Set-up to run up to 25 ASIC units

[jjshabadoo]

So I'm trying to get my mind around what the best set-up would be for up to 25 ASIC units. Either the BFL SC singles or bASIC.

I have some people who want to buy some units and have me host them.

So let's say you have about 100 watt draw for each unit on average.

Could you run 25 of these units with a laptop that has an i7 quad core cpu, 8gb ram and a 128GB ssd ?

What about USB bandwith ? Can you use a couple high quality usb hubs or will they have bandwith issues ?

Would you run 5 750watt seasonic gold PSUs or could you use 2 1250watt seasonic gold PSUs ?

Or is it better to just add on 5 of these to 5 existing GPU rigs and run separate mining clients ?

[1715306321]

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[CoinHoarder]

So I'm trying to get my mind around what the best set-up would be for up to 25 ASIC units. Either the BFL SC singles or bASIC.

I have some people who want to buy some units and have me host them.

So let's say you have about 100 watt draw for each unit on average.

Could you run 25 of these units with a laptop that has an i7 quad core cpu, 8gb ram and a 128GB ssd ?

What about USB bandwith ? Can you use a couple high quality usb hubs or will they have bandwith issues ?

Would you run 5 750watt seasonic gold PSUs or could you use 2 1250watt seasonic gold PSUs ?

Or is it better to just add on 5 of these to 5 existing GPU rigs and run separate mining clients ?

I can't answer everything, but I can try to answer a couple things.

1. I think it's unnecessary to get a solid state hard drive. You will hardly be using the HD, the only thing it would speed up would be installation of software, boot up, etc... no need for it to be that fast to mine. Any normal HD should do.

2. As long as you use powered USB hubs, you can hook up to 144 devices on each computer USB port. Two USB hubs are not necessary, one would do just fine. The only reason I can think of to use two hubs would be to make it more stable (1 USB hub dies, all asics go down.... but if you have 2, only half of them will.) Just make sure to shop around and read reviews. Some hubs are super cheap.

3. An i7 is a little overkill also IMO, computers hardly use the CPU much. Hit cntrl-alt-delete and check out your CPU usage. It's probably sitting around 1-2% if you have an i7. I don't think that kind of speed is necessary. I would use a good ole Sempron, but I'm cheap like that.

4. Sorry to be redundant, but 8gb RAM seems high too. 4Gb should be fine I think.

[tHash]

To start with, if you are thinking of ASICs, then rather than get 25 singles, get a Minirig SC.   This would eliminate many of your perceived issues.

Also, make sure you are calculating returns based on a reasonable network difficulty.   The network could easily be over 1000 terrahash by time you receive your order.   ROI on orders placed now may extend to 2 years.

[jjshabadoo]

I understand the ROI, mine were ordered LONG ago. Others simply seem to want to throw their hat in for fun (like buy 1-2 units) instead of just buying bitcoins directly.

I already have the laptop and it sits there useless.

so two hubs might make sense

and probably 5 psus instead of 2 1250's (already have the psus of either type)

[Inaba]

You can run several hundred units off of a netbook.  At least BFL units, I dunno about bASIC units.

[Unacceptable]

An old PC/laptop with Win7 or linux should do just fine,single core or dual makes very little difference(lower wattage,the better IMO).Heck even just 1gig of RAM will work fine & an old drive laying around will work too,I have IDE drives of 20 gig just waiting for this  

As long as your not drawing power from the USB,144 devices (or more) is correct  

Not sure about power supplies just yet,waiting for more concrete info,BUT I know Cablez will have any adapters we may need or he'll make them up for us  

[Inaba]

I've run more than 144 on Linux via a netbook... (162 to be exact).  It started getting a little flakey after that, but there were other factors that probably contributed.  I think as long as your computer has more than 1 USB controller, you can put quite a few on one box.

[Unacceptable]

I've run more than 144 on Linux via a netbook... (162 to be exact).  It started getting a little flakey after that, but there were other factors that probably contributed.  I think as long as your computer has more than 1 USB controller, you can put quite a few on one box.

Sweet!!!!!!

[CoinHoarder]

I've run more than 144 on Linux via a netbook... (162 to be exact).  It started getting a little flakey after that, but there were other factors that probably contributed.  I think as long as your computer has more than 1 USB controller, you can put quite a few on one box.

Damn, that is impressive!

Heck even just 1gig of RAM will work fine

If you're using windows 7 64 bit, 2Gb is neccesary.

[Unacceptable]

I've run more than 144 on Linux via a netbook... (162 to be exact).  It started getting a little flakey after that, but there were other factors that probably contributed.  I think as long as your computer has more than 1 USB controller, you can put quite a few on one box.

Damn, that is impressive!

Heck even just 1gig of RAM will work fine

If you're using windows 7 64 bit, 2Gb is neccesary.

For what??

I've been using dual core AMD's (45 watt) cpu's & 1 gig RAM & an old hard drive (IDE) 20 gig & Win7 64bit Ultimate,for my mining rigs for over a year now & notice no difference in mining performance.

Now,if you plan on using that same PC for everyday web browsing or gaming,yes you'll need more.................. 

[CoinHoarder]

For what??

I've been using dual core AMD's (45 watt) cpu's & 1 gig RAM & an old hard drive (IDE) 20 gig & Win7 64bit Ultimate,for my mining rigs for over a year now & notice no difference in mining performance.

Now,if you plan on using that same PC for everyday web browsing or gaming,yes you'll need more..................  

