLok]

Avalon stated january-february from the start afaik No one except bfl showed any proof of what is coming. Yet only bfl is questioned. Are the ones asking questions (the same and the same and the same) considered shills? Are their comments removed? Do the "neutral" mods start a topic to put all that "bfl drama" in? No.
Clowns without a ROI?

[kano]

what about the notion that bBASIC and Avalon also push back their dates

Funny thing is....
Avalon actually had pushed their date forward to a sooner release date. From February/March 2013 to January 2013. (Did you get that punch line?)

I am not sure what the original date for shipments was for the  bASIC.

In BFL's defense, they are doing Full Custom so that may be why they are taking more time.

bASIC hasn't really changed since they first said in September that it would be Nov/Dec
It's now the first week of Dec - so I guess you'd call that making the estimate more accurate - not moving it.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.msg1157524#msg1157524

but no one has delivered or showed working product so we don't know the actual ship/release dates...

... relevance?

[PuertoLibre]

Avalon stated january-february from the start afaik No one except bfl showed any proof of what is coming. Yet only bfl is questioned. Are the ones asking questions (the same and the same and the same) considered shills? Are their comments removed? Do the "neutral" mods start a topic to put all that "bfl drama" in? No.
Clowns without a ROI?

Fell free to copy, paste and modify these questions so they are suitable for Avalon and bASIC threads.

[BitSyncom]

I'm amazed by the delay between ASIC annoucement and expected release date of BFL vs bASIC and Avalon,

What is it roughly,  BFL ~9 month , Avalon ~4 month ... ?

I agree. It is baffling to me how BFL can start working on their ASIC so far ahead of their competitors, yet ship about the same time as them.

I made a late order (September) thinking that they would be shipping a month ago and that they'd already be through quite a few orders by now.

I am pretty disappointed in them and I wish I would of ordered from a different vendor, but it's a little too late now. I probably would of got my equipment 2-3 months earlier if I would of ordered from Tom at BTCFPGA.  

Maybe bASIC just announced it later and were working on it earlier without telling.

To be fair, we started working on ASICs before we announced our projects in private ( as did BFL and bASIC I'm sure), so that statement isn't exactly correct. What I dislike is the whole notion of announcing the earliest possible date of release with no regards to possible setbacks. The lack of project management skills and experience shocks me. Although apparently hype sells. Maybe I'll announce that Avalon ship in December after all.

what about the notion that bBASIC and Avalon also push back their dates

This statement is plain slander. We, Avalon has only reduced and moved ahead of our shipping schedule after eliminating the chances of potential problems that could arise. With that said, there is the possibility for us to deliver even earlier than Jan 14th.

[hardcore-fs]

Kano is a cgminer developer, so if delivery of ASICS is for first week of december and they will visit by the end of november, must have kano an ASIC for testing before visit? Will asics be delivered before mining software is tested? AS is said in my country this seams to be too much run

Visit have no sense for me, I though visit was for to calm people, check that BFL exist, facilities exist, and so on... But they won't visit until asics are almost to be delivered? a waste of money and time.

Regards

One "suspects" a massive rush..... get parts in, throw together a production line in less than 2 weeks? ,show the patsies.
Ship following week....
No photos, no visitors and all this with months to prepare.
Sorry but having run electronic production facilities with SMT I just don't see it.
HC

Me - patsy - no.
You - get a life - yes

We'll let you know how that experience of yours goes ...

I'll state the blatantly obvious: there's no point having photos or visitors before there is something to see
(major newsflash - cgminer needs hardware to run ...)
Once there is something to see, they will be wanting to ship it out ...
So oddly enough the two events will be close together ...........

My patsy comment related to  manufacturing experience

My "get a life" comment related to your lack of having one. Get one.
....

SMT machines just means that inexperienced production technicians  can make mistakes in bigger quantities at a faster rate, and it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your god like ability to "mine bitcoins"

HC

We'll see how much you know about how BFL is doing their production when it happens ...

I think It can safely be said, that you have just  shown how immature and unsuitable for the 'evaluation' role you really are.
It really is not worth my time trying to explain manufacturing principles or bathtub failures to such a person.

Live long and prosper.....
HC

[PuertoLibre]

@ BitSyncom (An Avalon Representative)

When did you start conception of the Avalon device?

[jjshabadoo]

I know that bASIC started almost a year ago.

Tom is just more conservative in what he does and did not want to announce anything until it was final or close to it.

