Vitalik writes Dear John letter to the Ethereum community...

[JacksonBriggs]

This article has some mighty nice points made in it.

https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/09/28/the-evolution-of-ethereum/

Deez are muh favorites.

we suffered roughly $9m in lost potential capital , and a hiring schedule that was meant to last over three years ended up lasting a little under two (although bolstered by a “second wind” from our ETH holdings).

Or in other words, "our massive dump on polo"

Let us start off by providing an overview of the Foundation’s financial situation. Its current holdings are roughly:

200,000 CHF
1,800 BTC
2,700,000 ETH

translation, "we presold 60m eth and then front ran another 8m eth after it hit the exchanges"

And last but not least. My upmost favorite part of the Dear John Letter.

Up until fairly recently, almost all of the work that has been done on the Ethereum project has been done by subsidiaries of the foundation. In the future, however, although the foundation and its subsidiaries are going to continue to take on a strong and leading role, it will be the community that will gradually be the primary driver in making it succeed.

Because we made our money, peace bitches.

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[JacksonBriggs]

get to work community....take us to the moon!

the denouement:

"The foundation and its subsidiaries alone simply do not have the manpower to push the entirety of this vision through to its ultimate completion, including proof-of-stake driven scalable blockchains, seamlessly integrated distributed hash tables, programming languages with formal verification systems backed by state-of-the-art theorem provers and dozens of categories of middleware"

to da moon community!

If only it were a community grass roots project like btc it might have some community enthusiasm to take it to the moon. However, its already made a couple folks filthy rich at the expense of said community they want to pick up the slack.

[bcdev]

Let us start off by providing an overview of the Foundation’s financial situation. Its current holdings are roughly:
200,000 CHF
1,800 BTC
2,700,000 ETH

That's $2,315,000 with today's prices, most of which is in ETH. Assuming that ETH price is stable, it'll last:

The foundation’s monthly expenditures are currently ~410,000 CHF and starting Oct 1 are projected to fall to 340,000 CHF; a mid-term goal has been placed of 200,000 – 250,000 CHF

Even with 200,000 CHF of monthly expenses the Ethereum Foundation will go bankrupt in 12 months if they don't have any monetization plans.

Do they have any monetization plan?

[JacksonBriggs]

That's $2,315,000 with today's prices, most of which is in ETH. Assuming that ETH price is stable, it'll last:

Like the $17m lasted?

[box0214]

its called smart marketing....

1. fund ethereum with your own BTC
2. work for ethereum for a large salary (150-200k).
3. Get money back
4. Market it as having raised the largest amount in crypto.
5. pay talented marketers big bucks to hype it.
6. gg...

smart and clever.

i still believe ethereum is good, but its original intention is not to compete with btc. its a platform, just like NXT.

its the applications that gets built on top of it that's whats going to be valuable.

[bcdev]

Like the $17m lasted?

Big chunk of the money was lost due to Bitcoin's loss in value. But yes, they are awful at managing money [compared to SuperNET and NXT].


Does Ethereum Foundation have any monetization plan? How much do they make in donations for example? Is it enough to keep development forward?

[Coinshot]

Let us start off by providing an overview of the Foundation’s financial situation. Its current holdings are roughly:

200,000 CHF
1,800 BTC
2,700,000 ETH

They need to show when they sold the 8m ETH. If they did it at the start while warning others against transferring that is a clear theft.

Does Ethereum Foundation have any monetization plan? How much do they make in donations for example? Is it enough to keep development forward?

Read the blog, Vitalik expects others to come with their own for profit ventures.

[worhiper_-_]

Fucking lol OP, you'd make good company with the paid shills in /r/buttcoin... 

Seriously though, don't you think that it's a little early to judge the innovation that could come out of ethereum? If years pass and there's no significant use cases or applications developed then you would be able to say that it was overvalued without having to be called a FUDster. But I think that this is unlikely.

[Hazard]

Anyone who didn't see this coming simply wasn't paying attention.

[JacksonBriggs]

its called smart marketing....

1. fund ethereum with your own BTC
2. work for ethereum for a large salary (150-200k).
3. Get money back
4. Market it as having raised the largest amount in crypto.
5. pay talented marketers big bucks to hype it.
6. gg...

smart and clever.

i still believe ethereum is good, but its original intention is not to compete with btc. its a platform, just like NXT.

its the applications that gets built on top of it that's whats going to be valuable.

So they moved on to Augur?

[Thenoticer]

It sounds to me like they just pulled a mastercoin. Now who is the counterparty of etherium

[Stephen Gornick]

Ethereum: Bitcoin Price Decline Created $9 Million Funding Shortfall

http://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-bitcoin-decline-9-million-funding-shortfall

[JacksonBriggs]

Ethereum: Bitcoin Price Decline Created $9 Million Funding Shortfall

http://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-bitcoin-decline-9-million-funding-shortfall

interesting article thanks for the share

[JacksonBriggs]

This just in guise The ETH presale was not an IPO.

Remember that the ether sale was not an IPO; it was a method of obtaining ether directly by sending bitcoins to an address independently of the foundation's ETH holdings;

https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/3mpq6b/new_ethereum_blog_post_from_vitalik_buterin_the/cvh15z9

This kid reminds me what it would be like if Jayden Smith had a cult.

"REPEAT AFTER ME. IT WAS NOT AN INITIAL PURCHASE OFFERING. YOU COULD ONLY INITIALLY PURCHASE ETH DURING THE OFFERING."

[DecentralizeEconomics]

[spartacusrex]

"REPEAT AFTER ME. IT WAS NOT AN INITIAL PURCHASE OFFERING. YOU COULD ONLY INITIALLY PURCHASE ETH DURING THE OFFERING."

LOL..

Jesus.. 31,000 BTC just doesn't seem to go very far now adays.. Makes me feel a little 'sick' actually.

Personally, I just don't think there is a large enough TECHNICAL Community who could take ethereum to this POS point Vitalik speaks of.. Sorry.

If they don't 'Finish' it.. whatever that means, someone else will start something new, learn from their MANY mistakes, and try again. (Less Feature Creep next time please..)

What I am curious about is this - they have already included the exponential POW algo that will make POW un-tenable in 12 months, this was to ensure there is a switch to POS, but now he is saying they won't be able to do this..