I didn't know that, cool. The reason why I said 2Gb is necessary is because that is what M$ advertises it as a "system requirement". I guess if it works with only 1Gb, then more power to ya! Ram is cheap anyhow.

http://windows.microsoft.com/is-IS/windows7/products/system-requirements

[firefop]

For what??

I've been using dual core AMD's (45 watt) cpu's & 1 gig RAM & an old hard drive (IDE) 20 gig & Win7 64bit Ultimate,for my mining rigs for over a year now & notice no difference in mining performance.

Now,if you plan on using that same PC for everyday web browsing or gaming,yes you'll need more.................. 

For windows, x64 windows 7 uses more than a gig all by itself.

Ideally, for your mining machine you'll want at the very least 2 gigs, and that's if you plan on doing nothing else with it. Also, I would highly recommend going SSD for the simple fact that when/if your system has an issue, you can reboot it so much faster than a system with a hdd.

[pieppiep]

2. As long as you use powered USB hubs, you can hook up to 144 devices on each computer USB port. Two USB hubs are not necessary, one would do just fine. The only reason I can think of to use two hubs would be to make it more stable (1 USB hub dies, all asics go down.... but if you have 2, only half of them will.) Just make sure to shop around and read reviews. Some hubs are super cheap.

127 devices on each USB port, including the hubs.
Most 7-port hubs are 2 4-port hubs so they count for 2.
The maximum depth for chaining, connecting a hub to another hub, is 5 iirc.
So connecting a 7-port hub to a 7-port hub to a 7-port hub is possible, but you might find out what port you need to connect to.

[firefop]

2. As long as you use powered USB hubs, you can hook up to 144 devices on each computer USB port. Two USB hubs are not necessary, one would do just fine. The only reason I can think of to use two hubs would be to make it more stable (1 USB hub dies, all asics go down.... but if you have 2, only half of them will.) Just make sure to shop around and read reviews. Some hubs are super cheap.

127 devices on each USB port, including the hubs.
Most 7-port hubs are 2 4-port hubs so they count for 2.
The maximum depth for chaining, connecting a hub to another hub, is 5 iirc.
So connecting a 7-port hub to a 7-port hub to a 7-port hub is possible, but you might find out what port you need to connect to.

Also some of the bigger hubs support multiple tiers of chained smaller hubs...

I use these http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817474012

Your top chain is usb3. then it's 3x8 ports.

Anyway, you can hook 4 of these and max out a chain. Also love the buttons for controlling power on each port.


 

[Unacceptable]

For what??

I've been using dual core AMD's (45 watt) cpu's & 1 gig RAM & an old hard drive (IDE) 20 gig & Win7 64bit Ultimate,for my mining rigs for over a year now & notice no difference in mining performance.

Now,if you plan on using that same PC for everyday web browsing or gaming,yes you'll need more.................. 

For windows, x64 windows 7 uses more than a gig all by itself.

Ideally, for your mining machine you'll want at the very least 2 gigs, and that's if you plan on doing nothing else with it. Also, I would highly recommend going SSD for the simple fact that when/if your system has an issue, you can reboot it so much faster than a system with a hdd.

Well,for my instance,I used older AMD 5050e 2.6 ghz,dual core CPU's (cheaper & lower wattage).I had a DDR2 mobo & RAM on hand.Also DDR2 RAM is more expensive than DDR3.

I have had no issues whatsoever using only 1 gig for my mining rigs,so MS is wrong,period.

As for SSD,they are $1 per gig or more,where as standard drives are about .20 cents per gig...........why spend extra cash if your trying to SAVE money 

BUT,if you are going to do ANYTHING else on that PC,yes at least 2 gig,preferably 4-6 gig is necessary for best performance of your OS & PC 

[jjshabadoo]

Good stuff and thanks to all.

I was confused by some other posts here about how much information(hashes) the ASIC devices will performing and if this could over-ride the bandwith or capability of the USB ports.

I like things to be concise so I was looking into one of those mondo hubs and then figured I'd buy one to keep in reserve in case it fails.

I also have a microcenter very close to me now so I am pretty psyched! Easy to get parts now for cheap rather than wait for newegg, etc.

I am also figuring for load and efficiency purposes I should use the 5 750 watt psu's.

[smoothie]

I've run more than 144 on Linux via a netbook... (162 to be exact).  It started getting a little flakey after that, but there were other factors that probably contributed.  I think as long as your computer has more than 1 USB controller, you can put quite a few on one box.

164 separate units?

Got some pix? I'd like to see that.

[Inaba]

No, I have split that unit into two separate computers because it was a bit unstable.  Although I have since found out that USB3 is the ultimate culprit of that instability.  It seems that plugging in a massive number of devices to a USB3 port freaks it out and they go into a connect/disconnect cycle, whereas connecting the same number of devices to a USB2 port works just fine.

This post shows the devices: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/267-How-many-Minirigs-(not-SC)-are-out-there?p=3815&viewfull=1#post3815  But they hooked up to two separate machines now instead of 1.  There are about 240 devices in that picture (not counting the 120 on the right, which are connected to a separate set of machines), so they are split roughly evenly between two machines, both at around 120 something each.

[pieppiep]

I don't want to login on a forum I won't use just to see a picture.

[RHA]

This post shows the devices: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/267-How-many-Minirigs-(not-SC)-are-out-there?p=3815&viewfull=1#post3815 
(...)  There are about 240 devices in that picture (...).

Inaba, there are 18 mini-rigs at the picture, not 240 singles. Correct the link.

[Unacceptable]

This post shows the devices: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/267-How-many-Minirigs-(not-SC)-are-out-there?p=3815&viewfull=1#post3815
(...)  There are about 240 devices in that picture (...).