Of course he got pushed around for not releasing power specs earlier, but he also didn't want them to be off. Since the way his product is being developed, he really won't know the true specs until he is putting the boards together and testing them.

The good thing is people will know the accurate power and get their board shortly thereafter.

[PuertoLibre]

To be fair, we started working on ASICs before we announced our projects in private ( as did BFL and bASIC I'm sure), so that statement isn't exactly correct. What I dislike is the whole notion of announcing the earliest possible date of release with no regards to possible setbacks. The lack of project management skills and experience shocks me. Although apparently hype sells. Maybe I'll announce that Avalon ship in December after all.

what about the notion that bBASIC and Avalon also push back their dates

This statement is plain slander. We, Avalon has only reduced and moved ahead of our shipping schedule after eliminating the chances of potential problems that could arise. With that said, there is the possibility for us to deliver even earlier than Jan 14th.

If Avalon ships in December, as does bASIC, that would be truly devastating to BFL if they have yet another delay. They would be the odd man out who is late to the game.

Lets hope they are lucky this Christmas.

[PuertoLibre]

@ All

By the way, BFL requests your input:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/324-Photos-of-PCBs-cases-and-heatsinks

Edit: Before they say "no", keep in mind they already said "yes" to this a long time ago.

[Inaba]

I know that bASIC started almost a year ago.

Tom is just more conservative in what he does and did not want to announce anything until it was final or close to it.

Of course he got pushed around for not releasing power specs earlier, but he also didn't want them to be off. Since the way his product is being developed, he really won't know the true specs until he is putting the boards together and testing them.

The good thing is people will know the accurate power and get their board shortly thereafter.

So you're saying the bASIC was started design a year ago, a full 6+ months BEFORE Tom was harping about how ASICs are bad for Bitcoin and people should be wary of them?  Really?

I eagerly await your justification of this post then:

I hope my prediction is wrong. I hope ASICs wont be used in a way where the Bitcoin devs have to take measures such as I described above, but it is certainly probable enough to where the community needs to identify it. I hope I dont have to come back in a year and say I told you so, only time will tell...

However... to anyone who believes this fallacy that BFL or any other corporate ASIC mining manufacturer is going to limit their sales in order to protect Bitcoin - you need to get over that.

Fallacy #2 ASICs will be cheap and plentiful for all to use and enjoy
yeah right!

The first Bitcoin mining ASICs that are mass produced (BFL singles ARE NOT ASIC they were Identified as XILINIX FPGA by ngzhang) are likely to be used and abused by its makers for massive mining profits, the first ASICs to be sold will be sold for thousands. The corporate entities that invest the money and time needed to create these chips are not going to just make them and give them away.

Fact #1 Right Now the only groups that can achieve access to Bitcoin mining ASICs are those with the money and connections to get them made

Fact #2 Last Summer difficulty and Bitcoin value SKYROCKETED purely on the backs of GPU mining - Can you IMAGINE what Bitcoin would be like now if only the Wealthy Had Access to GPU's in the Summer of 2011?

I built a 10 ghash mining farm (back when 10ghash was alot) little by little on the mining profits of one single 5870 purchased in the early spring of 2011. A lot of others in this community have gained similar or greater Bitcoin success because Bitcoin mining can empower even the most modest of Miners, this has changed a lot of the last year but its still realistic to some degree, a lot of you may think ASIC is your chance, everyone wants to be a (God I hate saying this) " Early adopter " right?



Like I said at the beginning of this rant ( ) I hope I am wrong, I really hope this horrible feeling about what I am hearing about certain people who are working on acquiring ASIC based Bitcoin mining is wrong, all I am asking anyone to do is keep your eyes and your mind open to whats really going on before you jump on the band wagon and support something for the wrong reasons.


I was one of the first people to be skeptical about BFL when they first came on the scene, and I admit I was wrong at that time about them, but this "FAQ" that encourages people to buy BFL Singles now and not worry about ASIC later because they will give you a full trade in value? Its just another piece of this puzzle that makes me entirely too uneasy...

From a business stand point that makes absolutely zero sense....

...just food for thought and motivation to prove me wrong...  Enjoy!

[SLok]

Avalon stated january-february from the start afaik No one except bfl showed any proof of what is coming. Yet only bfl is questioned. Are the ones asking questions (the same and the same and the same) considered shills? Are their comments removed? Do the "neutral" mods start a topic to put all that "bfl drama" in? No.
Clowns without a ROI?

Fell free to copy, paste and modify these questions so they are suitable for Avalon and bASIC threads.

