If you want to know why I hate the dev team and how they treat Bitcoin...

[mobodick]

If these people can't be bothered to spend a couple hours learning about the software they are using and why it behaves as it does, then they probably can't be bothered to take the necessary steps to backup and secure their Bitcoins either. They probably can't even be bothered to secure their personal computers!

If someone could buy a bitcoins at a retail store and redeem them on a merchant site, what should this person be expected to learn before he's worthy enough to use Bitcoins?  Does GreenDot require two hours of learning before they let you buy a MoneyPak?

For this use case, what does someone need to know about spending a Bitcoin "gift card" beyond what's necessary to use a GreenDot MoneyPak?  About the only thing they need to know is a) it's decentralized, so b) there's no 800 number to call if anything goes wrong so be careful and don't put too many eggs in any one basket, and c) no one will be nannying you or monitoring how you spend your money, so enjoy your freedom.  What have I missed?

The idea that someone could steal their private key is something they've already been taught by MoneyPaks and iTunes gift cards in the form of scratchoffs reminding them that if the card is tampered, not to buy it.  The likelihood that the party who applied the scratchoffs - a commercial manufacturer of Bitcoin "gift cards" (think Bit-Pay) is going to defraud individuals out of their bitcoins - is no greater than the likelihood that they would defraud them out of Applebee's dollars today.

The idea that this person should be expected to learn a couple hours of anything or else be shut out because they should adapt to us, not the other way around, is... Atlas put it best... autism, a total failure to comprehend and adapt to the mindset and needs of the average human being.

Bitcoin is still very much beta but here we have a person like atlas demanding a change and calling the devs autists.

Unremorsefully. Autists have destroyed companies and they do not make marketable and successful products. Google OpenMoko.

Yeah, but why do you think you have the right to demand that they fix stuff for you?

I have the right to demand whatever I want, along with everybody else. It's simple text and speech, nothing more. A right is simply an ability and I am able to speak.

As for actions, they remain in possession of the respective agents.

Sure, you can demand all you want.
But in this case it makes you look like a little kid in a toy store that demands that the shop owners give you a toy.
I see a lot of that with people that do not contribute themselfs to code of an open source project.

I've never cared for a spotless appearance. I have also never cared for the organization nor the actions of the Bitcoin-Qt/Bitcoind project. I rather see it lose its recognition among the public. This end of mine -- it doesn't require code contributions of any kind.

Your obsession with honor and dignity has no bearing on my person. I never play that game. I transcend it.

Serially tho, stating that you're better never won a grown up argument.
You're about as much transcended as a kid hooked on sugar.
GIMME GIMME GIMME I NEEEEEED!.

My happiness isn't dependent on any of this.

Which immediately makes me wonder what nerve i've hit for you to bring up happiness...

[Atlas]

If these people can't be bothered to spend a couple hours learning about the software they are using and why it behaves as it does, then they probably can't be bothered to take the necessary steps to backup and secure their Bitcoins either. They probably can't even be bothered to secure their personal computers!

If someone could buy a bitcoins at a retail store and redeem them on a merchant site, what should this person be expected to learn before he's worthy enough to use Bitcoins?  Does GreenDot require two hours of learning before they let you buy a MoneyPak?

For this use case, what does someone need to know about spending a Bitcoin "gift card" beyond what's necessary to use a GreenDot MoneyPak?  About the only thing they need to know is a) it's decentralized, so b) there's no 800 number to call if anything goes wrong so be careful and don't put too many eggs in any one basket, and c) no one will be nannying you or monitoring how you spend your money, so enjoy your freedom.  What have I missed?

The idea that someone could steal their private key is something they've already been taught by MoneyPaks and iTunes gift cards in the form of scratchoffs reminding them that if the card is tampered, not to buy it.  The likelihood that the party who applied the scratchoffs - a commercial manufacturer of Bitcoin "gift cards" (think Bit-Pay) is going to defraud individuals out of their bitcoins - is no greater than the likelihood that they would defraud them out of Applebee's dollars today.

The idea that this person should be expected to learn a couple hours of anything or else be shut out because they should adapt to us, not the other way around, is... Atlas put it best... autism, a total failure to comprehend and adapt to the mindset and needs of the average human being.

Bitcoin is still very much beta but here we have a person like atlas demanding a change and calling the devs autists.

Unremorsefully. Autists have destroyed companies and they do not make marketable and successful products. Google OpenMoko.