Will they remove that code ?

Or is there a gun to our heads with a clock tick-tocking away next to us.. 

[defaced]

"REPEAT AFTER ME. IT WAS NOT AN INITIAL PURCHASE OFFERING. YOU COULD ONLY INITIALLY PURCHASE ETH DURING THE OFFERING."

LOL..

Jesus.. 31,000 BTC just doesn't seem to go very far now adays.. Makes me feel a little 'sick' actually.

Personally, I just don't think there is a large enough TECHNICAL Community who could take ethereum to this POS point Vitalik speaks of.. Sorry.

If they don't 'Finish' it.. whatever that means, someone else will start something new, learn from their MANY mistakes, and try again. (Less Feature Creep next time please..)

What I am curious about is this - they have already included the exponential POW algo that will make POW un-tenable in 12 months, this was to ensure there is a switch to POS, but now he is saying they won't be able to do this..

Will they remove that code ?

Or is there a gun to our heads with a clock tick-tocking away next to us.. 

That is a very solid question. The exponential piece of the diff algo only makes the diff harder,and like you said, to help usher in PoS. We are taking that little bit of code out of EXP because its simply not needed and we are completely revamping that algo. Currently its a little, um.. binary. The new one however is a lot more functional.

[tokeweed]

Something akin to the start-up woes.  Read the blog.  It's good to express yourself and to keep it real but that blog didn't really give people confidence in Ethereum.  

Buterin, it's nice to have some of the load carried by the community but this is all you buddy boy.  You started this and you are going to finish it for better or worse.  That blog is showing that the pressure is taking a toll on you.  You are the leader, the Big Kahuna...  So don't show it.  Be strong, work hard and keep developing.  Things will fall into place and everything is going to be A-Ok.

Peace.

[spartacusrex]

..The exponential piece of the diff algo only makes the diff harder,and like you said, to help usher in PoS. We are taking that little bit of code out of EXP because its simply not needed and we are completely revamping that algo. Currently its a little, um.. binary. The new one however is a lot more functional.

HAHA! .. That was quick.

By EXP, I assume you're referring to 'Expanse' (EthereumXT) ?

And here I was thinking that..

Personally, I just don't think there is a large enough TECHNICAL Community who could take ethereum to this POS point Vitalik speaks of.. Sorry.

If they don't 'Finish' it.. whatever that means, someone else will start something new, learn from their MANY mistakes, and try again. (Less Feature Creep next time please..)

Good Luck Lads. (If you can keep your cash burn rate to less than $250,000 a month!? you should be ok..  )

..

Something akin to the start-up woes.  Read the blog.  It's good to express yourself and to keep it real but that blog didn't really give people confidence in Ethereum. 

Buterin, it's nice to have some of the load carried by the community but this is all you buddy.  You started this and you are going to finish it for better or worse.  That blog is showing that the pressure is taking a toll on you.  You are the leader, the Big Kahuna...  So don't show it.  Be strong, work hard and keep developing.  Things will fall into place and everything is going to be A-Ok.

Peace.

I'm with you tokeweed, but if you take 18mil from investors, and then fail to deliver.. well.. hmm.. It's funny how smart techie guys are always terrible with money.
 

[JacksonBriggs]

I'm with you tokeweed, but if you take 18mil from investors, and then fail to deliver.. well.. hmm.. It's funny how smart techie guys are always terrible with money.
 

conveniently terrible with money

[tokeweed]

@spartacus

So what..  You 'judge' it as a failure...?  Already?  With the money thing, yeah..  Some money (maybe) has been squandered.  But they can't give up this early in the game.  But I fear for Buterin.  That blog shows how weak willed and weak minded he is in the face of adversity.  A lot of people are depending on him.  So he shouldn't be writing such blogs.

[Marvell1]

@spartacus

So what..  You 'judge' it as a failure...?  Already?  With the money thing, yeah..  Some money (maybe) has been squandered.  But they can't give up this early in the game.  But I fear for Buterin.  That blog shows how weak willed and weak minded he is in the face of adversity.  A lot of people are depending on him.  So he shouldn't be writing such blogs.

Lol so he should bury his head in the sand and do nothing ? There were alot of rumors and innuendo floating around he had to do something. 

The fact is the lost alot of key people when the eth payouts finally went out and he had to address it.

[NattyLiteCoin]

@spartacus

So what..  You 'judge' it as a failure...?  Already?  With the money thing, yeah..  Some money (maybe) has been squandered.  But they can't give up this early in the game.  But I fear for Buterin.  That blog shows how weak willed and weak minded he is in the face of adversity.  A lot of people are depending on him.  So he shouldn't be writing such blogs.

I don't think it's weakness, I think he's just an honest dude that had to make some decisions counter to his ethics and felt compelled to be transparent. I genuinely think this cat wants to change the world, but reality hit him in the mouth. He's not a cut throat businessman, he's a scientist and philosopher. I hope hope his message instills confidence in the ethereum project and its value will steadily grow.

[spartacusrex]

So what..  You 'judge' it as a failure...?  Already?  With the money thing, yeah..  Some money (maybe) has been squandered.  But they can't give up this early in the game.  But I fear for Buterin.  That blog shows how weak willed and weak minded he is in the face of adversity.  A lot of people are depending on him.  So he shouldn't be writing such blogs.

Not at all. I think calling it a 'failure' would be very harsh indeed. (You could make a strong case for financial mis-management, but not overall)

They have shown it is possible to set up this 'World Computer' Vitalik invented all those years ago.. (I really liked his original 64 command assembly white paper.. it was only about a page and a half long.)

Whether it is Ethereum or Expanse or Something Else, the cat is out of the bag now. We now know it can be done.

And that's good news for all.

My ONE gripe, would be that they should not have sold their ETH. Their BTC holdings should have been enough..

That was the 'key incentive'. Their incentive. Without that, there is very little to make them want ETH to succeed.

[vopakee]

So what..  You 'judge' it as a failure...?  Already?  With the money thing, yeah..  Some money (maybe) has been squandered.  But they can't give up this early in the game.  But I fear for Buterin.  That blog shows how weak willed and weak minded he is in the face of adversity.  A lot of people are depending on him.  So he shouldn't be writing such blogs.

