So you think you're going to start a Bitcoin business, right?

[bitzox]

Man...just spent like 30 minutes at work reading all and there are some GEMS in this thread. Its like a BTC soap opra!

But anyway...I really think OP makes some valid points, as a lot of people mention the hostile tone of op's posts might make this untenable to some users but to that I say fuck them. If you don't want op's help or don't like his language...then stop reading. He's not forcing you to read his posts or agree with what he says.

The whole debate about WOT(irrespective of sooo many peoples inability to simply Google "WOT Bitcoin") is interesting. My 2 satoshi's on the issue seems to be that it is really useful for doing large scale transactions (ie the type that any successful business would inevitably find itself needing to make). Weather a successful business that is "involved" in BTC (a term I am using to avoid the discrepancy between a bit coin business and a business that uses bit coin) is on WOT is irrelevant. At some point a representative of that business will need to be on WOT and given the long term process of getting verified and gaining trust it makes sense to get on it early. Also given how simple it is to sign up...why wouldn't you? its not like it costs anything.

I'm going to ignore the whole MPEx debate. I'd guess I know as much about valuation as anyone on here, regardless of my lack of BTC knowledge and I can tell all of you that it is much more complicated than anything that has been or will be discussed on this forum. The models used to value the simplest of businesses are beyond the understanding of most people without an MBA or a BA in Finance and several years of experience. Profit and revenue, while parts of a valuation, do not constitute a valuation. Nor does market cap, if market cap worked their would be a great deal of the financial services industry out of business.

Finally this

when mainstream talent hits bitcoins, your cabal will be as significant as a pinky finger.

I love and appreciate all the things that everyone who has been involved in BTC longer than I have done for this community and economy. Without them we would not be where we are today and BTC would have floundered in obscurity. But the fact of the matter is when GS, MS, and JPM decide that BTC is the place to be they will blow most if not all of the current operators out of the water. Not because they are better, but because they have the resources and talent to throw hundreds of millions of dollars and tens of thousands of man hours at the same problems we are dealing with now. The purse scale of what they will do will dwarf anything we have going. They lost fiat several times the size of the entire BTC economy multiple times over the last decade and shrugged it off like it was no thing.  For those that find this situation unlikely see this article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/31/bitcoin-venture-capital_n_3368035.html

and this is just the beginning, these are the small fish in the world finance pond. Wait till Blackstone, TPG, or Carlye decides this is interesting. Once the big guns come out I think WOT will become irrelevant pretty quickly. Not that I'm hoping or advancing this occurrence at all, just what I think will happen given what I have seen working in the industry.

let the hating continue!

edit: words n stuff

[Rassah]

But the fact of the matter is when GS, MS, and JPM decide that BTC is the place to be they will blow most if not all of the current operators out of the water. Not because they are better, but because they have the resources and talent to throw hundreds of millions of dollars and tens of thousands of man hours at the same problems we are dealing with now.

Kinda like Kodak, a well established company with millions of dollars and tons of resources did to Nikon? Or Nokia did to HTC? Or Western Union did to Bell Labs? Or... Yeah, you know where I'm going with this 

[EndTheFed321]

thanks MPOE-PR for your fucking post! It`s like someone droped a 100 BTC bag on my head 

[bitzox]

Kinda like Kodak, a well established company with millions of dollars and tons of resources did to Nikon? Or Nokia did to HTC? Or Western Union did to Bell Labs? Or... Yeah, you know where I'm going with this 

I would say that that is apples and oranges. In those examples you're talking about a dominant company that was usurped by a smaller one with a disruptive technology or process. While I agree that BTC is disruptive the technology that underlies it isn't that revolutionary. And the banks/hedge funds don't want to overtake BTC they want to overtake the exchanges, escrow services, and payment mechanisms. In all of those areas I think that they have vastly superior resources to what the bitcoin community is able to muster.

It all really depends on how fast they react. If any of those services can reach the tipping point where bitcoin adoption is wide spread enough and they are enough of a household name, then the big banks will face a seriously uphill battle. I hope that is the case honestly, I'm no fan of these institutions, but given the interest by smaller PE firms and groups of angel investors I'd say interest from the big guys has already started, I wouldn't be surprised if we see a major player enter the market, probably thought an LBO or, given the current market value of most btc companies, an outright buyout in the next 12-18 months. They could by MPEx for 3.2 million? 32 million? either way that's like 3 seconds of revenue to them.

[Rassah]

It all really depends on how fast they react...