Come on, don't play dumb, you have seen what the simplest questions about product state of development or power usage did to those threads and the ones asking them. Why don't you dedicate one of your repetitive walls of text in one of those threads, and see if you can get the answers you ask for from BFL, from them too?

@ All

By the way, BFL requests your input:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/324-Photos-of-PCBs-cases-and-heatsinks

Edit: Before they say "no", keep in mind they already said "yes" to this a long time ago.

Quoting myself from your link:
"You may think your requests for pictures are legit, they are mostly naïve. Why are these questions only asked at BFL, no one is demanding them from the other asic mining equipment makers. Has anyone of you ever demanded pictures of parts or production lines from other announced products like laptops, or cars or i-phones, that you wanted?
Why did you order and prepay, at a time when the information was zero besides "we are going to make an asic", and are you now complaining that you are not being handed more than already is handed as information to you, imho a lot?
I mean, you had the balls to jump in back then, hold on to them. And don't pre-order more if you have doubts about BFL, won't matter much for your future orders as the time for release is pretty soon now."

[superfastkyle]

Why do you still believe bfl will release a fully custom asic. They think they are going to ship within a couple weeks of receiving their first chip. They more than likely are lying about either (a) having a full custom chip which also explains why they are being super secretive, or (b) are lying about shipping dates that are very far off to keep people from ordering from their competitors. I'm leaning towards them releasing an actual product eventually, which I wasn't even sure of before, and not an outright scam. But the idea of them releasing a fully custom chip that gets 1g/hash a watt with no prototype testing needed, no way!

Also if an asic chip is released by someone it will be mostly obsolete in a couple years

what about the notion that bBASIC and Avalon also push back their dates

Funny thing is....
Avalon actually had pushed their date forward to a sooner release date. From February/March 2013 to January 2013. (Did you get that punch line?)

I am not sure what the original date for shipments was for the  bASIC.

In BFL's defense, they are doing Full Custom so that may be why they are taking more time.

[PuertoLibre]

Avalon stated january-february from the start afaik No one except bfl showed any proof of what is coming. Yet only bfl is questioned. Are the ones asking questions (the same and the same and the same) considered shills? Are their comments removed? Do the "neutral" mods start a topic to put all that "bfl drama" in? No.
Clowns without a ROI?

Fell free to copy, paste and modify these questions so they are suitable for Avalon and bASIC threads.

Come on, don't play dumb, you have seen what the simplest questions about product state of development or power usage did to those threads and the ones asking them. Why don't you dedicate one of your repetitive walls of text in one of those threads, and see if you can get the answers you ask for from BFL, from them too?

I am telling you that you are free to post the same questions to the other vendors.

Unlike what you have asked of others, I am not trying to restrict you from doing so.

Is this about people "not asking" other vendors the same [hard] questions?

Or

Is this about how you feel about people "asking" BFL the hard questions...and you want that to stop.

----------------------------

Be clear with me on this and I will help you in that endeavor.

Are you after "equal treatment" of all vendors or do you want other people to stop asking difficult questions (to any or all vendors)?

When you give me a good indicator on this I will go with the flow. The results will probably be interesting.

@ All

By the way, BFL requests your input:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/324-Photos-of-PCBs-cases-and-heatsinks

Edit: Before they say "no", keep in mind they already said "yes" to this a long time ago.

Quoting myself from your link:
"You may think your requests for pictures are legit, they are mostly naïve. Why are these questions only asked at BFL, no one is demanding them from the other asic mining equipment makers. Has anyone of you ever demanded pictures of parts or production lines from other announced products like laptops, or cars or i-phones, that you wanted?
Why did you order and prepay, at a time when the information was zero besides "we are going to make an asic", and are you now complaining that you are not being handed more than already is handed as information to you, imho a lot?
I mean, you had the balls to jump in back then, hold on to them. And don't pre-order more if you have doubts about BFL, won't matter much for your future orders as the time for release is pretty soon now."

I need a rough idea of what you seem to want others to do. If it is to promote equal treatment for all vendors or if you are only asking everyone to "stop asking" questions.

[BitSyncom]

@ BitSyncom (An Avalon Representative)

When did you start conception of the Avalon device?

conception? Well, ASIC was the logical next step after FPGAs, the concept of "talking" about the possibility of producing an ASIC started as early as March of this year. The actual process of R&D and simulations started around June/July I suppose.

For the future please keep Avalon based questions in the Avalon thread.

