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Author Topic: Could Monero replace Bitcoin soon?  (Read 33715 times)
Anon136
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September 26, 2016, 12:15:59 AM
 #381


So if I use a blockchain address to command my wallet to execute a transaction, I also need to use that address to test the result. With obscured blockchains, this is not possible (because they were originally conceived of to transport fiat with a trusted party in the loop, not unbacked crypto). Thats why this is an obsolete archetype.


Wait. Are you under the impression that it is not possible to determine whether the monero you send has arrived on the address you intended for it to arrive on?

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
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September 26, 2016, 03:12:48 AM
 #382

I don't think that Monero would replace bitcoin any time soon. Monero would need the same amount of press coverage that bitcoin has right now considering that most stores may have not heard of it.
I agree with you and monero will be hard because, still there are another altcoins are like ETH and other coins. Monero still need much time, innovation, hard work from developer and loyality from comunity until monero replace bitcoin.
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September 26, 2016, 03:42:14 AM
 #383

until now nothing altcoin can replace and take over
positition bitcoin is number one cryptco coin number one volume transaction
because nothing altcoin support exchange to all exchanger and support all exchanger pair altcoin
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September 26, 2016, 06:08:10 AM
 #384


Your "balance on an exchange" has nothing to do with a cryptocurrency...it is holding IOU on a website.

Thanks, I understand that very well   Wink

That is exactly why symmetrical audits are required on a transaction - any transaction, be it an accounting package, a blockchain or a chemical plant mass balance because that tells you whether the problem lies in the IOU or in the blockchain.

Eh, the only thing that has "authority" is the block chain.  There are no IOU on a block chain.  And, as I explained several times, the "symmetrical audit" is a technique that allows verification if the "atomic elements of accountancy" are ACCOUNTS.  But the "atomic elements of accountancy" on a block chain are NOT accounts, but TRANSACTIONS.

The symmetrical auditing on "independent accounts" checks whether the account values have only changed by the existence of transactions.

If my atomic elements of accountancy are "accounts", then I have an account A, an account B and an account C, and the "correctness" (the check of balances) of this accountancy system comes down to verifying whether the changes in these values of A, B and C correspond to a set of TRANSACTIONS.

If at moment t1, A = 100, B = 10, and C = 40

and at moment t2, A = 50, B = 30 and C = 70

then the question is: does there exist a set of transactions, such that we can go from t1 to t2 ?

Here, such a set of transactions would be: {A -> 50 -> B} and {B -> 30 -> C}.  Note that this system is not unique.  We could also have set of transactions {A -> 50 -> C } and {C -> 20 -> B}

But at least there exist possible transactions that transform t1 into t2.  So the checking of the balances proves us that it is possible that correct transactions have made the situation of t1 evolve into t2.

However, with a block chain, we ALREADY HAVE the list of transactions, and the "accounts" are only derived quantities. So the "accountancy" on this DERIVED set of balances doesn't bring in anything.

Quote
So if I use a blockchain address to command my wallet to execute a transaction, I also need to use that address to test the result.

But that is not what happens on the block chain.  That is what your wallet software DISPLAYS you.  On the block chain, you don't have "an address with value on it".  On the block chain, you have unspend outputs, and your wallet is making the sum of those unspend outputs to display you what could be associated with that address.

Quote
With obscured blockchains, this is not possible

Of course it is possible.  If the transaction is accepted, you have "killed" one or more of your "unspend outputs" and your wallet software is not going to add them anymore.

dinofelis
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September 26, 2016, 08:53:05 AM
 #385

The flaw in this (encrypted blockchain) design isn’t in the technology which I accept works fine, it’s in the original design archetype. It is made to work like a bank account from the account holder’s perspective where you can only see” your stuff” and nobody else’s. But even that system has controls because there is a brokering party that DOES have access to a symmetric transaction audit and the account holder has recourse to that trusted party.

The irony in this is that you are the one erroneously taking crypto to be equivalent to bank accounts (which it ISN'T), and then accusing it of not being able to implement the accountancy of bank accounts (which is not needed).

YOU are the one talking about "balances" as if they were the atomic concepts in crypto, while they aren't, but they ARE in the world of bank accounts.  

You fail to see that what a bank account audit tries to establish, namely that the account changes are in agreement with a hypothetical list of transactions, while in crypto, one does the opposite, and STARTS from the list of transactions, to DERIVE, if you want to, some "balances".

There's of course no point to try to apply a test to those derived balances, to make sure that they can be derived from a list of transactions, because they HAVE BEEN DERIVED from a list of transactions in the first place !  So the test doesn't test anything that we didn't know already.