Yeah, but why do you think you have the right to demand that they fix stuff for you?

I have the right to demand whatever I want, along with everybody else. It's simple text and speech, nothing more. A right is simply an ability and I am able to speak.

As for actions, they remain in possession of the respective agents.

Sure, you can demand all you want.
But in this case it makes you look like a little kid in a toy store that demands that the shop owners give you a toy.
I see a lot of that with people that do not contribute themselfs to code of an open source project.

I've never cared for a spotless appearance. I have also never cared for the organization nor the actions of the Bitcoin-Qt/Bitcoind project. I rather see it lose its recognition among the public. This end of mine -- it doesn't require code contributions of any kind.

Your obsession with honor and dignity has no bearing on my person. I never play that game. I transcend it.

Serially tho, stating that you're better never won a grown up argument.
You're about as much transcended as a kid hooked on sugar.
GIMME GIMME GIMME I NEEEEEED!.

My happiness isn't dependent on any of this.

Which immediately makes me wonder what nerve i've hit for you to bring up happiness...

Feel free to make another thread on this.

[ChrisKoss]

Unremorsefully. Autists have destroyed companies and they do not make marketable and successful products. Google OpenMoko.

Welp, Atlas has received 4 pages of well thought out responses, but only responds to nitpick minor points.  He doesn't want discussion, he wants to make-believe that he is an important member of the community just for being the most whiny person here.  

This is a troll thread.  It's disappointing, but all the well-written replies appear to have been in vain. He doesn't listen, he just wants to be heard. This is just a sad cry for attention.

[Atlas]

Unremorsefully. Autists have destroyed companies and they do not make marketable and successful products. Google OpenMoko.

Welp, Atlas has received 4 pages of well thought out responses, but only responds to nitpick minor points.  He doesn't want discussion, he wants to make-believe that he is an important member of the community just for being the most whiny person here.  

This is a troll thread.  It's disappointing, but all the well-written replies appear to have been in vain. He doesn't listen, he just wants to be heard. This is just a sad cry for attention.

Oh, I listen. I may not accept the conjecture but I listen.

Philosophical differences do not have to be resolved.

[Richy_T]

Messias complexes usually end in the mental hospital.

Unfortunately, as the ones wearing badges which say "Doctor"

[ElectricMucus]

Messias complexes usually end in the mental hospital.

Unfortunately, as the ones wearing badges which say "Doctor"

Agreed, todays mental health treatment is the equivalent to bloodletting using leeches.

[mobodick]

Messias complexes usually end in the mental hospital.

Unfortunately, as the ones wearing badges which say "Doctor"

Agreed, todays mental health treatment is the equivalent to bloodletting using leeches.

Jesus, then you better not read about how it worked 100 years ago...
They were making lobotobots at industrial speed.

[Atlas]

Messias complexes usually end in the mental hospital.

Unfortunately, as the ones wearing badges which say "Doctor"

http://www.ted.com/talks/tim_harford.html

Apparently the "god complex" issue applies to this subject very well. We can either act on proposed solutions by a central authority and trust that authority or we can improve through trial-and-error with various solutions.

[casascius]

So, basically you wrote a post agreeing with me, yet made it somehow seem that you were correcting me.  

Yep, I indeed misconstrued your post to mean that people should either learn how Bitcoin works or not use it at all, and apologize for the misunderstanding.

[mobodick]

Messias complexes usually end in the mental hospital.

Unfortunately, as the ones wearing badges which say "Doctor"

http://www.ted.com/talks/tim_harford.html

Apparently the "god complex" issue applies to this subject very well. We can either act on proposed solutions by a central authority and trust that authority or we can improve through trial-and-error with various solutions.

Sure, so again, why don't you go and make your own variation?

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Messias complexes usually end in the mental hospital.

Unfortunately, as the ones wearing badges which say "Doctor"

http://www.ted.com/talks/tim_harford.html

Apparently the "god complex" issue applies to this subject very well. We can either act on proposed solutions by a central authority and trust that authority or we can improve through trial-and-error with various solutions.

There still is one concept you simply can't grasp:

What you said above is not how open source projects work. In open source world, once most of people don't like the decision of the "central authority", they make a fork, and majority starts using the fork.

Examples are many. Gnome 3 -> Mate, MySQL -> MariaDB/Percona, OpenOffice -> LibreOffice. This really works.

And I am not even mentioning completely alternative (not forked) projects...

