Already delays in BFL shipment plans?

[fcmatt]

I never placed an order with any asic company cause i knew they had no idea when they would deliver. Avalon tho may have an edge due to being chinese. Dunno tho. Depends in contacts.

I will spend, perhaps, when some company actually has a real product that functions.  i do not trust. I have issues. I guess that is why i never used glcrapbse, gave pirate money, left money or btc on shitty bitcoin websites, etc...

[BitSyncom]

Can we move on to a conversation that has less angry, meaningless bickering.

Sure. So far every asic biz is off track except avalon. They get another month until we can flame them.

Yes yes, Maybe I'll announce we ship December 1^st, Then push it back to Jan 14^th and use the argument

LOOK! we are still less delayed than the competition!

But, I will not.

p.s.
Our promised shipping deadline for all 300 units is actually End of Feb, 2013 mostly due to unavoidable Chinese New Year. The current plan is to ship all 300 before Chinese New Year starts, however a small portion may not make it, but will be finished shipping before Feb ends.

So if you want to flame, you may have to wait until then

[PuertoLibre]

Can we move on to a conversation that has less angry, meaningless bickering.

Sure. So far every asic biz is off track except avalon. They get another month until we can flame them.

Yes yes, Maybe I'll announce we ship December 1^st, Then push it back to Jan 14^th and use the argument

LOOK! we are still less delayed than the competition!

But, I will not.

p.s.
Our promised shipping deadline for all 300 units is actually End of Feb, 2013 mostly due to unavoidable Chinese New Year. The current plan is to ship all 300 before Chinese New Year starts, however a small portion may not make it, but will be finished shipping before Feb ends.

So if you want to flame, you may have to wait until then

Something tells me the community will never get that chance...

[creativex]

Short on details and long on personal attacks. I got it Josh, thanks for all the clarification.

I think you know the definition, but let me give you an example (one of your more recent lies):

They're also going to work through turkey day to ensure the deadline is MET. ...well unless turkey day falls on thanksgiving this year...it *IS* a holiday afterall.

You also attributed that to me.

So you are the very definition of a liar.  I notice you just glossed over the fact that you were proven to be a liar, but hey... that's what liars do!

I attributed that to you, because you said this:

If there is work to be done on T-Day, we will be doing it. No turkey shall stand in the way of ASIC progress, this I promise you.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/258-bfl-%7C-asic-first-shipment-countdown-clock.html

You ARE also BFL_Josh are you not? Did you guys ship at the end of November as one of your many slipped shipping dates indicated? No? Remember at that time many thought you guys were closer to shipping products than you are now. There was no need to work on Turkey day because BFL didn't even have working ASIC chips on Thanksgiving, despite it being a month after your original shipping date, but that's 20/20 hindsight.

[Frizz23]

Oh, hey... since Tom is transparent, can you tell me how much power the bASIC is going to use?  No?  What about ... yadda yadda yadda ...

Always the same Inaba, always the same: "BFL sucks, but hey, Tom/Avalon/etc. suck more ...".
Very good Mr. BFL spokesperson, very good. Not.

[Unacceptable]

Short on details and long on personal attacks. I got it Josh, thanks for all the clarification.

I think you know the definition, but let me give you an example (one of your more recent lies):

They're also going to work through turkey day to ensure the deadline is MET. ...well unless turkey day falls on thanksgiving this year...it *IS* a holiday afterall.

You also attributed that to me.

So you are the very definition of a liar.  I notice you just glossed over the fact that you were proven to be a liar, but hey... that's what liars do!

I attributed that to you, because you said this:

If there is work to be done on T-Day, we will be doing it. No turkey shall stand in the way of ASIC progress, this I promise you.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/258-bfl-%7C-asic-first-shipment-countdown-clock.html

You ARE also BFL_Josh are you not? Did you guys ship at the end of November as one of your many slipped shipping dates indicated? No? Remember at that time many thought you guys were closer to shipping products than you are now. There was no need to work on Turkey day because BFL didn't even have working ASIC chips on Thanksgiving, despite it being a month after your original shipping date, but that's 20/20 hindsight.