Inaba, there are 18 mini-rigs at the picture, not 240 singles. Correct the link.

Uh,there's 17-20 little "Singles" in each rig,rounded off to 18each x 18rigs =324 little "Singles"  

& yes,I believe you can see each one in CGminer or BFGminer 

[MrTeal]

For what??

I've been using dual core AMD's (45 watt) cpu's & 1 gig RAM & an old hard drive (IDE) 20 gig & Win7 64bit Ultimate,for my mining rigs for over a year now & notice no difference in mining performance.

Now,if you plan on using that same PC for everyday web browsing or gaming,yes you'll need more.................. 

Well,for my instance,I used older AMD 5050e 2.6 ghz,dual core CPU's (cheaper & lower wattage).I had a DDR2 mobo & RAM on hand.Also DDR2 RAM is more expensive than DDR3.

I have had no issues whatsoever using only 1 gig for my mining rigs,so MS is wrong,period.

As for SSD,they are $1 per gig or more,where as standard drives are about .20 cents per gig...........why spend extra cash if your trying to SAVE money 

BUT,if you are going to do ANYTHING else on that PC,yes at least 2 gig,preferably 4-6 gig is necessary for best performance of your OS & PC 

Why would you pay the extra for Ultimate if it's just a low power mining rig?

[crazyates]

For what??

I've been using dual core AMD's (45 watt) cpu's & 1 gig RAM & an old hard drive (IDE) 20 gig & Win7 64bit Ultimate,for my mining rigs for over a year now & notice no difference in mining performance.

Now,if you plan on using that same PC for everyday web browsing or gaming,yes you'll need more.................. 

Well,for my instance,I used older AMD 5050e 2.6 ghz,dual core CPU's (cheaper & lower wattage).I had a DDR2 mobo & RAM on hand.Also DDR2 RAM is more expensive than DDR3.

I have had no issues whatsoever using only 1 gig for my mining rigs,so MS is wrong,period.

As for SSD,they are $1 per gig or more,where as standard drives are about .20 cents per gig...........why spend extra cash if your trying to SAVE money 

BUT,if you are going to do ANYTHING else on that PC,yes at least 2 gig,preferably 4-6 gig is necessary for best performance of your OS & PC 

Why would you pay the extra for Ultimate if it's just a low power mining rig?

I'm betting he cut pennies everywhere he could. 

[MrTeal]

Why would you pay the extra for Ultimate if it's just a low power mining rig?

I'm betting he cut pennies everywhere he could. 

You're not suggesting what I think you are, are you? That's slanderous.

[crazyates]

Why would you pay the extra for Ultimate if it's just a low power mining rig?

I'm betting he cut pennies everywhere he could. 

You're not suggesting what I think you are, are you? That's slanderous.

I'm not suggesting anything! 
Ok maybe I am.

[Inaba]

That's correct, each minirig holds 17 - 24 individual boards that individually enumerated on the USB bus.  That was not the original design or intent, but with the ASICs being pushed forward, development on the Minirig halted abruptly and the move to unify all the USB devices into a single device was never completed... so you basically have a framework scaffold for a bunch of super singles that run at 1400 MH/s.

[crazyates]

That's correct, each minirig holds 17 - 24 individual boards that individually enumerated on the USB bus.  That was not the original design or intent, but with the ASICs being pushed forward, development on the Minirig halted abruptly and the move to unify all the USB devices into a single device was never completed... so you basically have a framework scaffold for a bunch of super singles that run at 1400 MH/s.

Something I was always curious about: Why did we not get a Bitforce Single 2.0 that ran at this 1400MH/s? You couldn't charged like $1000+ and it'd still be worth it.

[Inaba]

We refocused on the ASICs and pretty much stopped all FPGA development.

[Unacceptable]

Why would you pay the extra for Ultimate if it's just a low power mining rig?

I'm betting he cut pennies everywhere he could. 

You're not suggesting what I think you are, are you? That's slanderous.

I found an unlimited install version of Win7 very cheap,from my PC supply guy 

[scrybe]

For windows, x64 windows 7 uses more than a gig all by itself.

Ideally, for your mining machine you'll want at the very least 2 gigs, and that's if you plan on doing nothing else with it. Also, I would highly recommend going SSD for the simple fact that when/if your system has an issue, you can reboot it so much faster than a system with a hdd.

Use 32 bit windows 7 if you want, it will work fine with 1GB RAM. In fact for 2 or 3GB you should also prefer 32 bit windows 7 over x64. This is because the memory structures are larger and you will waste about 40% of your RAM with half empty quadwords. 64 bit should only be used if you are planning on putting 4GB or more of RAM in a desktop for best results.

[firefop]

Use 32 bit windows 7 if you want, it will work fine with 1GB RAM. In fact for 2 or 3GB you should also prefer 32 bit windows 7 over x64. This is because the memory structures are larger and you will waste about 40% of your RAM with half empty quadwords. 64 bit should only be used if you are planning on putting 4GB or more of RAM in a desktop for best results.

While the 'greater effective memory use' due to empty words (when running 32 bit software) is true...

The primary reason to be in x64 is for hardware DEP.

[crazyates]

That's correct, each minirig holds 17 - 24 individual boards that individually enumerated on the USB bus.  That was not the original design or intent, but with the ASICs being pushed forward, development on the Minirig halted abruptly and the move to unify all the USB devices into a single device was never completed... so you basically have a framework scaffold for a bunch of super singles that run at 1400 MH/s.