[Atlas]

Messias complexes usually end in the mental hospital.

Unfortunately, as the ones wearing badges which say "Doctor"

http://www.ted.com/talks/tim_harford.html

Apparently the "god complex" issue applies to this subject very well. We can either act on proposed solutions by a central authority and trust that authority or we can improve through trial-and-error with various solutions.

There still is one concept you simply can't grasp:

What you said above is not how open source projects work. In open source world, once most of people don't like the decision of the "central authority", they make a fork, and majority starts using the fork.

Examples are many. Gnome 3 -> Mate, MySQL -> MariaDB/Percona, OpenOffice -> LibreOffice. This really works.

And I am not even mentioning completely alternative (not forked) projects...

Except a fork in this case creates an entirely different currency. I don't want to reduce the value of the Bitcoins I have now or see them reduced.

[Richy_T]

Except a fork in this case creates an entirely different currency. I don't want to reduce the value of the Bitcoins I have now or see them reduced.

Not really. As long as it implements the same underlying protocol, it is still bitcoins.

[Atlas]

Except a fork in this case creates an entirely different currency. I don't want to reduce the value of the Bitcoins I have now or see them reduced.

Not really. As long as it implements the same underlying protocol, it is still bitcoins.

No, no it is not. I will not get $12 and upwards for an alternate Bitcoin not supported by most of the community.

[Atlas]

If I just wanted "Bitcoins" to play around with like a kid and monopoly money, I would of created an alternate chain right now. That does not answer my concerns, at all -- AT ALL. The only thing worth defending is what we have now.

I am invested in a large sum of Bitcoins. I am guessing you guys have none. This is just a game for you, isn't it?

Bitcoins are like my home. To tell me to leave my home or place my home in abandoned wasteland does not give me choice. It is basically win or lose and you are asking me to lose.

[mobodick]

If I just wanted "Bitcoins" to play around with like a kid and monopoly money, I would of created an alternate chain right now. That does not answer my concerns, at all -- AT ALL. The only thing worth defending is what we have now.

I am invested in a large sum of Bitcoins. I am guessing you guys have none. This is just a game for you, isn't it?

But if your concerns were valid a differnt coin with properties you seek should take off and become better than bitcoin. So it would be stupid not to do it if you really think it's that important.
You would just transfer your bitcoins to the new coin and according to you it should outperform bitcoin (as bitcoin usability and thus growth is hampered by current development).
If what you ask for is really important then you have no way to lose.

[Atlas]

If I just wanted "Bitcoins" to play around with like a kid and monopoly money, I would of created an alternate chain right now. That does not answer my concerns, at all -- AT ALL. The only thing worth defending is what we have now.

I am invested in a large sum of Bitcoins. I am guessing you guys have none. This is just a game for you, isn't it?

But if your concerns were valid a differnt coin with properties you seek should take off and become better than bitcoin. So it would be stupid not to do it if you realy think it's that important.
You would just transfer your bitcoins to the new coin and according to you it should outperform bitcoin (as bitcoin usability and thus growth is hampered by current development).
If what you ask for is really important then you have no way to lose.

No, success isn't guaranteed. The liquidity and support we have for Bitcoin is not a widely available commodity.

I don't even seek different properties. I like what we have now but I am afraid of future change proposed by a trusted and central developer. I am just speaking against possible dangers. That does not require me to run off and reinvent the wheel.

Like it or leave it doesn't apply in this case. It's actually like it and protect it.

[mobodick]

Bitcoins are like my home. To tell me to leave my home or place my home in abandoned wasteland does not give me choice. It is basically win or lose and you are asking me to lose.

Reminds me of a person living for free in a subway cart and calling it his home.
And then complains to the driver that the heating is broken...

[Atlas]

Bitcoins are like my home. To tell me to leave my home or place my home in abandoned wasteland does not give me choice. It is basically win or lose and you are asking me to lose.

Reminds me of a person living for free in a subway cart and calling it his home.
And then complains to the driver that the heating is broken...

Except Gavin Andresen and Co. are not the drivers. Satoshi was and he left. It's all free game now.

[greyhawk]

Bitcoins are like my home. To tell me to leave my home or place my home in abandoned wasteland does not give me choice. It is basically win or lose and you are asking me to lose.

Reminds me of a person living for free in a subway cart and calling it his home.
And then complains to the driver that the heating is broken...

Sounds more like religion to me. There's even the whole "Waiting for the Messiah to return" thing.