[ANN] Bitcoin Foundation

[vess]

We are trying to go bank-account-less and do all incoming and outgoing payments with BTC, including payroll. Dogfooding Bitcoin as currency-of-a-corporation is one of my favorite things about the Foundation, actually.

Wow!  +100 there

You gotta walk the walk.

Thanks! I'm super psyched about it, actually. Gavin and I were discussing how awesome actual cryptographically secured payment controls would be for business owners and bookkeepers, there's also a whole set of businesses that I can imagine which need to be built out -- like payroll companies for Bitcoin, payables companies for Bitcoin.. It's really exciting to think about, and it's one reason we decided to repeg the bitcoin-USD rate only every so often, we're trying to go totally Bitcoin.

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[Atlas]

Unless Gavin accepts the "long-arm of government" through the "official" voice of The Bitcoin Foundation. Before you know it, you'll see government backdoors in the protocol and people would be swayed into accepting it with little question because "Standards".

If anything suspicious happens, I will be the first to abandon the "official" client then.
For now, such scenario seems highly improbable.

Let me make explain it in other words:

One does not simply pass The Federal Reserve Act and conquer a whole nation through private central banking. It happened in America, the most decentralized nation of them all with a clear constitution and rules of engagement. It can happen here in the Bitcoin realm.

There are people out there who are threatened by Bitcoin. They will try to manipulate culture and have people sway to their whim. This organization is perfect for that.

American politics != Bitcoin version adoption.

Perhaps you don't understand that difference between democracy in open-source development and democracy in representative government. They're very different things.

All I know is every banking institution and technology in the world has been conquered through proxies, deceit and corruption. Every central bank in the world has been sold out to private individuals regardless of good intentions and rule of law.

You simply cannot corrupt and deceit source code, as long as there are enough eyes looking at it.
It is close to impossible.

The human factor is always the weakest factor. The source code factor - that's another story.

If humans interpret the Bitcoin source code standardization of The Bitcoin Foundation as legitimate and as the sole authority, the Bitcoin source code can change with no question as long as this authority makes the changes. The process will turn into a cult of personality. Bitcoin will rest in the hands of a single organization.

Obviously, you have no idea how programming works.
Thus, you have no ducking idea what you are talking about.

Talking to you is as useful & constructive, as talking to a duck.

I'm actually starting to wonder if you are actually a madman or perhaps you get paid to do this.

You simply fail to understand me. Source code review only works if people can easily denounce the changes without being called a troll and told to leave. If a cult around the Bitcoin Foundation forms under its implied authority and ties to Congress, it could make contesting changes obsolete.

The illusion of choice should remain but the ability may not.

Then You have no idea how internet works.

On the internet, anybody can denounce everybody, if they have proof. And it is trivial to get proof on the Internet as the necessary wisdom is everywhere accessible within seconds.

Also, programmers don't need lawyers, specialists & other expert witnesses to determine if somebody's proof is valid or not.
If somebody marks 10 lines of code, and proves that these lines contains a trojan, it is trivial to asses if he is telling the truth.

Also, you fail to see that just one evil move of the Gavin's foundation would condemn it forever, and nobody would trust it (or the people behind it) ever again.
Is that worth the risk ? Highly doubtable.

Not if evil is redefined over time by The Bitcoin Foundation and people accept the message.

[Atlas]

I'ts not difficult to list someone as a founding member even if they "disappeared"

It's not difficult, it's just a lie. As the name "Bitcoin Foundation" itself, since you're not the foundation of Bitcoin.

Whats a lie?

Satoshi is a member of the foundation because he is the creator of Bitcoin.

Just because he "disappeared" doesn't mean he can't be member in absentee.

In fact, the bylaws outline that if Satoshi returns how he will claim his seat.

Satoshi cannot be a member at all until he provides his name and address, so how can he be a "founding member"?

This dichotomy will always fester away at the core of the "Foundation" ... just so you know, that it is based on a lie.

+1

[BitcoinBug]

Atlas this is happening now, with or without the foundation, makes no difference
anyone can go and change the bitcoin soruce code.
and guess who looks over the changes...
Now that they just put a cute label on their team, and you go nuts...  

you should be happy now that they are no longer an underground mysterious group of people.