Maybe this has been mentioned before, but will the new SC MR share this modular design? It would take 25 SC Singles to make 1.5TH/s. Is this what you guys have done?

[Inaba]

No, the intent is to have one monolithic device, but yes, it contains some slightly different Single SC with additional connectors and a few other things, including faster clock and cooling.

[crazyates]

No, the intent is to have one monolithic device, but yes, it contains some slightly different Single SC with additional connectors and a few other things, including faster clock and cooling.

Sweet. Will the MR employ water-cooling? I believe I saw a pic of a waterblock for them a while back, IIRC.

[Cablez]

Watercooled MR would be sick!   Can you even consider it to be a mini-rig anymore at 1.5TH/s?

[Unacceptable]

Watercooled MR would be sick!   Can you even consider it to be a mini-rig anymore at 1.5TH/s?

Oh noes,don't call it a MAXI Rig.....................PLEASE 

[ninjaboon]

I've run more than 144 on Linux via a netbook... (162 to be exact).  It started getting a little flakey after that, but there were other factors that probably contributed.  I think as long as your computer has more than 1 USB controller, you can put quite a few on one box.

162 BFL SC singles. wow. 

[scrybe]

Watercooled MR would be sick!   Can you even consider it to be a mini-rig anymore at 1.5TH/s?

Oh noes,don't call it a MAXI Rig.....................PLEASE 

Yep, it would have to be watercooled, and come with a pad of some sort to go under it in case it leaks. With wings or something.

Gosh it's exciting to watch excitable people be excited!

[Xfinity]

I've run more than 144 on Linux via a netbook... (162 to be exact).  It started getting a little flakey after that, but there were other factors that probably contributed.  I think as long as your computer has more than 1 USB controller, you can put quite a few on one box.

164 separate units?

Got some pix? I'd like to see that.

I would love to see that myself, would be awsome .

[Inaba]

If you mean like see them in BFGMiner or something, they won't all fit on a screen, no matter how big it is (I tried for a screenshot) ... the text got so tiny as to be illegible and it still only had about 120 on the screen.

[bitcoindaddy]

If you mean like see them in BFGMiner or something, they won't all fit on a screen, no matter how big it is (I tried for a screenshot) ... the text got so tiny as to be illegible and it still only had about 120 on the screen.

Too bad, that would have made some great miner-porn.

[Xfinity]

If you mean like see them in BFGMiner or something, they won't all fit on a screen, no matter how big it is (I tried for a screenshot) ... the text got so tiny as to be illegible and it still only had about 120 on the screen.

Too bad, that would have made some great miner-porn.

Yeah, and a great wallpaper as well .

[crazyates]

If you mean like see them in BFGMiner or something, they won't all fit on a screen, no matter how big it is (I tried for a screenshot) ... the text got so tiny as to be illegible and it still only had about 120 on the screen.

Too bad, that would have made some great miner-porn.

Yeah, and a great wallpaper as well .

The Porn? Or the BFGMiner?

[funnow]

I saw this http://www.manhattan-products.com/en-US/products/9583
So I think is the solution for your 25 ASIC units
24 USB2 and 4 USB3 so basically you have to buy 2.

[firefop]

I saw this http://www.manhattan-products.com/en-US/products/9583
So I think is the solution for your 25 ASIC units
24 USB2 and 4 USB3 so basically you have to buy 2.

I use that one myself... very good unit imo. Be aware that it is infact 2 tiers of embedded (smaller) hubs.

So the only way to max out the chain is by linking 3 of these to the 3 of the 4 usb 3.0 ports on your primary.

 

[hardcore-fs]

So I'm trying to get my mind around what the best set-up would be for up to 25 ASIC units. Either the BFL SC singles or bASIC.

What about USB bandwith ? Can you use a couple high quality usb hubs or will they have bandwith issues ?

Bandwidth has less to do with it......., since actual bandwidth is quite small, the REAL issue is the protocol.
In another post I'd recommended that the  Chinese ASIC system could potentially scale better, since they have opted to include WIFI/Ethernet.

The problem with USB is that only ONE device can be on the buss at a time AND you have to signal connection & disconnection
Which means as the number of devices grows, so does the buss collisions.
Hubs solve F*** ALL, the same way that building more roads into a city does, all a hub does is increase the potential for collisions.

It is RAW ports that you need, since they decrease the chance of collisions by a power of the number employed.
Two RAW ports decrease the collisions by a power of two over the number of devices.(since you can split the USB tree)

Overall it is very difficult to work out HOW ASICS will impact the USB communication, because so little details have been released.

Consider the Implementation of a SIMPLE buffer scheme for returned nonces.

Take the following.....

Setup one:
Returns EACH nonce when found

Setup Two
Bundles up nonces and returns a batch every second.

consider that we find 5 nonces that are viable,
Setup Two will only negotiate with the USB ONCE every second, therefore the collisions are limited down.

Setup one will attempt to connect & disconnect ATLEAST 5 TIMES with the USB infrastructure, this will seriously impact the distribution of work to other devices, plus it is going to be exponential for each extra device.


Since the Damned ASIC vendors are telling us nothing about how the devices are implemented, we cannot plan ahead or work out anything.

HC

[Unacceptable]

So I'm trying to get my mind around what the best set-up would be for up to 25 ASIC units. Either the BFL SC singles or bASIC.

What about USB bandwith ? Can you use a couple high quality usb hubs or will they have bandwith issues ?

Bandwidth has less to do with it......., since actual bandwidth is quite small, the REAL issue is the protocol.
In another post I'd recommended that the  Chinese ASIC system could potentially scale better, since they have opted to include WIFI/Ethernet.