Wow,you figured that out,no chips,no work on turkey day..............absolutely genius 

Bravo,good sir 

[Frizz23]

Wow,you figured that out,no chips,no work on turkey day..............absolutely genius 

At least more genius than the people at BFL - because they didn't seem to know that
 
Possibly because they were to busy playing Minecraft ...

[Askit2]

Trickiest thing in programing for new peeps.
If
{
Then
}
Else
{
}

So yeah If no chips
No work
Else work on turkey day......

I am happier that it sounds like the newest chips will have a better upper for heat transfer.
I do wish they where on their hopeful schedule. I accept that despite my order having the odd Jan 1, 2013 refund date I didn't pay too much attention to it. I also have not sat on here trolling BFL for the delays. I would rather BFL gave info faster but since some people actually just complain about anything I can see why they mostly cut ties with BCT. I know for some anything said has to be misquoted or at least taken out of context.

I would personally like to get information not Cablepair and others that could be working with him trolling his competition. bASIC started by trolling the competition so to say that BFL is bad because someone thinks the competition should get the same amount of red ass when they screw up I don't see that as a huge deal. Cablepair was trolling BFL when BFL announced its asic, long before cablepair announced his. bASIC seems to let about 0 information out about its chip. I can see the reason why the competition might want to point out that bASIC is a ?nm, ?w, Expected speed needs a different board so ?6? weeks. Without a hard power number what cooling will bASIC require hard to say.

So far BFL is over October by 4 weeks.... You would think by the bASIC fans that BFL was over by months. It hasn't been one whole month since the end of October. (maybe I forgot the exact wording but I was pretty sure the preorders only said expected delivery October). I wish BFL put information out faster. Then again since they get misqouted I can't imagine why they don't.

[creativex]

Short on details and long on personal attacks. I got it Josh, thanks for all the clarification.

I think you know the definition, but let me give you an example (one of your more recent lies):

They're also going to work through turkey day to ensure the deadline is MET. ...well unless turkey day falls on thanksgiving this year...it *IS* a holiday afterall.

You also attributed that to me.

So you are the very definition of a liar.  I notice you just glossed over the fact that you were proven to be a liar, but hey... that's what liars do!

I attributed that to you, because you said this:

If there is work to be done on T-Day, we will be doing it. No turkey shall stand in the way of ASIC progress, this I promise you.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/258-bfl-%7C-asic-first-shipment-countdown-clock.html

You ARE also BFL_Josh are you not? Did you guys ship at the end of November as one of your many slipped shipping dates indicated? No? Remember at that time many thought you guys were closer to shipping products than you are now. There was no need to work on Turkey day because BFL didn't even have working ASIC chips on Thanksgiving, despite it being a month after your original shipping date, but that's 20/20 hindsight.

Wow,you figured that out,no chips,no work on turkey day..............absolutely genius  

Bravo,good sir  

Thanks!

Seems you have no issue with this obvious deception from BFL? How were they ever going to ship in October or November when we now know they *STILL* don't even have a working ASIC chip?

Without a hard power number what cooling will bASIC require hard to say.

Nobody has hard power numbers. Both bASIC and Avalon have cited a range, because obviously they don't know what final power consumption will be. BFL on the other hand has said 1w/Gh. Doesn't matter if it's a Jally or a minirig, 1w/Gh. This is plainly not a hard number, as we know they neither have chips or boards to confirm this perfect power consumption symmetry across an entire product line. We do know that in the past, power consumption estimates, like shipping timelines from BFL, have been wildly optimistic and far from reality.

[Askit2]

I would bet the Jalapeno SHOULD be more efficient as you don't also turn a fan. Any power not directly running the hashing chip is wasted in the calculation. Then again actively cooled components can use some less power if they are running close to a thermal limit.

That having been said No I do not feel there was an obvoius deception from BFL. I had hoped for an early ship date. I didn't order promptly though and depending on how big the first run is I may do better or the same because of this. I didn't intend to use my cash for the upgrade. I paid with bitcoins I made with my a little over 6 weeks to ship single I received in may. The only "deception" I see is people not actually reading the whole agreement. I find it hard to blame a business over people apparently rampant illiteracy.