Not at all. I think calling it a 'failure' would be very harsh indeed. (You could make a strong case for financial mis-management, but not overall)

They have shown it is possible to set up this 'World Computer' Vitalik invented all those years ago.. (I really liked his original 64 command assembly white paper.. it was only about a page and a half long.)

Whether it is Ethereum or Expanse or Something Else, the cat is out of the bag now. We now know it can be done.

And that's good news for all.

My ONE gripe, would be that they should not have sold their ETH. Their BTC holdings should have been enough..

That was the 'key incentive'. Their incentive. Without that, there is very little to make them want ETH to succeed.

Why not sell the ether? they will probably need the money more now than in a year, it wouldn't benifit the project if they had 8 million Ether left when the project is done. They should distribute(sell) that before the project is finnished, and try to accellerate the development as much as possible imo.

[spartacusrex]

The price was going to dump weather or not he slid his "second round of funding proposal" onto the table.  Might as well take what's given.  The price was going down anyway.  If he waits before dropping that bomb, then the price drops then too.  Looks to me like he got 2 birds with that one.  Well played in the face of adversity.  Be open, honest, transparent, and genuine in the face of defeat.  It takes a strong man to admit his mistakes, and not hide in shame.

I fuck up daily

Well said.

..

As for the ETH sell off.

It should have been the prize. The Incentive. Their worth nothing now compared to what they COULD be worth.. IF they finish and deliver.

So, the daily running of the operation, should have come from the 31,000!!!?? BTC that they got from investors. Plenty. Seriously.

THEN as a BONUS they also get a shed load of ETH (I'm all for that, good incentive) which they can touch in say, 1 year after launch (of the final release POS and all).

Carrot and Stick, to be blunt.. I can guarantee you people would be more motivated (which is what we want after all) and less lightly to leave the project if this carrot was dangled in front of them..

Just that the carrot is a big bag of quantum gold. Could be couldn't be. Billions. Up to you.

IMHO.

[iCEBREAKER]

I'm with you tokeweed, but if you take 18mil from investors, and then fail to deliver.. well.. hmm.. It's funny how smart techie guys are always terrible with money.
 

conveniently terrible with money

Sunny King and dNote aside, what kind of "smart techie guy" goes out of his way to faff about with PoS, when PoW works just fine?

You had one job ETH.  That job was to make a smart-chain, not invent novel and creative forms of PoW-->PoS bridges all mixed up with your "Definitely Not An IPO" IPO crowdfunding schemes.

Next time, keep it simple and fight features.  Focus and deliver on your core competency, not every shiny new function imaginable.

[vopakee]

Do we have any actual proof that the recent price deline was due to them dumping? I mean couldn't those 8 million coins just as well have been dumped some month ago?

[smooth]

You had one job ETH.  That job was to make a smart-chain, not invent novel and creative forms of PoW-->PoS bridges all mixed up with your "Definitely Not An IPO" IPO crowdfunding schemes.

Reality is far worse

On top of the colossal fail of doing four implementations before finishing even one we have...

the project’s needs have grown. Over the past twenty months, the project has grown from being a simple attempt to improve on Mastercoin by adding a programming language into an effort to push forward a powerful and expansive vision of “web 3.0” that includes multiple technologies, some built by ourselves and some by others, and a complex software stack that integrates them all
...
including proof-of-stake driven scalable blockchains, seamlessly integrated distributed hash tables, programming languages with formal verification systems backed by state-of-the-art theorem provers and dozens of categories of middleware

This all ranks among the worst examples of lack of focus and catastrophic feature creep I have ever seen and rivals Project Xanadu in the record books of historic leadership failures in software development.

[Blawpaw]

This article has some mighty nice points made in it.

https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/09/28/the-evolution-of-ethereum/

Deez are muh favorites.

we suffered roughly $9m in lost potential capital , and a hiring schedule that was meant to last over three years ended up lasting a little under two (although bolstered by a “second wind” from our ETH holdings).

Or in other words, "our massive dump on polo"

Let us start off by providing an overview of the Foundation’s financial situation. Its current holdings are roughly:

200,000 CHF
1,800 BTC
2,700,000 ETH

translation, "we presold 60m eth and then front ran another 8m eth after it hit the exchanges"

And last but not least. My upmost favorite part of the Dear John Letter.

Up until fairly recently, almost all of the work that has been done on the Ethereum project has been done by subsidiaries of the foundation. In the future, however, although the foundation and its subsidiaries are going to continue to take on a strong and leading role, it will be the community that will gradually be the primary driver in making it succeed.

Because we made our money, peace bitches.

I think that what he meant was "in a way" referring that the platform will not succeed if the community doesn't push it forward to general adoption.

[tokeweed]

@spartacus

So what..  You 'judge' it as a failure...?  Already?  With the money thing, yeah..  Some money (maybe) has been squandered.  But they can't give up this early in the game.  But I fear for Buterin.  That blog shows how weak willed and weak minded he is in the face of adversity.  A lot of people are depending on him.  So he shouldn't be writing such blogs.

I don't think it's weakness, I think he's just an honest dude that had to make some decisions counter to his ethics and felt compelled to be transparent. I genuinely think this cat wants to change the world, but reality hit him in the mouth. He's not a cut throat businessman, he's a scientist and philosopher. I hope hope his message instills confidence in the ethereum project and its value will steadily grow.

I agree.  But on the contrary his blog, however well meaning, had the opposite effect in people's confidence in Ethereum.  You ever notice why Forbes 500 companies hire PR people to figure out what to say to the public and are never ever fully transparent?  Yes, to maintain its companies' share prices preventing them from crashing.

It's a school boy error on Buterin's part.  Flowery words of optimism despite this small 'blip' is the order of the day (<-- yes calling it a small blip would be a lie, but he should for the sake of the project).

[tokeweed]

And I hope Ethereum succeeds though, for Augur's sake.  I am looking forward to Augur's release hopefully before the US presidential elections.  That market should be fun. 