You seem not to be able to integrate these two notions that are fundamental to crypto:

1) the fundamental monetary aspect of crypto is "power/right to spend" (and not the "holdings in an account")

2) the fundamental accountancy unit is the transaction (and not the account)

Both these notions have to do with a single fundamental concept: the VALID TRANSACTION.

However, FROM this concept, one can (and wallet software does this) DERIVE the equivalent of the "holdings in an address".

As I said, it is *you* who fail to understand that this is the essence of a cryptocurrency, and the ironic thing is that you accuse others to make this failure to understand.

Crypto is NOT about accounts and balances.  It is about transactions and the power to make a valid transaction.

The need to have a valid transaction implies the fact that it has to spend a previous valid transaction output, or a valid creation.  There are different ways to check this ; one is the bitcoin way, with explicit traceability, another is using cryptographic proofs (ring signatures, or zero knowledge proofs) of validity.  These are just different ways to establish the validity of a transaction, and that's ALL THAT MATTERS.
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September 26, 2016, 01:38:48 PM
 #386


You're not only a liar, you're a moron. But here's one thing that no one can argue with - github itself doesn't lie. And it is a fact that the github commits you linked to, from Shen, were never in public use in any Monero release. The commits you linked to were specific to ringCT and ringCT+multisig. RingCT itself has only been merged into monero's master repository on August 24. Everything is spelled out in exactly the commits you referenced.

This is a direct quote from your blog:
Quote
We can see the Monero fix here on the 7th Feb:

https://github.com/ShenNoether/RingCT/commit/6640e808018bb47ea34fd112dbf2d2bef9c1156b
https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/commit/b215a98a749c452c0a0336ab4ee93b1d71df2e78

Then on the 11th Feb Shen Noether wrote this public blog: Broken Crypto in Shadowcash

Both of those commits are prototype ringCT code. Neither of those were ever in Monero's released code. RingCT code only went into Monero on August 24. The commit history is indisputable.

Your "not disputed facts" are completely false.


Where the hell have I lied?

I clearly stated the bug was first found in their "Alpha version of RingCT"

It doesn't matter that it didn't make it into production code, this is where the bug first came to light, it was in your own fucking code.

He fixed it and then wrote that atrocious public blog a few days later titled: Broken Crypto in Shadowcash.  Its very unprofessional behavior by "Shen Noether" and its clearly documented.

There is no defending that, and you are calling me a moron. 

And if you want an example of a bug that made it into production then here you go: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=632595.msg7987286#msg7987286
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September 26, 2016, 02:01:07 PM
Last edit: September 26, 2016, 02:11:17 PM by toknormal
 #387


Wait. Are you under the impression that it is not possible to determine whether the monero you send has arrived on the address you intended for it to arrive on?

I am implying that two parties should be able to use the same criteria to test the presence or absence of a balance at a given address, regardless of whether they hold a private key to that address or not.

That is a fundamental control which Bitcoin supports and is what supports a growth in shared consensus of the blockchain state.

It's not enough to have a ticket to say "your money arrived ok", since that is an uncontrolled test and isn't the one that the other party will be using. That asymmetry is the flaw in audibility.
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September 26, 2016, 02:19:21 PM
 #388


Wait. Are you under the impression that it is not possible to determine whether the monero you send has arrived on the address you intended for it to arrive on?

I am implying that two parties should be able to use the same criteria to test the presence or absence of a balance at a given address, regardless of whether they hold a private key to that address or not.

That is a fundamental control which Bitcoin supports and is what supports a growth in shared consensus of the blockchain state.

It's not enough to have a ticket to say "your money arrived ok", since that is an uncontrolled test and isn't the one that the other party will be using. That asymmetry is the flaw in audibility.

But again, the ticket that says "your money arrived OK" is the TRANSACTION you have on the block chain.  If you were the person paying, and hence broadcasting the transaction, for sure you know what the transaction is about, right ?  You made it yourself.  You can also verify whether your transaction  is accepted on the block chain.  Well, that SAME transaction is the thing that will be used by the person receiving the money to "augment its calculated balance".

If you put on the block chain {"I use my right to spend 5 coins to give them to A"} and you see that that transaction is accepted on the block chain, then you KNOW that A has gotten 5 coins more in his balance, because his balance calculation is going to include exactly that instruction to arrive at its final value.  So "your money arrived" whenever the transaction that tells so is accepted on the chain.

This is exactly the same with bitcoin.  The transaction {"I have an unspend output of 5 coins, and I give them to A"} is what will be used by the bitcoin core wallet to augment A's content with 5.  You don't have to do the explicit calculation.  If you give the instruction "add 5", you know that the balance increased with 5, because to find the balance, you're going to execute exactly that instruction.

The fundamental error you're making, is that you dissociate the transaction from the balance, as if "some banking authority" keeps the balance and that this authority might cheat.  But as there's no such authority, and balances are just the result of running over all valid transactions, the validity of the transaction implies the increase of the balance.  There is no meaning in "checking" this.