Lets look at it a different way. Lets say I am interested in watching Psych. It comes on after Monday Night Football. Now the NFL says the game should end before Psych starts. Somewhere along the lines more time is spent on instant replays and time outs plus the game is a real nail biter and goes into overtime. By the time the game is over the show I intended to watch that the NFL promised me would be on as scheduled is half over. Was I decieved? Personally NO. Many years ago before I realized that Political speaches, Football, Basketball, Hockey and other spots do not end on time reliably and no padding was ever put in of sufficient time to cover multiple overtimes and time outs or a prattling on elected official. Did I hope to get to watch the whole episode sure, but I didn't expect to get to.

I look at BFL actually in a better light then my example. They stated it wasn't late until January 2013. That seems like a hint. It could be as late as the first of next year. Do I think they tried to actually get everything together. Yes. Have I heard so far reasonable explinations for why a more complicated chip might be delayed. Yes. Do I personally think that their fabrication house will eventually get a chip that runs as well as BFL expects. Yes. The reason I look at BFL in a better light isn't that their hopeful finishing time was wrong, but because they actually gave a hopeful end date and a worst case scenerio type end. Sports and elected officals never give me the maximum time it could get to.

Could BFL run over January. Anything is possible. I think it is unlikely that they would. Then again in 3 weeks I may change my mind based on new(ish) information and a lack of time for another attempt.

As far as the working chip you really do seem to have the cart behind the horse as is proper. Expecting a fabrication house to put out a working chip in 3 months doesn't sound that unrealistic. July, to August, to September to October. At least I think the preorders started in June but even then I am leaving a month out just in case I am wrong. So by October whatever day they actually would have ordered in July they have had 3 whole months to spin up a chip, ship it, test it, and order a run of those. Maybe the timeline is a little tight but I can't imagine a 3 month backlog on a chip design. This is assuming they hadn't started the order before pre-orders started. I can't say they did try to get a chip fabbed up in time for a test shortly after preorders, so that wafers could be printed sooner.

Right now no ones numbers are really hard numbers, I would say though that if the process nodes of known chips are correct no one seems to think the power is out of the realm of possibility. bASIC seems to be shooting for a hardcopy setup and a larger size. If bASIC has a working prototype why don't they have a hard number from their prototype? My guess would be that bASIC doesn't want to quote their current numbers. It could be that they didn't bother measuring or that they don't care to release the information. At either rate I would take BFL's guess over nothing from bASIC.

[AndrewBUD]

How much hashrate is that $2168 going to buy you in December? Oh... that's right. Zero.  As expected.  Oh, hey... since Tom is transparent, can you tell me how much power the bASIC is going to use?  No?  What about ... well, can you tell me anything technical about the basic?  I mean, it WAS suppose to ship this week, right?  So there must be some technical specs floating around somewhere?  Some pictures?  A diagram or two?  Maybe the specs on the power connector, right?  Something?  Anything?  Transparent as mud!

Why does Tom scare you so much? Are you worried that even with his delays he'll ship before you?

Not sure how you get scared of out of that, but whatever you say!

Not sure how you can state these things when you guys are doing the exact same thing. You release possibilities...

[creativex]

I would bet the Jalapeno SHOULD be more efficient as you don't also turn a fan. Any power not directly running the hashing chip is wasted in the calculation. Then again actively cooled components can use some less power if they are running close to a thermal limit.

That having been said No I do not feel there was an obvoius deception from BFL. I had hoped for an early ship date. I didn't order promptly though and depending on how big the first run is I may do better or the same because of this. I didn't intend to use my cash for the upgrade. I paid with bitcoins I made with my a little over 6 weeks to ship single I received in may. The only "deception" I see is people not actually reading the whole agreement. I find it hard to blame a business over people apparently rampant illiteracy.

Lets look at it a different way. Lets say I am interested in watching Psych. It comes on after Monday Night Football. Now the NFL says the game should end before Psych starts. Somewhere along the lines more time is spent on instant replays and time outs plus the game is a real nail biter and goes into overtime. By the time the game is over the show I intended to watch that the NFL promised me would be on as scheduled is half over. Was I decieved? Personally NO. Many years ago before I realized that Political speaches, Football, Basketball, Hockey and other spots do not end on time reliably and no padding was ever put in of sufficient time to cover multiple overtimes and time outs or a prattling on elected official. Did I hope to get to watch the whole episode sure, but I didn't expect to get to.