+1

[Atlas]

It doesn't matter if a few miners can fork if none of the other releases have clout.

Bullshit. Do you think we Bitcoiners are mindless masses chasing fiat profits?

Maybe not now but maybe in the future as this ecosystem grows and companies and other powers shape the culture.

Every founding country trust its original people.

So the nouveau bitcoin change things to suit them. I don't use their protocol, neither do those that made the original block chain grow as fast as it has. And we are back at square one, but perhaps with a bit more wisdom.

I would prefer this protocol to be the major currency and not whatever monstrosity the government and this corporation controls.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Unless Gavin accepts the "long-arm of government" through the "official" voice of The Bitcoin Foundation. Before you know it, you'll see government backdoors in the protocol and people would be swayed into accepting it with little question because "Standards".

If anything suspicious happens, I will be the first to abandon the "official" client then.
For now, such scenario seems highly improbable.

Let me make explain it in other words:

One does not simply pass The Federal Reserve Act and conquer a whole nation through private central banking. It happened in America, the most decentralized nation of them all with a clear constitution and rules of engagement. It can happen here in the Bitcoin realm.

There are people out there who are threatened by Bitcoin. They will try to manipulate culture and have people sway to their whim. This organization is perfect for that.

American politics != Bitcoin version adoption.

Perhaps you don't understand that difference between democracy in open-source development and democracy in representative government. They're very different things.

All I know is every banking institution and technology in the world has been conquered through proxies, deceit and corruption. Every central bank in the world has been sold out to private individuals regardless of good intentions and rule of law.

You simply cannot corrupt and deceit source code, as long as there are enough eyes looking at it.
It is close to impossible.

The human factor is always the weakest factor. The source code factor - that's another story.

If humans interpret the Bitcoin source code standardization of The Bitcoin Foundation as legitimate and as the sole authority, the Bitcoin source code can change with no question as long as this authority makes the changes. The process will turn into a cult of personality. Bitcoin will rest in the hands of a single organization.

Obviously, you have no idea how programming works.
Thus, you have no ducking idea what you are talking about.

Talking to you is as useful & constructive, as talking to a duck.

I'm actually starting to wonder if you are actually a madman or perhaps you get paid to do this.

You simply fail to understand me. Source code review only works if people can easily denounce the changes without being called a troll and told to leave. If a cult around the Bitcoin Foundation forms under its implied authority and ties to Congress, it could make contesting changes obsolete.

The illusion of choice should remain but the ability may not.

Then You have no idea how internet works.

On the internet, anybody can denounce everybody, if they have proof. And it is trivial to get proof on the Internet as the necessary wisdom is everywhere accessible within seconds.

Also, programmers don't need lawyers, specialists & other expert witnesses to determine if somebody's proof is valid or not.
If somebody marks 10 lines of code, and proves that these lines contains a trojan, it is trivial to asses if he is telling the truth.

Also, you fail to see that just one evil move of the Gavin's foundation would condemn it forever, and nobody would trust it (or the people behind it) ever again.
Is that worth the risk ? Highly doubtable.

Not if evil is redefined over time by The Bitcoin Foundation and people accept the message.

You still fail to grasp how Open Source world works.
If i don't like the code, I start a fork, I present the evidence that Gavin is cheating, so people start using my fork. It is as simple as that.

Actually, I already did that once, because i didn't like official client forcing fees in some situations.

In case of such event, everybody in their right minds would use my fork, because everybody would know that Gavin's version has government's trojan. Of course, there would be major chaos at first, but after some period of time, we would be back to "normal".

[acoindr]

Atlas this is happening now, with or without the foundation, makes no difference
anyone can go and change the bitcoin soruce code.
and guess who looks over the changes...
Now that they just put a cute label on their team, and you go nuts...  

you should be happy now that they are no longer an underground mysterious group of people.

+1

No, -1.

That's the problem. In the current system they are not "recognized officially" which inherently gives an endorsement which translates to power.