That's kinda the point. Kodak still sells digital cameras, but they got into it too late. There are tons of examples of big, lumbering companies ignoring or laughing off new technologies until it's too late, and then playing catch-up for ever.

[bitzox]

That's kinda the point. Kodak still sells digital cameras, but they got into it too late. There are tons of examples of big, lumbering companies ignoring or laughing off new technologies until it's too late, and then playing catch-up for ever.

Kodak actually recently sold off most of their traditional film business and now only does specialty film, what a transition. Anyway, I digress...I totally agree with you, I just know its a lot harder to be disruptive in the financial world because its really easy for those companies to copy one another. Their really isn't a technology for you to patent/corner the market on. Its more about relationships, branding, and $$. To correct my statement from earlier I don't think the big banks will be in bitcoin too too soon, baring a much more widespread adoption by the general public or some central bank deciding bit coin is a worthwhile investment, the market just isnt big enough to justify them entering.

Hedge funds and PE firms are a different story though, and their involvement might actually be beneficial.  If Blackstone rolls up and offers one of the existing companies $10 million I have a feeling these sites will start to look much more professional, hire top notch legal consul to make sure they are in compliance etc.

My biggest fears is that one of the large-well-connected banks will simply use their influence to place regulatory pressure on existing bitcoin business and get them all shut down. Then step in and take their place. That could happen 3 years down the line just as easily as tomorrow. I'm not sure what the statute of limitations on breaking securities law(s) are but I'm sure most every bitcoin site is in violation of some SEC regulation or other. Shit I know for a fact most big banks are in violation consistently, they just pay off their lobbyists or a take a slap on the wrist (read $100 million dollar) fine.

[raoulbtc]

Some of what you've written is definitely true, but you have a very tenuous grasp on the fundamental interaction between Bitcoin and the general population unfortunately, so most of your message will be discarded.  

That's okay: as far as the economy goes (be it Bitcoin or fiat) most of the general population is discarded.

Note that this is not about "how should Joe Sixpack go about buying a sixpack". This is about how to start a beer factory.

WOT and MPOE miss the mark on general populace usability, and no amount of "no really, it's not that hard" is going to change that fact.

Why do you think this "general populace" is ready to start a business or should be starting a business?

If you happen to live in the US, the tax code can also be generally said to be outside of the grasp, not only of the general public, but of absolutely each and every last one expert in the field. So? It's still the tax code, and guess what? If you break it you go to jail.

and do you think that "going to jail" automatically means you broke some code, or law?
your mind operates with backwards logic that makes absolutely no sense what so ever
you have no firm grasp on reality and all of what you say is telling of your desire to be ruled over

[bitzox]

and do you think that "going to jail" automatically means you broke some code, or law?
your mind operates with backwards logic that makes absolutely no sense what so ever
you have no firm grasp on reality and all of what you say is telling of your desire to be ruled over

usually going to jail means you broke a law, granted some innocent people go to jail that still doesn't change the fact that your statement about his tenancy not to make sense...doesn't make any sense.

[madmadmax]

1. Identify yourself to the community. This means, at the very least, creating a WOT account. If you do not have a WOT account you are not part of Bitcoin business. This is the criteria, no matter what you might think. That's where everyone looks, no matter what social media might be telling you. If you aren't in the WOT you aren't in Bitcoin.

I keep opening World of Tanks accounts but nothing happens!

[some1]

thank you MPOE-PR!

nice read

[leek_rs]

Compare the case of A, who aspires to become an Opera singer, and B, who aspires to become a rap singer. A spends five hours a day practicing, doing boring stuff such as vocalize, paying canto professors and in general going to a lot of trouble. B spends his time posting on BlackPantherForum.gov

Five years later, A is singing her first paid engagement (not quite an established Opera house, but certainly a start) and B is a juvenile delinquent. As far as A is concerned, obviously B never had a shot to begin with: didn't work his voice, didn't practice, didn't X Y Z. As far as B is concerned however, A just got a lucky break, possibly cause she's white. Or a girl. Or whatever else. B doesn't even know about the X Y Z.

While I agree with the most of your points. The motivations of your characters in the above quote is interesting. You assume that the aspiring white (your words) opera singer is hardworking and the aspiring black rapper is lazy are universal archetypes. As though these stereotypes were so obvious to your audience they could be given off hand as though you were relating to us some Aesop's fable.