The problem with USB is that only ONE device can be on the buss at a time AND you have to signal connection & disconnection
Which means as the number of devices grows, so does the buss collisions.
Hubs solve F*** ALL, the same way that building more roads into a city does, all a hub does is increase the potential for collisions.

It is RAW ports that you need, since they decrease the chance of collisions by a power of the number employed.
Two RAW ports decrease the collisions by a power of two over the number of devices.(since you can split the USB tree)

Overall it is very difficult to work out HOW ASICS will impact the USB communication, because so little details have been released.

Consider the Implementation of a SIMPLE buffer scheme for returned nonces.

Take the following.....

Setup one:
Returns EACH nonce when found

Setup Two
Bundles up nonces and returns a batch every second.

consider that we find 5 nonces that are viable,
Setup Two will only negotiate with the USB ONCE every second, therefore the collisions are limited down.

Setup one will attempt to connect & disconnect ATLEAST 5 TIMES with the USB infrastructure, this will seriously impact the distribution of work to other devices, plus it is going to be exponential for each extra device.


Since the Damned ASIC vendors are telling us nothing about how the devices are implemented, we cannot plan ahead or work out anything.

HC

   Very interesting delimma,I hadn't even thought about this being a problem 

I hope its not true,if it is then we're gonna have to find a mobo or PC alternative with as many USB connections as possible.Any ideas,just in case 

Raspberry or such device maybe 

[SAC]

I hope its not true,if it is then we're gonna have to find a mobo or PC alternative with as many USB connections as possible.Any ideas,just in case 

Raspberry or such device maybe 

I'm thinking something like this could be it and as they helpfully point out the front usb can be used internally for an OS drive. Four usb ports on the back, it is not too expensive, 25w max. power my only concern would be it is 32bit only and would that matter for running the mining software.

http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=69271&promoid=1360

[MrTeal]

It should be pretty easy to get enough USB chips to fix scaling issues in any reasonable number. A lot of motherboards have USB3.0 through their chipset in addition to an additional chip like the VIA VL800, as well as a couple USB channels. Toss in a couple $10 PCI or PCIe USB cards and you should be able to run a few hundred thousand dollars worth of mining equipment on a single computer if your really wantedto.

[meowmeowbrowncow]

So I'm trying to get my mind around what the best set-up would be for up to 25 ASIC units. Either the BFL SC singles or bASIC.

What about USB bandwith ? Can you use a couple high quality usb hubs or will they have bandwith issues ?

Bandwidth has less to do with it......., since actual bandwidth is quite small, the REAL issue is the protocol.
In another post I'd recommended that the  Chinese ASIC system could potentially scale better, since they have opted to include WIFI/Ethernet.

The problem with USB is that only ONE device can be on the buss at a time AND you have to signal connection & disconnection
Which means as the number of devices grows, so does the buss collisions.
Hubs solve F*** ALL, the same way that building more roads into a city does, all a hub does is increase the potential for collisions.

It is RAW ports that you need, since they decrease the chance of collisions by a power of the number employed.
Two RAW ports decrease the collisions by a power of two over the number of devices.(since you can split the USB tree)

Overall it is very difficult to work out HOW ASICS will impact the USB communication, because so little details have been released.

Consider the Implementation of a SIMPLE buffer scheme for returned nonces.

Take the following.....

Setup one:
Returns EACH nonce when found

Setup Two
Bundles up nonces and returns a batch every second.

consider that we find 5 nonces that are viable,
Setup Two will only negotiate with the USB ONCE every second, therefore the collisions are limited down.

Setup one will attempt to connect & disconnect ATLEAST 5 TIMES with the USB infrastructure, this will seriously impact the distribution of work to other devices, plus it is going to be exponential for each extra device.


Since the Damned ASIC vendors are telling us nothing about how the devices are implemented, we cannot plan ahead or work out anything.

HC

Agreed.

The USB root port PCI-E cards are a little pricey.  Might be worth it.

[ninjaboon]

So I'm trying to get my mind around what the best set-up would be for up to 25 ASIC units. Either the BFL SC singles or bASIC.

What about USB bandwith ? Can you use a couple high quality usb hubs or will they have bandwith issues ?

Bandwidth has less to do with it......., since actual bandwidth is quite small, the REAL issue is the protocol.
In another post I'd recommended that the  Chinese ASIC system could potentially scale better, since they have opted to include WIFI/Ethernet.

So only Avalon units have WIFI/Ethernet ? and BFL + bASICs have USB ports ?
I should have checked this out before I got a 8 port switch the other day.
Now I need to buy 1 or 2 powered USB hubs.

[jjshabadoo]

What about the usb ports which attach to the rear slots and plug directly into the motherboard ?

I have msi gd70's from my gpu set-ups and have attached three of the usb add-ins directly to the motherboard which gives me 12 extra ports.

Does that solve the collisions ?

[Unacceptable]

So I'm trying to get my mind around what the best set-up would be for up to 25 ASIC units. Either the BFL SC singles or bASIC.

What about USB bandwith ? Can you use a couple high quality usb hubs or will they have bandwith issues ?

Bandwidth has less to do with it......., since actual bandwidth is quite small, the REAL issue is the protocol.
In another post I'd recommended that the  Chinese ASIC system could potentially scale better, since they have opted to include WIFI/Ethernet.

So only Avalon units have WIFI/Ethernet ? and BFL + bASICs have USB ports ?
I should have checked this out before I got a 8 port switch the other day.
Now I need to buy 1 or 2 powered USB hubs.