[Atlas]

Unless Gavin accepts the "long-arm of government" through the "official" voice of The Bitcoin Foundation. Before you know it, you'll see government backdoors in the protocol and people would be swayed into accepting it with little question because "Standards".

If anything suspicious happens, I will be the first to abandon the "official" client then.
For now, such scenario seems highly improbable.

Let me make explain it in other words:

One does not simply pass The Federal Reserve Act and conquer a whole nation through private central banking. It happened in America, the most decentralized nation of them all with a clear constitution and rules of engagement. It can happen here in the Bitcoin realm.

There are people out there who are threatened by Bitcoin. They will try to manipulate culture and have people sway to their whim. This organization is perfect for that.

American politics != Bitcoin version adoption.

Perhaps you don't understand that difference between democracy in open-source development and democracy in representative government. They're very different things.

All I know is every banking institution and technology in the world has been conquered through proxies, deceit and corruption. Every central bank in the world has been sold out to private individuals regardless of good intentions and rule of law.

You simply cannot corrupt and deceit source code, as long as there are enough eyes looking at it.
It is close to impossible.

The human factor is always the weakest factor. The source code factor - that's another story.

If humans interpret the Bitcoin source code standardization of The Bitcoin Foundation as legitimate and as the sole authority, the Bitcoin source code can change with no question as long as this authority makes the changes. The process will turn into a cult of personality. Bitcoin will rest in the hands of a single organization.

Obviously, you have no idea how programming works.
Thus, you have no ducking idea what you are talking about.

Talking to you is as useful & constructive, as talking to a duck.

I'm actually starting to wonder if you are actually a madman or perhaps you get paid to do this.

You simply fail to understand me. Source code review only works if people can easily denounce the changes without being called a troll and told to leave. If a cult around the Bitcoin Foundation forms under its implied authority and ties to Congress, it could make contesting changes obsolete.

The illusion of choice should remain but the ability may not.

Then You have no idea how internet works.

On the internet, anybody can denounce everybody, if they have proof. And it is trivial to get proof on the Internet as the necessary wisdom is everywhere accessible within seconds.

Also, programmers don't need lawyers, specialists & other expert witnesses to determine if somebody's proof is valid or not.
If somebody marks 10 lines of code, and proves that these lines contains a trojan, it is trivial to asses if he is telling the truth.

Also, you fail to see that just one evil move of the Gavin's foundation would condemn it forever, and nobody would trust it (or the people behind it) ever again.
Is that worth the risk ? Highly doubtable.

Not if evil is redefined over time by The Bitcoin Foundation and people accept the message.

You still fail to grasp how Open Source world works.
If i don't like the code, I start a fork, I present the evidence that Gavin is cheating, soe people start using my fork. It is as simple as that.

Actually, I already did that once, because i didn't like official client forcing fees in some situations.

In case of such event, everybody in their right minds would use my fork, because everybody would know that Gavin's version has government's trojan. Of course, there would be major chaos at first, but after some period of time, we would be back to "normal".

Not if your message and fork is suppressed through well-fund marketing sponsored by The Bitcoin Foundation. Messages, culture and other things can be controlled. That's the main fear here: Their clout becoming the dominating message and culture of Bitcoin.

The Federalist Papers are an example of this: A well-marketed set of papers overthrew The Articles of Confederation that originally governed the United States. They successfully created a centralized, federal power structure by suppressing the message and changing it.

[justusranvier]

I have a few questions about the Foundation that I haven't seen answered anywhere else.

1. How will potential conflicts of interest be identified and addressed? Especially with regards to the relationship between the foundation and businesses associated with the board members.

2. Is there an explicit list of activities which donations might be used for, or perhaps even a list of activities which donations will never be used for?

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Not if your message and fork is suppressed through well-fund marketing sponsored by The Bitcoin Foundation. Messages, culture and other things can be controlled. That's the main fear here: Their clout becoming the dominating message and culture of Bitcoin.

The Federalist Papers are an example of this: A well-marketed set of papers overthrew The Articles of Confederation that originally governed the United States. They successfully created a centralized, federal power structure by suppressing the message and changing it.