And your cursory "I'm not racist" PS fails to mitigate your base assumptions. You counter that Opera is superior to rap. But that wasn't the misinterpretation you should be trying to prevent. It was the fact that you assumed that your characters skin color and musical preference (which was also stereotypical) should make it obvious who was hard working and successful and who was lazy, jealous and resentful.

PS. We don't for a moment even contemplate the notion that people's skin tone has any impact on their general ability or odds to succeed in whatever they may endeavor. We do however believe even mediocre Opera is far superior to any rap music ever created.

[leek_rs]

MPOE-PR, I always enjoyed reading your posts even when I was just a lurker. But this one really left a bad taste in my mouth.

But why did you feel that the skin color of the characters was relevant to the story?

Imagine I catch my son stealing cookies from his sister. So to teach him about stealing and honesty I tell him a story about the Gentile boy who plays fair and never lies and the Jewish boy who is always trying to trick and steal from his friends and he winds up with everyone hating him. Why not just tell my son about a bad boy and a good boy?

What does their ethnicities/religion have to do with the story? What does that say about me? And what does it do to the minds of impressionable people that hear that story from me?

[MPOE-PR]

MPOE-PR, I always enjoyed reading your posts even when I was just a lurker. But this one really left a bad taste in my mouth.

But why did you feel that the skin color of the characters was relevant to the story?

Imagine I catch my son stealing cookies from his sister. So to teach him about stealing and honesty I tell him a story about the Gentile boy who plays fair and never lies and the Jewish boy who is always trying to trick and steal from his friends and he winds up with everyone hating him. Why not just tell my son about a bad boy and a good boy?

What does their ethnicities/religion have to do with the story? What does that say about me? And what does it do to the minds of impressionable people that hear that story from me?

You are confusing things there. The skin color of the participants is not part of the story, neither A nor B are either white or black as the actual story unfolds.

The skin color is only mentioned afterwards, when we get to the nonsensical "explanations" people come up with for plain reality. That's when it's born, after the fact, as a function of particular antisocial propaganda. Color doesn't exist when people do things, color appears when losers that don't want to work wish nevertheless to come up with a reason as to why they failed, preferably one that doesn't boil down to "because I deliberately suck". Something that can't be easily changed is ideal for their purpose.

[cornish_will]

hi all just thought i put my pennies worth in here

i read the most by MPOE-PR and most of it is understandable and straight forward  and i agree with it (a few im not sure about but that just me)

but the post by bitzok i disagree on hostility is not needed for in any post

if i posted a business idea i would always be grateful for feedback good or bad so i could tweak my business idea/website by the feedback i get but hostile posts are unnecessary you can give help and advice without it

thats just my opinion but i still think MPOE-PR's advice is overall good 

[Lohoris]

When S.DICE was announced, a bunch of forum muppets rambled on about how it's not worth its valuation because "everyone could do it". And I laughed at them then and so to prove my point that they're laughable idiots they declared that they shall do it! It's been months, who has managed to steal the business?

Just-Dice rightly demolished S.DICE.
"Doing it right" won this time.

(of course since it's not listed on mpex you'll come here crying that they are incompetent and stuff)

[just_me]

I wonder why people who think that being anonymous is so important, then why do they expect other people to become
non-anonymous.

Isn't this a double-standard, or hypocricies.

Hey, if you want to remain anonymous, then respect other people who want to remain anonymous too.

But if you want to be naked on the internet, then don't expect anonymous people to follow after you of their own will.

[maurya78]

Very useful, not sure I agree 100% but I respect the passion and the perspective

Thanks

[cdtc]

These are some very good tips.

[MPOE-PR]

@Maurya78, cdtc: My pleasure.

Just-Dice rightly demolished S.DICE.
"Doing it right" won this time.

(of course since it's not listed on mpex you'll come here crying that they are incompetent and stuff)

Who demolished what now? Listen, imagining that things work the way you'd want them to rather than as they do is a fine way to ensure you're never challenged by anything, never have to learn, and never do anything useful. It's a bit ridiculous to insist on it around people actually involved in finance, however. Just hang out on your couch, nobody cares.

As for your delusional expectations, MP openly played at and praised Just-Dice since the beginning. What now? How much lead dropped on your skull does it take for you to get that you're not only wrong, but wildly out of line, and that the very emotionally-driven nonsense you accuse me of practicing is in fact your own MO?

Snap out of it, otherwise back to the couch.

[coreli]

This thread could also be correctly titled; So you think you're going to start a business 

Good advice & an interesting read, thank you MPOE-PR.