Avalon stated january-february from the start afaik No one except bfl showed any proof of what is coming. Yet only bfl is questioned. Are the ones asking questions (the same and the same and the same) considered shills? Are their comments removed? Do the "neutral" mods start a topic to put all that "bfl drama" in? No.
Clowns without a ROI?

Fell free to copy, paste and modify these questions so they are suitable for Avalon and bASIC threads.

Come on, don't play dumb, you have seen what the simplest questions about product state of development or power usage did to those threads and the ones asking them. Why don't you dedicate one of your repetitive walls of text in one of those threads, and see if you can get the answers you ask for from BFL, from them too?

What? Don't ask to ask questions. If you have questions you need answers regarding Avalon, please post them in our Development Status Thread.

[420]

This is supposed to be BFL's thread for a specific purpose

It's sad and cluttered to see all this bitching and moaning on here

[PuertoLibre]

Why do you still believe bfl will release a fully custom asic. They think they are going to ship within a couple weeks of receiving their first chip.

Because that is what they have stated publicly.

I am not a hardcore conspiracy theorist who believes there is "no BFL".

I believe they have a product. I believe they eventually will ship. Like other members though I have doubts on the "When" and which cutting of corners (if any) they took to get the products out in time.

Every indicator they have given is that they are behind schedule. (In my weird twisted [assisted clown like] mind).

They more than likely are lying about either (a) having a full custom chip which also explains why they are being super secretive, or (b) are lying about shipping dates that are very far off to keep people from ordering from their competitors.

At this time all we have are speculations. I may share some of that theory but not all of it.

I do believe they have made a Full Custom ASIC chip. I think they aren't going to make their "5th week target". I do believe they are not ready to ship. I believe they are telling the truth but they aren't possibly giving the whole picture of what is happening with their product.

As of the 25th one of their representatives stated they didn't yet have a working prototype. I find it kinda hard to believe that a month later they will be shipping for this reason.

I see that Kano and Yochdog are still waiting for the trip to inspect the facilities. So I suspect this means that (as their representative stated) there is nothing significant to see...ie it's not ready yet. (ETA 3 weeks from expected shipping).

I don't think they will (IMO) ship in volume, though I might be wrong. I expect they will have extra delays, try as hard as they might.

I believe them when they said they had some refraction issues at the Fab. When asked pointed questions about it....I believe they were roundabout as to what that may mean for their schedule.

There are many valid reasons why I think they will miss their target date. It is not any one single reference that convinces me of anything. It is a collection of points.

At best, I figure if they do ship in December, it will be low volumes. This is all speculation though.

I'm leaning towards them releasing an actual product eventually, which I wasn't even sure of before, and not an outright scam. But the idea of them releasing a fully custom chip that gets 1g/hash a watt with no prototype testing needed, no way!

It can be done, if you apply the right processes and technology, sure why not? Tom has come close and he is only at 90nm. I don't know about Avalon.

Also if an asic chip is released by someone it will be mostly obsolete in a couple years

That is invariably true of any released product.

Post note: I am not a "Kook" (nor a psycho or "a clown"). I have my (valid) reasons for speculating the way I do.

[SLok]

Avalon stated january-february from the start afaik No one except bfl showed any proof of what is coming. Yet only bfl is questioned. Are the ones asking questions (the same and the same and the same) considered shills? Are their comments removed? Do the "neutral" mods start a topic to put all that "bfl drama" in? No.
Clowns without a ROI?

Fell free to copy, paste and modify these questions so they are suitable for Avalon and bASIC threads.

Come on, don't play dumb, you have seen what the simplest questions about product state of development or power usage did to those threads and the ones asking them. Why don't you dedicate one of your repetitive walls of text in one of those threads, and see if you can get the answers you ask for from BFL, from them too?

I am telling you that you are free to post the same questions to the other vendors.

Unlike what you have asked of others, I am not trying to restrict you from doing so.

Is this about people "not asking" other vendors the same [hard] questions?

Or

Is this about how you feel about people "asking" BFL the hard questions...and you want that to stop.

----------------------------

Be clear with me on this and I will help you in that endeavor.

Are you after "equal treatment" of all vendors or do you want other people to stop asking difficult questions (to any or all vendors)?

When you give me a good indicator on this I will go with the flow. The results will probably be interesting.

@ All

By the way, BFL requests your input:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/324-Photos-of-PCBs-cases-and-heatsinks

Edit: Before they say "no", keep in mind they already said "yes" to this a long time ago.