You'll only need powered hubs if your running Jallies,the rest should be ok with non-powered hubs..........maybe 

[PuertoLibre]

http://www.onestopsystems.com/direct_attached_products.php

Maybe with some PCIe USB cards?

[firefop]

So I'm trying to get my mind around what the best set-up would be for up to 25 ASIC units. Either the BFL SC singles or bASIC.

What about USB bandwith ? Can you use a couple high quality usb hubs or will they have bandwith issues ?

Bandwidth has less to do with it......., since actual bandwidth is quite small, the REAL issue is the protocol.
In another post I'd recommended that the  Chinese ASIC system could potentially scale better, since they have opted to include WIFI/Ethernet.

The problem with USB is that only ONE device can be on the buss at a time AND you have to signal connection & disconnection
Which means as the number of devices grows, so does the buss collisions.
Hubs solve F*** ALL, the same way that building more roads into a city does, all a hub does is increase the potential for collisions.

It is RAW ports that you need, since they decrease the chance of collisions by a power of the number employed.
Two RAW ports decrease the collisions by a power of two over the number of devices.(since you can split the USB tree)

Overall it is very difficult to work out HOW ASICS will impact the USB communication, because so little details have been released.

Consider the Implementation of a SIMPLE buffer scheme for returned nonces.

Take the following.....

Setup one:
Returns EACH nonce when found

Setup Two
Bundles up nonces and returns a batch every second.

consider that we find 5 nonces that are viable,
Setup Two will only negotiate with the USB ONCE every second, therefore the collisions are limited down.

Setup one will attempt to connect & disconnect ATLEAST 5 TIMES with the USB infrastructure, this will seriously impact the distribution of work to other devices, plus it is going to be exponential for each extra device.


Since the Damned ASIC vendors are telling us nothing about how the devices are implemented, we cannot plan ahead or work out anything.

HC

Your idea about how USB works is factually incorrect. Start reading about the technology on wiki which correctly states:

The host controller directs traffic flow to devices, so no USB device can transfer any data on the bus without an explicit request from the host controller. In USB 2.0, the host controller polls the bus for traffic, usually in a round-robin fashion. The throughput of each USB port is determined by the slower speed of either the USB port or the USB device connected to the port.

In case you need a translation. The speed of the chain/hub determines how quickly each attached device is polled for transfering data. This operation in double digit milliseconds (around 12 iirc) in most cases, but there do exist some that poll speed is in the single digit. This is for usb 2.0. Furthermore, the signaling method for USB 3.0, while still host-directed, is now asynchronous instead of polling. and drops that access time to each device by a factor of 10.

So no, there's no "attempt to connect and disconnect ATLEAST 5 TIMES" it is in effect a flag that's set on the device (closing the ground line???) that indicates it has data to transfer. Polling would be a query from the usbcontroller to the device asking if it's got data... When that happens and the device has data to send... it transmits.

Also, this is why it's called Universal Serial Bus it's using the same methods that a data bus on any circuit board uses but to communicate with external devices (and logically instead of physically).

[hardcore-fs]

So I'm trying to get my mind around what the best set-up would be for up to 25 ASIC units. Either the BFL SC singles or bASIC.

What about USB bandwith ? Can you use a couple high quality usb hubs or will they have bandwith issues ?

Bandwidth has less to do with it......., since actual bandwidth is quite small, the REAL issue is the protocol.
In another post I'd recommended that the  Chinese ASIC system could potentially scale better, since they have opted to include WIFI/Ethernet.

So only Avalon units have WIFI/Ethernet ? and BFL + bASICs have USB ports ?
I should have checked this out before I got a 8 port switch the other day.
Now I need to buy 1 or 2 powered USB hubs.

Yep.... Maybe bit more research..........
However ....... There  may be a solution to scalability, but it would depend on the  other manufacturers having TWO USB ports and some *specially written firmware, possibly it would work with ONE USB port, but again it would need  Custom firmware, and a modified mining client.

HC.

[hardcore-fs]

What about the usb ports which attach to the rear slots and plug directly into the motherboard ?

I have msi gd70's from my gpu set-ups and have attached three of the usb add-ins directly to the motherboard which gives me 12 extra ports.

Does that solve the collisions ?

It would depend HOW they are routed... some of these multi-port setups are cons........
Basically the motherboard supplier has ONE hard USB port, which they route to an internal USB HUB CHIP!!!!!!, so you are f***d before you start, they do it because the hub chips have abuse protection built in, so on repairs, they replace one shitty hub chip, instead of a more expensive Port chip.

Other manufacturers or SOC chips have 4 HARD USB connections WITHOUT a hub, so if the software is written properly you have the bandwidth of 4 USB ports+ DMA
You have to pull some data-sheets.
Even with these new PCIe cards, you have to ensure they are raw ports and not some shitty USB hub implementation with  a bit of PCIe 'magic' shoved on the outside.
 (it all comes back to WHY should I pay $10,000 for an intel server when an ASUS motherboard costs $40)

[meowmeowbrowncow]

Re:  USB hubs vs root ports


Typically a vendor will identify a multi port USB PCI-E card as "full bandwidth" to indicate that each port is a root port and not hubbed.

I have seen very few "full bandwidth" cards.  Most are hubbed.

By looking at the PCB it's usually easy to spot the hubbed cards.  They have a single set of 2 large IC's.

[Unacceptable]

Re:  USB hubs vs root ports


Typically a vendor will identify a multi port USB PCI-E card as "full bandwidth" to indicate that each port is a root port and not hubbed.