I look at BFL actually in a better light then my example. They stated it wasn't late until January 2013. That seems like a hint. It could be as late as the first of next year. Do I think they tried to actually get everything together. Yes. Have I heard so far reasonable explinations for why a more complicated chip might be delayed. Yes. Do I personally think that their fabrication house will eventually get a chip that runs as well as BFL expects. Yes. The reason I look at BFL in a better light isn't that their hopeful finishing time was wrong, but because they actually gave a hopeful end date and a worst case scenerio type end. Sports and elected officals never give me the maximum time it could get to.

Could BFL run over January. Anything is possible. I think it is unlikely that they would. Then again in 3 weeks I may change my mind based on new(ish) information and a lack of time for another attempt.

As far as the working chip you really do seem to have the cart behind the horse as is proper. Expecting a fabrication house to put out a working chip in 3 months doesn't sound that unrealistic. July, to August, to September to October. At least I think the preorders started in June but even then I am leaving a month out just in case I am wrong. So by October whatever day they actually would have ordered in July they have had 3 whole months to spin up a chip, ship it, test it, and order a run of those. Maybe the timeline is a little tight but I can't imagine a 3 month backlog on a chip design. This is assuming they hadn't started the order before pre-orders started. I can't say they did try to get a chip fabbed up in time for a test shortly after preorders, so that wafers could be printed sooner.

Right now no ones numbers are really hard numbers, I would say though that if the process nodes of known chips are correct no one seems to think the power is out of the realm of possibility. bASIC seems to be shooting for a hardcopy setup and a larger size. If bASIC has a working prototype why don't they have a hard number from their prototype? My guess would be that bASIC doesn't want to quote their current numbers. It could be that they didn't bother measuring or that they don't care to release the information. At either rate I would take BFL's guess over nothing from bASIC.

I think you're very forgiving of BFL's consistent do-over shipping dates, but that's your prerogative. I find it more than a little disturbing that they announced a product for pre-order so early in the year, began taking money for said product, and yet here 6 months later still do not have the primary component to build that product. Even when they do have working chips which I believe the latest estimate was mid Dec, there's still board layout, firmware, optimizing, testing, etc. Consider Tom's situation, if his releases are to be believed he has the chips, and he was still forced to announce a month and a half delay, but BFL is going to get the chips in mid Dec and ship by Jan 1? That doesn't even pass cursory sniff tests.

Don't really understand all the bASIC doesn't release power info talk anymore. I did think Tom was being a bit too quiet on the subject, but he's since said 80-120 I believe. A good size range to be sure, but if you don't have a final board, and you're talking about increasing chips and hashes then a wide range is prudent. Assuming the power consumption is 120w for 72Gh, I got zero problems with that, just get the dang thing in a box and ship it to me. A single day hashing at current difficulty w/ 72Gh would likely pay me the difference between the single SC's power consumption costs and the bASIC01's for the entire year. Not to mention the huge disparity in $/Gh between these two competing gizmos.

[MrTeal]

I think you're very forgiving of BFL's consistent do-over shipping dates, but that's your prerogative. I find it more than a little disturbing that they announced a product for pre-order so early in the year, began taking money for said product, and yet here 6 months later still do not have the primary component to build that product. Even when they do have working chips which I believe the latest estimate was mid Dec, there's still board layout, firmware, optimizing, testing, etc. Consider Tom's situation, if his releases are to be believed he has the chips, and he was still forced to announce a month and a half delay, but BFL is going to get the chips in mid Dec and ship by Jan 1? That doesn't even pass cursory sniff tests.

Don't really understand all the bASIC doesn't release power info talk anymore. I did think Tom was being a bit too quiet on the subject, but he's since said 80-120 I believe. A good size range to be sure, but if you don't have a final board, and you're talking about increasing chips and hashes then a wide range is prudent. Assuming the power consumption is 120w for 72Gh, I got zero problems with that, just get the dang thing in a box and ship it to me. A single day hashing at current difficulty w/ 72Gh would likely pay me the difference between the single SC's power consumption costs and the bASIC01's for the entire year. Not to mention the huge disparity in $/Gh between these two competing gizmos.

It appears the PCBs are ready for BFL, as well as other components needed to build it. I'd be surprised if they weren't basically done firmware as well given all the extra time they've had with the last 6 weeks of delays.