Quoting myself from your link:
"You may think your requests for pictures are legit, they are mostly naïve. Why are these questions only asked at BFL, no one is demanding them from the other asic mining equipment makers. Has anyone of you ever demanded pictures of parts or production lines from other announced products like laptops, or cars or i-phones, that you wanted?
Why did you order and prepay, at a time when the information was zero besides "we are going to make an asic", and are you now complaining that you are not being handed more than already is handed as information to you, imho a lot?
I mean, you had the balls to jump in back then, hold on to them. And don't pre-order more if you have doubts about BFL, won't matter much for your future orders as the time for release is pretty soon now."

I need a rough idea of what you seem to want others to do. If it is to promote equal treatment for all vendors or if you are only asking everyone to "stop asking" questions.

Non of your 2 suggestions. I was asking for the same treatment for people asking questions like you do, when they ask similar questions regarding other vendors. Without the mods removing posts, using their moderator privileges to steer topics into the direction of their desire, without stepping in and ridiculizing people by crippling their comments, or calling them BFL shills. If you were treated by the same mods if your questions had the same tone towards btcfpga or the avalon project, you would be named and shamed as some BFL shill, or as Inaba's sock puppet.

And no, I don't have those questions for those other producers, as I understand it is pretty clear they don't have answers to them. It is quiet simple to understand that anything that can shed a light on the progress of their efforts will be put up by them at the second they have something to show.

@ BitSyncom (An Avalon Representative)

When did you start conception of the Avalon device?

conception? Well, ASIC was the logical next step after FPGAs, the concept of "talking" about the possibility of producing an ASIC started as early as March of this year. The actual process of R&D and simulations started around June/July I suppose.

For the future please keep Avalon based questions in the Avalon thread.

Avalon stated january-february from the start afaik No one except bfl showed any proof of what is coming. Yet only bfl is questioned. Are the ones asking questions (the same and the same and the same) considered shills? Are their comments removed? Do the "neutral" mods start a topic to put all that "bfl drama" in? No.
Clowns without a ROI?

Fell free to copy, paste and modify these questions so they are suitable for Avalon and bASIC threads.

Come on, don't play dumb, you have seen what the simplest questions about product state of development or power usage did to those threads and the ones asking them. Why don't you dedicate one of your repetitive walls of text in one of those threads, and see if you can get the answers you ask for from BFL, from them too?

What? Don't ask to ask questions. If you have questions you need answers regarding Avalon, please post them in our Development Status Thread.

Don't worry, if I have questions regarding your product, I will use your thread to ask them. But I don't have questions, I'm in no need to constantly want proof, then some more, then some more, and so on.

[molecular]

I have recently read parts of some of the BFL-related threads and I must say, if I was Josh I would've probably jumped from the balkony by now or died from a heart attack. I don't know how he copes with all the shit he has to handle.

I had a good 20 minute face time with him over a beer in London back in September and talked to him on other occasions there, too. I got the impression he's a really cool guy. Something about the way he knew he shouldn't drink more because he had all the work and meeting people the next day but still said: awwwright, fuck it, let's drink more with these guys.

As probably many people before me, I asked him all the hard questions, pretty directly, looking him straight in the eyes. "Are you guys a scam?", "Will you mine coins while testing?", "Why not?",.... After reflecting on his answers there were 2 options:

• BFL are very awesome bitcoin supporters, they love Bitcoin for the same reasons I love it and that's why they're doing this... they want bitcoin to succeed in the long run and see it change the world for the better (and make some money, of course)
• BFL are masterful long con scam artists and Josh a masterful lier.

I cannot know the answer, but my gut feeling says: it's the former option, 98% sure.

That's why I upgraded from 2 jalapenos to 1 mini single (or whatever it's called), fully aware that this was still a gamble (I ordered pretty late), but I wanted to get back into mining because it just feels so good to support the blockchain.

Just in case they'd turn out to be a scam, I congratulated Josh for pulling such an incredible long con. He put out a hearty laugh at that, no evil grin to be seen ;>.

This is just a description of my thoughts and feeling for entertainment purposes. This is not investment advice.

[Coinoisseur]

• BFL are very awesome bitcoin supporters, they love Bitcoin for the same reasons I love it and that's why they're doing this... they want bitcoin to succeed in the long run and see it change the world for the better (and make some money, of course)
• BFL are masterful long con scam artists and Josh a masterful lier.

You are excluding, Josh trusting inaccurate information being given by his bosses at BFL. (Not saying this is the case, just pointing out this is a possibility)