[benthach]

a bunch of millionaires have been made in this scam vaporware. later beeeeeaiach! lol

i already told these dumb morons again and again, these altcoins scene is nothing but scam wild wild west world
people can creating virtually anything surrounding bitcoin but they're not doing it, because it don't make them money so they're rather creating new hype for the dumb morons
people can creating third party wallet https://blockchain.info,  smart contracts for bitcoin like bithalo.org, anonymous, or anything..

talk about adoption, these scam coins have virtually 0.00000001% adoption. the purpose of these scam altcoins are hype and trading, speculation should be -99.99% profits for long term.
the hype works everytimes!
bitcoindark, dogecoin, paycoin, etheruom, bitshares... you name it. the scams work and it's not going to stop here! you all will see bitcoin 3.0 and bitcoin 4.0..... these scam works everytimes!

[prophetx]

what a bunch of whiners you all have become LOL

[tokeweed]

what a bunch of whiners you all have become LOL

This is true.  So many whiners in these parts.

[r0ach]

people can creating virtually anything surrounding bitcoin but they're not doing it, because it don't make them money

Why would they though?  Lots of people bought Bitcoin really cheap (Max Keiser), so now you're supposed to do a bunch of work on top of Bitcoin to make rich people more rich instead of attempting to make yourself rich?

You can't really fault them trying.  Just stop trying to classify Vitalik as the pope or something.  He pulled a typical Bobsurplus scam.

[tokeweed]

people can creating virtually anything surrounding bitcoin but they're not doing it, because it don't make them money

Why would they though?  Lots of people bought Bitcoin really cheap (Max Keiser), so now you're supposed to do a bunch of work on top of Bitcoin to make rich people more rich instead of attempting to make yourself rich?

You can't really fault them trying.  Just stop trying to classify Vitalik as the pope or something.  He pulled a typical Bobsurplus scam.

Same can be said to lots of other individuals in crypto.  BCNext, Bytemaster, Jed McCaleb, Evan.. etc etc..

[benthach]

people can creating virtually anything surrounding bitcoin but they're not doing it, because it don't make them money

Why would they though?  Lots of people bought Bitcoin really cheap (Max Keiser), so now you're supposed to do a bunch of work on top of Bitcoin to make rich people more rich instead of attempting to make yourself rich?

You can't really fault them trying.  Just stop trying to classify Vitalik as the pope or something.  He pulled a typical Bobsurplus scam.

i have never praise anyone in this forum beside satoshi. vilatik is just another opportunist scammer just like anyone else in this altcoins scam scene.

[tokeweed]

people can creating virtually anything surrounding bitcoin but they're not doing it, because it don't make them money

Why would they though?  Lots of people bought Bitcoin really cheap (Max Keiser), so now you're supposed to do a bunch of work on top of Bitcoin to make rich people more rich instead of attempting to make yourself rich?

You can't really fault them trying.  Just stop trying to classify Vitalik as the pope or something.  He pulled a typical Bobsurplus scam.

i have never praise anyone in this forum beside satoshi. vilatik is just another opportunist scammer just like anyone else in this altcoins scam scene.

Ok..  Besides Buterin, who do you think are the other 'scammers' in the Crypto 2.0 scene?

[benthach]

people can creating virtually anything surrounding bitcoin but they're not doing it, because it don't make them money

Why would they though?  Lots of people bought Bitcoin really cheap (Max Keiser), so now you're supposed to do a bunch of work on top of Bitcoin to make rich people more rich instead of attempting to make yourself rich?

You can't really fault them trying.  Just stop trying to classify Vitalik as the pope or something.  He pulled a typical Bobsurplus scam.

i have never praise anyone in this forum beside satoshi. vilatik is just another opportunist scammer just like anyone else in this altcoins scam scene.

Ok..  Besides Buterin, who do you think are the other 'scammers' in the Crypto 2.0 scene?

everyone. there is no reason for crypto 2.0, crypto 3.0, or crypto 4.0, they're all opportunist looking to make money out of dumb morons
like i said again and again, people can creating virtually anything surround bitcoin but they don't because it don't make them money

[tokeweed]

people can creating virtually anything surrounding bitcoin but they're not doing it, because it don't make them money

Why would they though?  Lots of people bought Bitcoin really cheap (Max Keiser), so now you're supposed to do a bunch of work on top of Bitcoin to make rich people more rich instead of attempting to make yourself rich?

You can't really fault them trying.  Just stop trying to classify Vitalik as the pope or something.  He pulled a typical Bobsurplus scam.

i have never praise anyone in this forum beside satoshi. vilatik is just another opportunist scammer just like anyone else in this altcoins scam scene.

Ok..  Besides Buterin, who do you think are the other 'scammers' in the Crypto 2.0 scene?

everyone. there is no reason for crypto 2.0, crypto 3.0, or crypto 4.0, they're all opportunist looking to make money out of dumb morons
like i said again and again, people can creating virtually anything surround bitcoin.

I get what you're saying.  But what do you think of Bytemaster of Bitshares?  Is he an opportunist scammer too?  I mean honestly...

[benthach]

i already answered

[tokeweed]

i already answered

What makes you think Bitshares is a scam?  They clearly have a nice looking project.  Arguably better than BTC technically depending on how you see it imo.

[benthach]

i already answered

What makes you think Bitshares is a scam?  They clearly have a nice looking project.  Arguably better than BTC technically depending on how you see it imo.

you can get some bitshares and play with yourself or other 10 people. adoption, adoption, chance for bitshares adoption = 0.00000%

[tokeweed]

i already answered

What makes you think Bitshares is a scam?  They clearly have a nice looking project.  Arguably better than BTC technically depending on how you see it imo.

you can get some bitshares and play with yourself or other 10 people. adoption, adoption, chance for bitshares adoption = 0.00000%

That doesn't make it a scam.

[smooth]

i already answered

What makes you think Bitshares is a scam?  They clearly have a nice looking project.  Arguably better than BTC technically depending on how you see it imo.

you can get some bitshares and play with yourself or other 10 people. adoption, adoption, chance for bitshares adoption = 0.00000%

That doesn't make it a scam.

It sort of does in the sense that you are playing greater fool where someone is inevitably left holding the bag if there isn't actual adoption at the end of the story.

I don't take as hard a line on it as benthach does, and I think some alt projects are actually trying to achieve that adoption, but I also think there is a huge portion of this scene that is effectively a massively multiplayer online gambling game where whoever sells last (or not at all) loses.

[tokeweed]

i already answered

What makes you think Bitshares is a scam?  They clearly have a nice looking project.  Arguably better than BTC technically depending on how you see it imo.

you can get some bitshares and play with yourself or other 10 people. adoption, adoption, chance for bitshares adoption = 0.00000%

That doesn't make it a scam.