I have seen very few "full bandwidth" cards.  Most are hubbed.

By looking at the PCB it's usually easy to spot the hubbed cards.  They have a single set of 2 large IC's.

Any links to show what your talking about 

I looked some up,but had no idea what I was looking for....Thanks!!!! 

[hardcore-fs]

So I'm trying to get my mind around what the best set-up would be for up to 25 ASIC units. Either the BFL SC singles or bASIC.

What about USB bandwith ? Can you use a couple high quality usb hubs or will they have bandwith issues ?

Bandwidth has less to do with it......., since actual bandwidth is quite small, the REAL issue is the protocol.
In another post I'd recommended that the  Chinese ASIC system could potentially scale better, since they have opted to include WIFI/Ethernet.

The problem with USB is that only ONE device can be on the buss at a time AND you have to signal connection & disconnection
Which means as the number of devices grows, so does the buss collisions.
Hubs solve F*** ALL, the same way that building more roads into a city does, all a hub does is increase the potential for collisions.

It is RAW ports that you need, since they decrease the chance of collisions by a power of the number employed.
Two RAW ports decrease the collisions by a power of two over the number of devices.(since you can split the USB tree)

Overall it is very difficult to work out HOW ASICS will impact the USB communication, because so little details have been released.

Consider the Implementation of a SIMPLE buffer scheme for returned nonces.

Take the following.....

Setup one:
Returns EACH nonce when found

Setup Two
Bundles up nonces and returns a batch every second.

consider that we find 5 nonces that are viable,
Setup Two will only negotiate with the USB ONCE every second, therefore the collisions are limited down.

Setup one will attempt to connect & disconnect ATLEAST 5 TIMES with the USB infrastructure, this will seriously impact the distribution of work to other devices, plus it is going to be exponential for each extra device.


Since the Damned ASIC vendors are telling us nothing about how the devices are implemented, we cannot plan ahead or work out anything.

HC

Your idea about how USB works is factually incorrect. Start reading about the technology on wiki which correctly states:

The host controller directs traffic flow to devices, so no USB device can transfer any data on the bus without an explicit request from the host controller. In USB 2.0, the host controller polls the bus for traffic, usually in a round-robin fashion. The throughput of each USB port is determined by the slower speed of either the USB port or the USB device connected to the port.

In case you need a translation. The speed of the chain/hub determines how quickly each attached device is polled for transfering data. This operation in double digit milliseconds (around 12 iirc) in most cases, but there do exist some that poll speed is in the single digit. This is for usb 2.0. Furthermore, the signaling method for USB 3.0, while still host-directed, is now asynchronous instead of polling. and drops that access time to each device by a factor of 10.

So no, there's no "attempt to connect and disconnect ATLEAST 5 TIMES" it is in effect a flag that's set on the device (closing the ground line???) that indicates it has data to transfer. Polling would be a query from the usbcontroller to the device asking if it's got data... When that happens and the device has data to send... it transmits.

Also, this is why it's called Universal Serial Bus it's using the same methods that a data bus on any circuit board uses but to communicate with external devices (and logically instead of physically).

Actually it is NOT factually incorrect... perhaps  a little unclear in the wording. (The 5 times WAS AN EXAMPLE OF FINDING 5 nonces, and collisions perhaps would have been better to describe as  "work waiting to be serviced" would have been better),
Sometimes I forget that not everyones first language is English, I apologize for my mistake.

I.E
poll slavex...... I have a nonce for you......transfer.. Disconnect... poll next device....... nothing.. back to salve x... I have a nonce for you....

A better solution would be.......

poll slavex...... I have a X nonces for you transfer..disconnect poll next device....... nothing... back to slave x


As I stated at the start... we do not know about HOW they have implemented the USB system.

Even if you took the trouble to do a very basic search of Wikipidia (god help us....) and from your text I see that you have indeed just copied and pasted from Wikipedia without correctly Citing.

if you read down a bit you would see:
"On-The-Go Supplement 1.3: Released in December 2006.
USB On-The-Go makes it possible for two USB devices to communicate with each other without requiring a separate USB host. In practice, one of the USB devices acts as a host for the other device."

So it would be possible with such a setup to have a "chain" of devices (two ports) where each device was BOTH a host and a slave, ideally two.

As regards you description of USB and how it relates to how "its based on ANY databus"

"it's using the same methods that a data bus on any circuit board uses but to communicate with external devices (and logically instead of physically "

Sorry Wikipedia <FAIL>........
Some external devices CAN POLL, and so do most INTERNAL devices (its called interrupts) and in this case the "signaling" is EXTERNAL to the databus using separate control wires (parallel printers are another example, but RS232 can be either)

 USB CANNOT do this, because as you stated yourself copied and pasted from wikipidia... it is MASTER/SALVE and has to be " polled in round robin"

Whilst we are on the subject of reading up.......

Jan, Axelson (2005) USB Complete Third Edition. http://picvietnam.com/download/Tutorial/USB_Complete_3rdEdition.pdf

It's a bit out of date... but it will get you up to speed on the subject, look at section 2 and 3.

Look USB is a complex subject, not just the protocol, but how simple design decisions in the controlling software can have a MAJOR impact on the protocol.

HC

[meowmeowbrowncow]

^^^^ Re:  Long, informative USB stuff


Ok, now I get it.  Rather than the issues of collisions found in hubbed CSMA like Ethernet USB is multiplexed with the host controller as master.


I was worried that USB introduced collisions in the formal sense.  That would definitely be a problem for non buffered nonces every 70ms.