If I tell you: "whatever number you have in mind, add 5 to it", I do not have to check what number you had before, and what number you have now, to verify that it is 5 more.  I know that it is 5 more, because that's the instruction you have to execute.  If you "add 5 to a number", then it is unavoidable that that number is now 5 bigger than before.

 
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September 26, 2016, 03:38:07 PM
Last edit: September 26, 2016, 04:45:19 PM by toknormal
 #389


.....and you see that that transaction is accepted on the block chain, then you KNOW that A has gotten 5 coins more in his balance

No. You do not know.

Please read the section in this page called "Proving to a Third Party You Paid Someone".

Even if you remember to switch on "set store-tx-keys" and even if you go through the convoluted process of capturing the TX-ID and sending it to the receiving party, they can still claim whatever they like because you're using different tests to measure the success of the same transaction. In fact their test is the "control" on yours so it carries even more authority but you don't have access to it. I realise that should never happen, but thats the whole point of controls in systems engineering, finance or science - to change the "should" to "does".

Bitcoin and other transparent blockchains do not have this problem because they allow both parties access to the control.

Also, you do tend to make a great deal of assumptions in your reasoning if I may say so  Wink Anyone (of the millions of potential users of blockchains) could download a hacked wallet that gives them all the right smoke signals that their "transaction is accepted on the block chain" and yet still send the coins to the hackers address instead of the one they typed in, not send them at all or do any number of blockchain gymnastics that were not the ones commanded. It's true that even with weak, asymmetric transaction audits such as the ones supported by Monero this would eventually come up. But open blockchains ASSUME this is the case the whole time and give the party who is invoking the transaction access to a control balance to allow them to fully verify the action immediately.

The type of asymmetric verification used in obscured blockchains simply opens them up to a host of significant attack vectors and confidence-cratering scenarios, not least in the social engineering category even without having to resort to malfunctions, hacked wallets and programming.
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September 26, 2016, 04:19:02 PM
 #390

It can be happen that monero can be replace bitcoin but not now if bitcoin will be crash or down due to hack their blockchain data base. people will lead to convert into other altcoin and i think one of them is monero that can be replace bitcoins.. for now we enjoy that bitcoins still alive and active..

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September 26, 2016, 08:17:00 PM
 #391

Monero replace Bitcoin? I almost see every altcoin has that dream, but bitcoin is still and always the king. Monero will get zero chance to replace it, not to say "soon", lmao.
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September 26, 2016, 08:46:30 PM
 #392

Monero replace Bitcoin? I almost see every altcoin has that dream, but bitcoin is still and always the king. Monero will get zero chance to replace it, not to say "soon", lmao.
thats nonsense, you are right, monero will never have a possibility to replace bitcoins in the future

 
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September 26, 2016, 10:11:46 PM
 #393

Monero replace Bitcoin? I almost see every altcoin has that dream, but bitcoin is still and always the king. Monero will get zero chance to replace it, not to say "soon", lmao.
thats nonsense, you are right, monero will never have a possibility to replace bitcoins in the future

This thread will probably make me laugh someday, only because people thought the same EXACT thing about Netscape Navigator in the early days of the Internet.

Don't just discount the possibilities, btc is having severe growing pains. Monero is growing rapidly, and is faster and just as good as bitcoin. The fact that it doesn't have a fancy software GUI yet only brings more potential for growth and adoption.

This thread is basically a signature spamming stomping ground with a few good arguments here and there.

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September 26, 2016, 11:43:17 PM
 #394

Regardless of anyone's opinion, Monero has displaced bitcoin from a significant proportion of the DNM txns already, simply and obviously because it provides privacy which BTC can not.  I suspect RingCT will accelerate this trend of increasing displacement.

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.  Give a man a Poisson distribution and he eats at random times independent of one another, at a constant known rate.
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September 27, 2016, 12:12:49 AM
 #395

RingCT means that amounts of each transaction are also hidden?
Doing a search now but some of these papers discussing cryptography are way over my head.

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September 27, 2016, 12:19:19 AM
 #396

RingCT means that amounts of each transaction are also hidden?
Doing a search now but some of these papers discussing cryptography are way over my head.

More info here - https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3oi16k/ring_ct_for_monero_a_work_in_progress_comments/

edit -

[–]metamirror 5 points 11 months ago
Since the paper is too complex for me to understand, could someone explain how this would enhance Monero's functionality?
permalinkembedsavegive gold
[–]NobleSir[OP] 12 points 11 months ago
Amounts would now be hidden so your set of potential ring partners is much larger.