It sort of does in the sense that you are playing greater fool where someone is inevitably left holding the bag if there isn't actual adoption at the end of the story.

I don't take as hard a line on it as benthach does, and I think some alt projects are actually trying to achieve that adoption, but I also think there is a huge portion of this scene that is effectively a massively multiplayer online gambling game where whoever sells last (or not at all) loses.

So Bitcoin could be called the same thing if there weren't enough users?

Nice avatar btw.  

[benthach]

i already answered

What makes you think Bitshares is a scam?  They clearly have a nice looking project.  Arguably better than BTC technically depending on how you see it imo.

you can get some bitshares and play with yourself or other 10 people. adoption, adoption, chance for bitshares adoption = 0.00000%

That doesn't make it a scam.

if you don't know 100% developer/s usually making money and first one to get out, this is considered opportunist scam pyramid in my book. this will continue on and on.

[smooth]

i already answered

What makes you think Bitshares is a scam?  They clearly have a nice looking project.  Arguably better than BTC technically depending on how you see it imo.

you can get some bitshares and play with yourself or other 10 people. adoption, adoption, chance for bitshares adoption = 0.00000%

That doesn't make it a scam.

It sort of does in the sense that you are playing greater fool where someone is inevitably left holding the bag if there isn't actual adoption at the end of the story.

I don't take as hard a line on it as benthach does, and I think some alt projects are actually trying to achieve that adoption, but I also think there is a huge portion of this scene that is effectively a massively multiplayer online gambling game where whoever sells last (or not at all) loses.

So Bitcoin could be called the same thing if there weren't enough users?

Nice avatar btw. 

It could, somewhat. I view it as less so because when Bitcoin was launched there was no precedent that it would ever have any monetary value at all. There were no markets to trade on. The concept of a crypto investor didn't even exist. Today (and especially in 2013-2014) it is much, much easier to just be an opportunist.

[tokeweed]

i already answered

What makes you think Bitshares is a scam?  They clearly have a nice looking project.  Arguably better than BTC technically depending on how you see it imo.

you can get some bitshares and play with yourself or other 10 people. adoption, adoption, chance for bitshares adoption = 0.00000%

That doesn't make it a scam.

if you don't know 100% developer/s usually making money and first one to get out, this is considered opportunist scam pyramid in my book. this will continue on and on.

But Bytemaster is still with the project he started and is still trying to create new stuff in crypto development pushing the envelop.  And that's the thing, how can you call him a "scammer" in the same sense as Bobsurplus is a real scammer.

[DecentralizeEconomics]

people can creating virtually anything surrounding bitcoin but they're not doing it, because it don't make them money

Why would they though?  Lots of people bought Bitcoin really cheap (Max Keiser), so now you're supposed to do a bunch of work on top of Bitcoin to make rich people more rich instead of attempting to make yourself rich?

You can't really fault them trying.  Just stop trying to classify Vitalik as the pope or something.  He pulled a typical Bobsurplus scam.

Same can be said to lots of other individuals in crypto.  BCNext, Bytemaster, Jed McCaleb, Evan.. etc etc..

Really?  He collected 21 Bitcoins @ ~$120 USD and didn't even get a stake.

i already answered

What makes you think Bitshares is a scam?  They clearly have a nice looking project.  Arguably better than BTC technically depending on how you see it imo.

you can get some bitshares and play with yourself or other 10 people. adoption, adoption, chance for bitshares adoption = 0.00000%

That doesn't make it a scam.

if you don't know 100% developer/s usually making money and first one to get out, this is considered opportunist scam pyramid in my book. this will continue on and on.

But Bytemaster is still with the project he started and is still trying to create new stuff in crypto development pushing the envelop.  And that's the thing, how can you call him a "scammer" in the same sense as Bobsurplus is a real scammer.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,17354.0.html

I may also seize brownie points from any account if you fall out of favor and anyone who complains in any way about how Brownie Points are issued or how I use Brownie Points is certainly not in my favor and may lose any Brownie Points they have earned.  -Bytemaster, Dan Larimer

[tokeweed]

i already answered

What makes you think Bitshares is a scam?  They clearly have a nice looking project.  Arguably better than BTC technically depending on how you see it imo.

you can get some bitshares and play with yourself or other 10 people. adoption, adoption, chance for bitshares adoption = 0.00000%

That doesn't make it a scam.

It sort of does in the sense that you are playing greater fool where someone is inevitably left holding the bag if there isn't actual adoption at the end of the story.

I don't take as hard a line on it as benthach does, and I think some alt projects are actually trying to achieve that adoption, but I also think there is a huge portion of this scene that is effectively a massively multiplayer online gambling game where whoever sells last (or not at all) loses.

So Bitcoin could be called the same thing if there weren't enough users?

Nice avatar btw. 

It could, somewhat. I view it as less so because when Bitcoin was launched there was no precedent that it would ever have any monetary value at all. There were no markets to trade on. The concept of a crypto investor didn't even exist. Today (and especially in 2013-2014) it is much, much easier to just be an opportunist.

True true.  But do you honestly think Buterin started Ethereum with a malicious plan to scam people out of their money from the beginning?

[tokeweed]

people can creating virtually anything surrounding bitcoin but they're not doing it, because it don't make them money

Why would they though?  Lots of people bought Bitcoin really cheap (Max Keiser), so now you're supposed to do a bunch of work on top of Bitcoin to make rich people more rich instead of attempting to make yourself rich?

You can't really fault them trying.  Just stop trying to classify Vitalik as the pope or something.  He pulled a typical Bobsurplus scam.

Same can be said to lots of other individuals in crypto.  BCNext, Bytemaster, Jed McCaleb, Evan.. etc etc..

Really?  He collected 21 Bitcoins @ ~$120 USD and didn't even get a stake.

i already answered

What makes you think Bitshares is a scam?  They clearly have a nice looking project.  Arguably better than BTC technically depending on how you see it imo.

you can get some bitshares and play with yourself or other 10 people. adoption, adoption, chance for bitshares adoption = 0.00000%

That doesn't make it a scam.

if you don't know 100% developer/s usually making money and first one to get out, this is considered opportunist scam pyramid in my book. this will continue on and on.