[creativex]

I think you're very forgiving of BFL's consistent do-over shipping dates, but that's your prerogative. I find it more than a little disturbing that they announced a product for pre-order so early in the year, began taking money for said product, and yet here 6 months later still do not have the primary component to build that product. Even when they do have working chips which I believe the latest estimate was mid Dec, there's still board layout, firmware, optimizing, testing, etc. Consider Tom's situation, if his releases are to be believed he has the chips, and he was still forced to announce a month and a half delay, but BFL is going to get the chips in mid Dec and ship by Jan 1? That doesn't even pass cursory sniff tests.

Don't really understand all the bASIC doesn't release power info talk anymore. I did think Tom was being a bit too quiet on the subject, but he's since said 80-120 I believe. A good size range to be sure, but if you don't have a final board, and you're talking about increasing chips and hashes then a wide range is prudent. Assuming the power consumption is 120w for 72Gh, I got zero problems with that, just get the dang thing in a box and ship it to me. A single day hashing at current difficulty w/ 72Gh would likely pay me the difference between the single SC's power consumption costs and the bASIC01's for the entire year. Not to mention the huge disparity in $/Gh between these two competing gizmos.

It appears the PCBs are ready for BFL, as well as other components needed to build it. I'd be surprised if they weren't basically done firmware as well given all the extra time they've had with the last 6 weeks of delays.

Seems like it'd be a risk to complete boards without having final silicon to test with, but I guess we'll see soon enough.

[MrTeal]

I think you're very forgiving of BFL's consistent do-over shipping dates, but that's your prerogative. I find it more than a little disturbing that they announced a product for pre-order so early in the year, began taking money for said product, and yet here 6 months later still do not have the primary component to build that product. Even when they do have working chips which I believe the latest estimate was mid Dec, there's still board layout, firmware, optimizing, testing, etc. Consider Tom's situation, if his releases are to be believed he has the chips, and he was still forced to announce a month and a half delay, but BFL is going to get the chips in mid Dec and ship by Jan 1? That doesn't even pass cursory sniff tests.

Don't really understand all the bASIC doesn't release power info talk anymore. I did think Tom was being a bit too quiet on the subject, but he's since said 80-120 I believe. A good size range to be sure, but if you don't have a final board, and you're talking about increasing chips and hashes then a wide range is prudent. Assuming the power consumption is 120w for 72Gh, I got zero problems with that, just get the dang thing in a box and ship it to me. A single day hashing at current difficulty w/ 72Gh would likely pay me the difference between the single SC's power consumption costs and the bASIC01's for the entire year. Not to mention the huge disparity in $/Gh between these two competing gizmos.

It appears the PCBs are ready for BFL, as well as other components needed to build it. I'd be surprised if they weren't basically done firmware as well given all the extra time they've had with the last 6 weeks of delays.

Seems like it'd be a risk to complete boards without having final silicon to test with, but I guess we'll see soon enough.

Why? You know close to the power draw as well as the pinout of the chips. In the worst case that you have to tweak something and then do another run of boards. They probably paying a couple bucks a board in the quantities they're ordering.

[creativex]

True that. I guess we'll find out what they've been getting done while the chip saga unfolds soon enough. It'd be tough luck if they finally got working chips and then had to change the board layout. Josh had said they'd match competitors' shipping products at one point. I wonder how much they can juice they can squeeze out of it without requiring more chips or more power than current VR circuits can provide.

[Badonkadonk]

I wonder how much they can juice they can squeeze out of it without requiring more chips or more power than current VR circuits can provide.

[creativex]

Kh or Mh?

[bitmar]

Kh or Mh?

Th !!!
Don't forget that:
 Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.) is a market leader in microprocessor design (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/6/prweb9611889.htm) , for them is not a problem   

[Frizz23]

Hello BFL,

I can sort of understand that you wait for your ASICs (because your Asian fab screwed you over, or whatever). But what I don't understand is all the other delays.

E.g. BFL_Jody wrote yesterday: "Although we have not been able to move into our new facility yet, the storeroom there is filling up fast with the new parts".
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/52-christmas-vacation-may-not-happen.html#comment364

I mean you guys intended to move to new premises since ages now.

Is the excuse for this again the unusual long Chinese holiday?