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September 27, 2016, 12:31:12 AM
 #397

Yeah Monero definitely has some really interesting things going on in terms of privacy.
Its no surprise that some of the darknet markets have started accepting it for payment.
I bought a bit of Monero and I really hope that it becomes more widely adopted.

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September 27, 2016, 12:48:26 AM
 #398

Yeah Monero definitely has some really interesting things going on in terms of privacy.
Its no surprise that some of the darknet markets have started accepting it for payment.
I bought a bit of Monero and I really hope that it becomes more widely adopted.

You just have to realize, it should be treated as a long term investment. These fools dumping in panic mode today based off whatever fud they heard lost a lot of money, and whales have profited as usual. same thing, diff day/coin.

Hodl gentlemenz. Cheesy

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September 27, 2016, 06:15:35 AM
Last edit: September 27, 2016, 07:39:46 AM by dinofelis
 #399


.....and you see that that transaction is accepted on the block chain, then you KNOW that A has gotten 5 coins more in his balance

No. You do not know.


Of course you know.  This is exactly the same as when you have paid cash or gold to someone.  You KNOW that he got it.  He knows it too.  He can deny it, but he knows he's lying (or has memory problems).  You can deny it too, that you paid him, but then you know that you're lying.  

What you are doing here, is requiring proof to a third party.  But the two involved parties know exactly how things went.  If I give you a $100 bill, I know you got it, and you know I gave it to you. That's the "balance check".  One of us, or both of us, can lie about it to a third party.  But that's something else.

That said, as you point out yourself, in Monero you CAN prove to the world that you did pay that person, while with cash, there's no such proof available.

But this has nothing to do with the discussion about checking whether the balances are right, that is to say, whether the balances are the result of a list of transactions.  Your initial statement is that *one cannot have the same credibility in the VALUE PROPOSITION of an obfuscated block chain rather than in an "open book" block chain* because one cannot "double check" the VALIDITY of the accounts by an audit.  You compared this to "banking accounts" that are audited by an army of accountants.

I indicated to you that the validity is essentially the verification that the accounts are the results of VALID TRANSACTIONS, and valid transactions are such that they ensure that they are right/power to spend by the payer, such that there will not be/hasn't been double spending, and that there is a succession of valid transactions that leads all the way back to a valid creation.  So essentially, a valid transaction comes down to a proof of no double spend, and legitimate origin.

The way VALID TRANSACTIONS are implemented in different monetary systems are varied but as much as these different systems are correct and trustworthy, one can rest assured of their validity.

With gold, it is the laws of nature that make for valid transactions.  The origin of gold is "open" in the monetary system of gold (it doesn't matter where it comes from: dug up, from space, produced with nuclear transformation, the Stone of Wisdom...).  Everybody has confidence that the laws of nature implement a correct transaction, that you cannot "double spend" gold and that holding gold gives you the right to spend it.

With cash, this is almost the same, except that the origin has to be a printer at the central bank.  If the bill is sufficiently sophisticated, and if one has faith in law enforcement killing off enough counterfeiters so that there isn't a big source of false bills, then the laws of nature, and a check on the bill are also a system that allows for the implementation of a correct transaction, the same way as gold.

Bank accounts are another beast all together.  The central notion is "a balance" and of course, balances do not necessarily implement correct transactions.  So an army of accountants is needed to check for that.  But that is because of the nature of bank accounts which are just balances, and do not follow automatically from transactions, although they should.  The balance holder can cheat (your bank can display what it wants, your exchange can display what it wants), and so this must be checked by accountants in such a way that you can trust them somehow.  This is in fact the weakest monetary system, but it is the one of banks.  People accept it most of the time, except in the Weimar Republic, in Zimbabwe, and a few other places where the monetary system lost trust (hyperinflation).

Bitcoin goes back to transactions.  The validity comes down by checking explicitly the succession of valid transactions and the validity of creation.  Double spending is checked by explicitly verifying that the spending didn't happen twice in the list of transactions.

Monero does about the same, except that the check is cryptographic instead of explicit.

As to the anonymity, the whole IDEA is that transactions are confidential between the payer and the payee.  Just as with gold and with cash, you cannot have both that this is public, and that this is confidential.  If it is confidential, of course you cannot check it when you are a third party, without agreement of the two parties.

But, as you yourself outlined, monero has some possibilities to prove to third parties the bad faith of one of the two confidential parties, contrary to gold or cash.

However, this doesn't put into doubt the validity of the monetary implementation, which is necessary to give credibility to the value of a right to spend in the system.  Otherwise, gold wouldn't have this either.
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September 27, 2016, 07:37:45 AM
 #400


I will give a longer reply later

Save it  Wink I think I might just understand controls in financial systems better than you do and you've written a small novel's worth of posts by now, all of them attempting to justify why they're not needed.

Pour yourself a beer instead.
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