But Bytemaster is still with the project he started and is still trying to create new stuff in crypto development pushing the envelop.  And that's the thing, how can you call him a "scammer" in the same sense as Bobsurplus is a real scammer.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,17354.0.html

I may also seize brownie points from any account if you fall out of favor and anyone who complains in any way about how Brownie Points are issued or how I use Brownie Points is certainly not in my favor and may lose any Brownie Points they have earned.  -Bytemaster, Dan Larimer

Bah.  I know you know what I mean...  Some people just have it in black or white where they classify Buterin and Bobsurplus in the same type of people (scammers) and refuse to look at the situation more closely and refuse to accept the fact that it is more complicated than that.  Mentioning those names was more like expressing a rhetoric rather than outright saying "Hey these people are scammers too."

[smooth]

i already answered

What makes you think Bitshares is a scam?  They clearly have a nice looking project.  Arguably better than BTC technically depending on how you see it imo.

you can get some bitshares and play with yourself or other 10 people. adoption, adoption, chance for bitshares adoption = 0.00000%

That doesn't make it a scam.

It sort of does in the sense that you are playing greater fool where someone is inevitably left holding the bag if there isn't actual adoption at the end of the story.

I don't take as hard a line on it as benthach does, and I think some alt projects are actually trying to achieve that adoption, but I also think there is a huge portion of this scene that is effectively a massively multiplayer online gambling game where whoever sells last (or not at all) loses.

So Bitcoin could be called the same thing if there weren't enough users?

Nice avatar btw. 

It could, somewhat. I view it as less so because when Bitcoin was launched there was no precedent that it would ever have any monetary value at all. There were no markets to trade on. The concept of a crypto investor didn't even exist. Today (and especially in 2013-2014) it is much, much easier to just be an opportunist.

True true.  But do you honestly think Buterin started Ethereum with a malicious plan to scam people out of their money from the beginning?

Words like "malicious" and "scam" are really subjective. I do think he started it with the intent to take a lot of investors money and put it in his and his friends' pockets, while not really making a solemn commitment to be a good custodian of the investors'  money and deliver what was promised (and not treat the money as his personal playground to spend on and work on whatever the hell he felt like). And in the end that is exactly how it has worked out.

I don't think he intended to just take the money and run, delivering nothing at all. That's also consistent with how it worked out.

So, scam, or not scam. Malicious or not malicious. Everyone can decide individually how to characterize it.

[tokeweed]

i already answered

What makes you think Bitshares is a scam?  They clearly have a nice looking project.  Arguably better than BTC technically depending on how you see it imo.

you can get some bitshares and play with yourself or other 10 people. adoption, adoption, chance for bitshares adoption = 0.00000%

That doesn't make it a scam.

It sort of does in the sense that you are playing greater fool where someone is inevitably left holding the bag if there isn't actual adoption at the end of the story.

I don't take as hard a line on it as benthach does, and I think some alt projects are actually trying to achieve that adoption, but I also think there is a huge portion of this scene that is effectively a massively multiplayer online gambling game where whoever sells last (or not at all) loses.

So Bitcoin could be called the same thing if there weren't enough users?

Nice avatar btw.  

It could, somewhat. I view it as less so because when Bitcoin was launched there was no precedent that it would ever have any monetary value at all. There were no markets to trade on. The concept of a crypto investor didn't even exist. Today (and especially in 2013-2014) it is much, much easier to just be an opportunist.

True true.  But do you honestly think Buterin started Ethereum with a malicious plan to scam people out of their money from the beginning?

Words like "malicious" and "scam" are really subjective. I do think he started it with the intent to take a lot of investors money and put it in his and his friends' pocket, while not really making a solemn commitment to be a good custodian of the investors'  money and deliver what was promised (and not treat the money as his personal playground to spend on and work on whatever the hell he felt like). And in the end that is exactly how it has worked out.

I don't think he intended to just take the money and run, delivering nothing at all. That's also consistent with how it worked out.

So, scam, or not scam. Malicious or not malicious. Everyone can decide individually how to characterize it.

So he scammed people without making it look like an outright scam.  What is the state of the project btw?

Edit:  Don't answer that.  I'll make a new thread asking how the frontier release is, and how it was received.  Or I'll just do my own research and go through their forum if I'm not lazy.  Anyway, nice talk.  You have opened my eyes to the possibility that there could be a new category of scumbag in crypto.  And it could be the lowest of the low at that.

Thanks.

[smooth]

i already answered

What makes you think Bitshares is a scam?  They clearly have a nice looking project.  Arguably better than BTC technically depending on how you see it imo.

you can get some bitshares and play with yourself or other 10 people. adoption, adoption, chance for bitshares adoption = 0.00000%

That doesn't make it a scam.

It sort of does in the sense that you are playing greater fool where someone is inevitably left holding the bag if there isn't actual adoption at the end of the story.

I don't take as hard a line on it as benthach does, and I think some alt projects are actually trying to achieve that adoption, but I also think there is a huge portion of this scene that is effectively a massively multiplayer online gambling game where whoever sells last (or not at all) loses.

So Bitcoin could be called the same thing if there weren't enough users?

Nice avatar btw. 

It could, somewhat. I view it as less so because when Bitcoin was launched there was no precedent that it would ever have any monetary value at all. There were no markets to trade on. The concept of a crypto investor didn't even exist. Today (and especially in 2013-2014) it is much, much easier to just be an opportunist.

True true.  But do you honestly think Buterin started Ethereum with a malicious plan to scam people out of their money from the beginning?

Words like "malicious" and "scam" are really subjective. I do think he started it with the intent to take a lot of investors money and put it in his and his friends' pocket, while not really making a solemn commitment to be a good custodian of the investors'  money and deliver what was promised (and not treat the money as his personal playground to spend on and work on whatever the hell he felt like). And in the end that is exactly how it has worked out.

I don't think he intended to just take the money and run, delivering nothing at all. That's also consistent with how it worked out.

So, scam, or not scam. Malicious or not malicious. Everyone can decide individually how to characterize it.

So he scammed people without making it look like an outright scam.  What is the state of the project btw?