Ok, I can relax now


edit:  I believe FTDI usb/serial chips have advanced driver settings to control payload buffering in the chip.

[P_Shep]

Gaah!

I've been looking for a nice low power simple and cheap nettop type PC to run my FPGAs and ASICs (if/when they arrive), but they all seem to be 19v supply. Which is terribly inconvenient when I have my nice efficient ATX PSU sitting right there delivering a juicy 12v.
The only 12v ones are over-priced (imo) and not well spec'ed compared to the 19v ones available.

Guess I'll have to use the power brick

[crazyates]

Gaah!

I've been looking for a nice low power simple and cheap nettop type PC to run my FPGAs and ASICs (if/when they arrive), but they all seem to be 19v supply. Which is terribly inconvenient when I have my nice efficient ATX PSU sitting right there delivering a juicy 12v.
The only 12v ones are over-priced (imo) and not well spec'ed compared to the 19v ones available.

Guess I'll have to use the power brick

What ever happened to your e3000? I thought you were using that to mine?

[P_Shep]

What ever happened to your e3000? I thought you were using that to mine?

I'm not entirely convinced it'll be fast enough for ASICs, maybe it would be... either way, I updated the firmware and put the wrong one on and bricked it :/
Tried the serial recovery... not working either.

[crazyates]

What ever happened to your e3000? I thought you were using that to mine?

I'm not entirely convinced it'll be fast enough for ASICs, maybe it would be... either way, I updated the firmware and put the wrong one on and bricked it :/
Tried the serial recovery... not working either.

Ouch! Sorry to hear that, as your thread was my inspiration!

[P_Shep]

What ever happened to your e3000? I thought you were using that to mine?

I'm not entirely convinced it'll be fast enough for ASICs, maybe it would be... either way, I updated the firmware and put the wrong one on and bricked it :/
Tried the serial recovery... not working either.

Ouch! Sorry to hear that, as your thread was my inspiration!

Nice! That's certainly a lot more powerful then the router, at least 2x the CPU speed 8x the memory (though that's not so important). It would probably handle a few asics OK.

I wanted something a bit more powerful, I'll have 240GH/s when the asics arrive, also want to run a full bitcoin node, and probably use it as a media / backup server since it'll always be on.

[crazyates]

What ever happened to your e3000? I thought you were using that to mine?

I'm not entirely convinced it'll be fast enough for ASICs, maybe it would be... either way, I updated the firmware and put the wrong one on and bricked it :/
Tried the serial recovery... not working either.

Ouch! Sorry to hear that, as your thread was my inspiration!

Nice! That's certainly a lot more powerful then the router, at least 2x the CPU speed 8x the memory (though that's not so important). It would probably handle a few asics OK.

I wanted something a bit more powerful, I'll have 240GH/s when the asics arrive, also want to run a full bitcoin node, and probably use it as a media / backup server since it'll always be on.

Ya that's what I'm hoping. I got just over 200GH/s myself, but I don't plan on doing anything besides running CGMiner, so it should be adequate. I'm concerned about running it over wifi, but I can always pick up a usb->ethernet adapter as a backup, run 8 ASICs instead of 9, and still have the whole setup for under $75.

[P_Shep]

I see there's a new version (III) with a dual 1.6GHz Arm Processor, that might be enough...

[crazyates]

I see there's a new version (III) with a dual 1.6GHz Arm Processor, that might be enough...

I looked into that, and realized there are still a few problems. The MK802, MK802+, and MK802 II all used the same chipset, the Allwinner A10. This has been out for a while, so there is plenty of Linux support for these devices. The MK802 III, MK808, and UG802 switched to a dual core chipset, the RK3066. There are early, alpha builds of Ubuntu available, but with complicated installation procedures and many known issues (such as not being able to use the internal wifi). Because of this, I choose the older, but better supported devices.

[P_Shep]

Got one of these off fleebay for $125:

http://www.zotacusa.com/zbox-ad04.html

Should do the job

[Unacceptable]

Got one of these off fleebay for $125:

http://www.zotacusa.com/zbox-ad04.html

Should do the job

Can it run win7 or XP  

It has ATI6320 onboard video,should play minecraft pretty well,right  

Got some customers looking to get something for thier kids to play that game  

Edit: Yeppers,Win7 needs to be installed from a USB stick.Found the info here in the feedback.........I LOVE NEWEGG  

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856173035

Some folks are talking about an overheat issue,hmmm 

[P_Shep]

Can it run win7 or XP  

It has ATI6320 onboard video,should play minecraft pretty well,right  

Got some customers looking to get something for thier kids to play that game  

Edit: Yeppers,Win7 needs to be installed from a USB stick.Found the info here in the feedback.........I LOVE NEWEGG  

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856173035

Some folks are talking about an overheat issue,hmmm 

If you try and mine on it, it probably will overheat!

Some say it's cool, some say it over heats. I suspect the over-heaters are pushing the little thing beyond what it's designed to do.

[Unacceptable]

Can it run win7 or XP  

It has ATI6320 onboard video,should play minecraft pretty well,right  

Got some customers looking to get something for thier kids to play that game  

Edit: Yeppers,Win7 needs to be installed from a USB stick.Found the info here in the feedback.........I LOVE NEWEGG  

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856173035

Some folks are talking about an overheat issue,hmmm 

If you try and mine on it, it probably will overheat!

Some say it's cool, some say it over heats. I suspect the over-heaters are pushing the little thing beyond what it's designed to do.

   Definitly not for mining  But for minecraft or websurfing it should be what my customers are looking for.Just a little concerned about that possible heat issue