Sorry, not gonna work anymore in the era of the internet, especially in the cryptogeek subculture, which sustains bitcoin.
You (they) need to think of something much, much better. Raise the bar...

[Atlas]

Sorry, not gonna work anymore in the era of the internet, especially in the cryptogeek subculture, which sustains bitcoin.
You (they) need to think of something much, much better. Raise the bar...

I hope you're right.

[Polvos]

Sorry, not gonna work anymore in the era of the internet, especially in the cryptogeek subculture, which sustains bitcoin.
You (they) need to think of something much, much better. Raise the bar...

Sorry but this works today in the University world. All the main software oriented applications compete to be installed in the learning computers because, if the student learns to do the work with a program, usually he will end up buying the license when his professional career starts. Never underestimate the power of the lazyness and inertia.

With the latest articles published in the media and in two months for the halving reward (with all the publicity it will produce), we are allowing kindly one company to selfdeclare themselves the "face of bitcoin" and probably become, from now, the first contact any newbie will have in his bitcoin walktrough. Interesting.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Sorry, not gonna work anymore in the era of the internet, especially in the cryptogeek subculture, which sustains bitcoin.
You (they) need to think of something much, much better. Raise the bar...

Sorry but this works today in the University world.

But this is not the "university world".
Haven't you noticed yet how paranoid, libertarian and anarchist Bitcoin society is ?
Read this thread, find out. We are extremely paranoid. Trying to manipulate the source now would be a personal suicide for the person who tried it.

I suspect that many people who post in this thread actually may have tinfoil hats.

[Atlas]

All I can say is that this paranoia must not die. Liberty requires eternal vigilance.



The Bitcoin Foundation can become a titular bank if we allow it to.

[boonies4u]

All I can say is that this paranoia must not die. Liberty requires eternal vigilance.



The Bitcoin Foundation can become a titular bank if we allow it to.

What harm can a titular bank do?

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

All I can say is that this paranoia must not die. Liberty requires eternal vigilance.



The Bitcoin Foundation can become a titular bank if we allow it to.

Actually i support you this time.

Despite everything i said before, I actually think that sooner or later, somebody will try to put a trojan in the code. So let's stay paranoid and review every portion of the code for 1000 times. (Surely people who have invested a lot of $$$ in Bitcoin already do it - thus securing their investment)

It's better to be safe than sorry.

[Atlas]

All I can say is that this paranoia must not die. Liberty requires eternal vigilance.

The Bitcoin Foundation can become a titular bank if we allow it to.

What harm can a titular bank do?

Raise your fees, seize your funds, tax at will. When you control the "official" releases of Bitcoin and maintain the message of what's acceptable, anything can be done.

[marcus_of_augustus]

But this is not the "university world".
Haven't you noticed yet how paranoid, libertarian and anarchist Bitcoin society is ?
Read this thread, find out. We are extremely paranoid. Trying to manipulate the source now would be a personal suicide for the person who tried it.

I suspect that many people who post in this thread actually may have tinfoil hats.

Throwing accusations around like "tinfoil hats" does nothing to advance the debate ... neither does pasting extended quote blocks.

We are just trying to keep it real for the dumbed-down masses that are about to stampede into bitcoin.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

All I can say is that this paranoia must not die. Liberty requires eternal vigilance.

The Bitcoin Foundation can become a titular bank if we allow it to.

What harm can a titular bank do?

Raise your fees, seize your funds, tax at will. When you control the "official" releases of Bitcoin and maintain the message of what's acceptable, anything can be done.

Atlas, you are missing the point. **Gavin & folks already do control the official releases**. So there is no difference.

[Atlas]

All I can say is that this paranoia must not die. Liberty requires eternal vigilance.

The Bitcoin Foundation can become a titular bank if we allow it to.

What harm can a titular bank do?

Raise your fees, seize your funds, tax at will. When you control the "official" releases of Bitcoin and maintain the message of what's acceptable, anything can be done.

Atlas, you are missing the point. **Gavin & folks already do control the official releases**. So there is no difference.

They do but the legitimacy of these releases have been dying through online wallets. This might reverse that and I fear it.