Edit:  Don't answer that.  I'll make a new thread asking how the frontier release is, and how it was received.  Or I'll just do my own research and go through their forum if I'm not lazy.  Anyway, nice talk.  You have opened my eyes to the possibility that there could be a new category of scumbag in crypto.  And it could be the lowest of the low at that.

Thanks.

The state of the project is pretty well covered in the OP on this thread (and linked blog post).

I think a lot of the blame for the mess that it turned into lies with the investors who basically did a "Shut up and take my money". There was very little scrutiny of the "plan". Nobody seemed to care that there was no real governance, little in the way of strong, deep, experienced, or accountable management to go along with the $20 million budget or whatever they got.

When you give matches to toddlers to play with, don't act all surprised when the house burns down. (This wasn't intended as a dig at Vitalik's age either, although reading it that way is not terrible.)

[monsanto]

"REPEAT AFTER ME. IT WAS NOT AN INITIAL PURCHASE OFFERING. YOU COULD ONLY INITIALLY PURCHASE ETH DURING THE OFFERING."

LOL..

Jesus.. 31,000 BTC just doesn't seem to go very far now adays.. Makes me feel a little 'sick' actually.

Personally, I just don't think there is a large enough TECHNICAL Community who could take ethereum to this POS point Vitalik speaks of.. Sorry.

If they don't 'Finish' it.. whatever that means, someone else will start something new, learn from their MANY mistakes, and try again. (Less Feature Creep next time please..)

What I am curious about is this - they have already included the exponential POW algo that will make POW un-tenable in 12 months, this was to ensure there is a switch to POS, but now he is saying they won't be able to do this..

Will they remove that code ?

Or is there a gun to our heads with a clock tick-tocking away next to us.. 

Yeah, seems kind of odd to do it this way. They already knew they ran behind schedule with Frontier launch by what? six months or a year or something? Knowing how badly they misjudged how long that would take, they then decide to put in a mandatory self-destruct deadline for POW? 

[prophetx]

because when Satoshi released the first btc client it was bug proof, security audited and ready for bank adoption and there was soon a crowd sale taking in millions using the currency.

as an aside some of you guys sound like you work on the local street corner asking for hand outs. which only says to me BTC and the rest need to stay depressed for at least another year just to wash you all out.

can't wait for the new blood to come in.

[JacksonBriggs]

because when Satoshi released the first btc client it was bug proof, security audited and ready for bank adoption and there was soon a crowd sale taking in millions using the currency.

as an aside some of you guys sound like you work on the local street corner asking for hand outs. which only says to me BTC and the rest need to stay depressed for at least another year just to wash you all out.

can't wait for the new blood to come in.

People have been waiting for new blood for a couple years now. Currently its the same folks selling the same shit back and forth to each other.

[rnicoll]

can't wait for the new blood to come in.

So what are we doing to actually make cryptocurrencies interesting to new people? So far everyone seems to insist we'll all be rich as soon as someone comes along and actually makes Bitcoin useful, very few people are actually trying to make it useful.

[isvicre]

He's very clear about the situation. Basically he's saying "We scammed you, now go find other developers who want to scam you more."
Only if you have more money though.
What a smart guy, he became rich before he legally go to concerts, clubs and even buy alcohol.

[crypto jerk]

I hate to say I told yall so, but.....

This one was so easy to spot. Let me give another hint.

Goldmansachs was involved and they are crooks.


Goldmansachs was involved and they are crooks.


Goldmansachs was involved and they are crooks.


Goldmansachs was involved and they are crooks.

Goldmansachs was involved and they are crooks.

[monsanto]

can't wait for the new blood fools to come in.

fixed that for you 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory

[NattyLiteCoin]

because when Satoshi released the first btc client it was bug proof, security audited and ready for bank adoption and there was soon a crowd sale taking in millions using the currency.

as an aside some of you guys sound like you work on the local street corner asking for hand outs. which only says to me BTC and the rest need to stay depressed for at least another year just to wash you all out.

can't wait for the new blood to come in.

Pretty much this. Barely anyone cares about what is actually trying to be accomplished here. Not just in Ethereum, but the whole movement initiated by Satoshi. Anyone who thinks Vitalik, himself, is a scammer is just nuts in my opinion. Dude's boarder line idiot savant; I see people who really care about what Ethereum (or NXT or SUPERNET) is trying to accomplish would be right by investing in it. Just me, but I don't see what joy some of you take in saying "HAHA SCAM, HAHA".

Guess what? The majority of the aforementioned don't contribute a baker's fuck to crypto. At all.

And they know it. Keep up the good work guys!

[tss]

all this time.. all these promises of innovation.   all this money.  still you have nothing to date to show for it but hype of the evolution, innovation and revolution coming from etherium.  give this coin to bob the builder and you will have a launched project in 3 months.  but i guess its a long con not a short one with this one. 

[JReag]

because when Satoshi released the first btc client it was bug proof, security audited and ready for bank adoption and there was soon a crowd sale taking in millions using the currency.

as an aside some of you guys sound like you work on the local street corner asking for hand outs. which only says to me BTC and the rest need to stay depressed for at least another year just to wash you all out.

can't wait for the new blood to come in.

Pretty much this. Barely anyone cares about what is actually trying to be accomplished here. Not just in Ethereum, but the whole movement initiated by Satoshi. Anyone who thinks Vitalik, himself, is a scammer is just nuts in my opinion. Dude's boarder line idiot savant; I see people who really care about what Ethereum (or NXT or SUPERNET) is trying to accomplish would be right by investing in it. Just me, but I don't see what joy some of you take in saying "HAHA SCAM, HAHA".

Guess what? The majority of the aforementioned don't contribute a baker's fuck to crypto. At all.

And they know it. Keep up the good work guys!

Most people are here because they want to "get munny nd talk shjit"

I for one welcome the depressed prices, gives me more time to spread my porfolio - even to precious metals such as Gold. In a way, I guess I'll have to thank them all, later, of course.

[RealBitcoin]

So any speculations about ETH future?

Will they pull their exit scam soon? What will happen? I need answers *grab popcorn*

[smoothie]

So any speculations about ETH future?

Will they pull their exit scam soon? What will happen? I need answers *grab popcorn*

To fund their 340,000 CHF monthly budget for the next 12 months they will be massively selling ETH.
That is one way things are headed.

[onemorexmr]

So any speculations about ETH future?

Will they pull their exit scam soon? What will happen? I need answers *grab popcorn*

To fund their 340,000 CHF monthly budget for the next 12 months they will be massively selling ETH.
That is one way things are headed.

what are they doing with 340,000 CHF MONTHLY?
that amount is insane...

[defaced]

So any speculations about ETH future?

Will they pull their exit scam soon? What will happen? I need answers *grab popcorn*

To fund their 340,000 CHF monthly budget for the next 12 months they will be massively selling ETH.
That is one way things are headed.

what are they doing with 340,000 CHF MONTHLY?
that amount is insane...

well they now have a renewed interest in transparency so, maybe they will let folks know.

[eizh]

So any speculations about ETH future?

Will they pull their exit scam soon? What will happen? I need answers *grab popcorn*

To fund their 340,000 CHF monthly budget for the next 12 months they will be massively selling ETH.
That is one way things are headed.

what are they doing with 340,000 CHF MONTHLY?
that amount is insane...

Mistake #1: locating yourself in the world's most expensive country.

[Piston Honda]

buy some $WBB (using 1EX.Trade) with that CHF, the dev is based in switz, get in touch with him if you like! 

[onemorexmr]

So any speculations about ETH future?

Will they pull their exit scam soon? What will happen? I need answers *grab popcorn*

To fund their 340,000 CHF monthly budget for the next 12 months they will be massively selling ETH.
That is one way things are headed.

what are they doing with 340,000 CHF MONTHLY?
that amount is insane...

Mistake #1: locating yourself in the world's most expensive country.

well swiss is only about 150km from here.. i know its not THAT expensive

[smooth]

So any speculations about ETH future?

Will they pull their exit scam soon? What will happen? I need answers *grab popcorn*

To fund their 340,000 CHF monthly budget for the next 12 months they will be massively selling ETH.
That is one way things are headed.

what are they doing with 340,000 CHF MONTHLY?
that amount is insane...

Just have a look at the 'transparent accounting'.

We will have transparent accounting

[onemorexmr]

So any speculations about ETH future?

Will they pull their exit scam soon? What will happen? I need answers *grab popcorn*

To fund their 340,000 CHF monthly budget for the next 12 months they will be massively selling ETH.
That is one way things are headed.

what are they doing with 340,000 CHF MONTHLY?
that amount is insane...

Just have a look at the 'transparent accounting'.

We will have transparent accounting

a found it... thank you
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/39ujsp/founder_salaries/

they REALLY deserve it _NOT!

[rdnkjdi]

So what are we doing to actually make cryptocurrencies interesting to new people? So far everyone seems to insist we'll all be rich as soon as someone comes along and actually makes Bitcoin useful, very few people are actually trying to make it useful.

Quite frankly, I think the limited supply which forces early adopters to get rich if it's successful has created a crowd so aweful no one wants to deal with it.

Back on topic.  I followed Ethereum from the start and actually was able to recover some massive crypto losses that I should have never had in the market in a hail mary throw on the project.  I STILL find it interesting and they have done a better job on most fronts than any other 2.0 coin.  From marketing to people outside the crypto community to plotting out user friendly software (mining Ethereum is a dream compared to what litecoin ever was).  I'm interested / excited to see where the project goes.

But three massive failures.  Transparency.  Scope creep.  Distribution.  Tual left left when Vitalik payed out what he'd promised early adopters without consulting the foundation (and started a hissyfit publicly on reddit ... what kind of PR guy does that?)   Frankly I liked Charles much better - his original vision of Ethereum was what made it interesting to me.  If I'd seen it marketed as dApps in the beginning and then understood that marketing was on top of a virtual machine no more powerful than a smartphone for all users I would have rolled my eyes.  

This bringing a Chinese auto company with a 50mil angel fund for crypto 2.0 is no less than bizarre to me.  A bank or any number of institutions I could understand but I read the history of the company.  Maybe someone's rich kid who has an interest in crypto?=

[RealBitcoin]

Just have a look at the 'transparent accounting'.

We will have transparent accounting

Well if they would work really hard on the ETH project and would be very dedicated, then they would have settled with low salary and use the rest of the funds to promote ETH, or finance conferences.

Instead they just keep hyping the coin with useful idiots, while they funnel all the cash away in their pockets. It is so classical 

I mean they dont hire rocket scientists that need huge salary to keep them loyal, these are just average programmers, thant dont need to be that greedy.

[benthach]

So what are we doing to actually make cryptocurrencies interesting to new people? So far everyone seems to insist we'll all be rich as soon as someone comes along and actually makes Bitcoin useful, very few people are actually trying to make it useful.

Quite frankly, I think the limited supply which forces early adopters to get rich if it's successful has created a crowd so aweful no one wants to deal with it.

Back on topic.  I followed Ethereum from the start and actually was able to recover some massive crypto losses that I should have never had in the market in a hail mary throw on the project.  I STILL find it interesting and they have done a better job on most fronts than any other 2.0 coin.  From marketing to people outside the crypto community to plotting out user friendly software (mining Ethereum is a dream compared to what litecoin ever was).  I'm interested / excited to see where the project goes.

But three massive failures.  Transparency.  Scope creep.  Distribution.  Tual left left when Vitalik payed out what he'd promised early adopters without consulting the foundation (and started a hissyfit publicly on reddit ... what kind of PR guy does that?)   Frankly I liked Charles much better - his original vision of Ethereum was what made it interesting to me.  If I'd seen it marketed as dApps in the beginning and then understood that marketing was on top of a virtual machine no more powerful than a smartphone for all users I would have rolled my eyes.  

This bringing a Chinese auto company with a 50mil angel fund for crypto 2.0 is no less than bizarre to me.  A bank or any number of institutions I could understand but I read the history of the company.  Maybe someone's rich kid who has an interest in crypto?=

ah, homeless now became millionaire. thanks to all the dumb morons out there for the support! lol
working hard for a few years by going around spreading nonsense hype craps(all this nonsense can be done with simple java) to all the bitcoin conventions, now became millionaire. not bad, work hard, travel hard paid off. easy to find niches and holes in this scam hype altcoin world.

just find a niche and hole, work hard a bit to creating hype then everyone can become a millionaire just like this person in this dumb scam and hype world. we all know all these coding with no adoption worthless crap is way to became rich! very very easy!