So you think you're going to start a Bitcoin business, right?

[MPOE-PR]

that argument is faulty.
a 4 room plan leaves no room for expansion.

only to stay within the general picture, i would compare the approach as outlined by me to acquiring some real estate with the option of building a home, a brewery or beer factory, according to business development.

Ok, something more like that, yeah.

[Korbman]

I agree with the majority of the statements laid out here, though I do have just a bit to add.

To me, the most meaningful aspect in a business venture is transparency. Having a WOT account doesn't cut it. If you want me to invest in you, I want to know every detail about yourself and your business. In WOT, JohnDoe99 could have a 500+ rating from all his micro-transactions and other trades...but he may really suck at running a business. If that happens and his business goes sour, I want to know who I invested in to get my money back (if possible).

I understand the whole "anonymity" aspect with Bitcoin, and I don't have a problem with it when it comes to the general public. But if you're looking to raise money for a business or other project, I want to know who you are. To me, resistance in this area means you've got something to hide. It doesn't matter if I'm looking to invest 1 BTC or 500 BTCs... just as I am in real life, I don't invest in something I don't know. Anyone who has read through my Fund info knows I'm all about detail.

That said, I generally still agree with everything else noted in the intro. Get to the know the community...make meaningful posts...show people you're not some dumbass troll. If you make valid, well thought-out, arguments, meaningful posts, and you post elsewhere on the forums besides the 'Securities' section, then that indicates to me that you're invested and interested in this community.

[MPOE-PR]

Well, the anonymity side has been intentionally left blank. I can say for sure you're not the only one holding that position however.

[Inaba]

If they don't use the WOT they don't have a BTC business. Simple as pie. Are there people who will foolishly charge forward on the mistaken assumption that they have a BTC business when they do not? Certainly. Will it come to anything? Certainly not. Will these people make a difference? Nope. That's pretty much the whole story.

Huh?  Really?  Can you point me to one serious major Bitcoin business that utilizes WOT?  BFL, arguably the largest Bitcoin business in existence, does not use WOT.  I don't use WOT in my business ventures.  Bitpay, as far as I know, does not use WOT.   The list goes on. Name a major business that uses WOT.

Sorry, but WOT is for hardcore geeks and is functionally meaningless to the larger Bitcoin world.  Whether that's because people just don't care or it's impossibly hard to use I'll leave that up to you to decide, but the fact is, WOT is a niche that a tiny, tiny fraction of the Bitcoin-o-sphere uses at all and an even smaller fraction that uses it regularly. 

[MPOE-PR]

If they don't use the WOT they don't have a BTC business. Simple as pie. Are there people who will foolishly charge forward on the mistaken assumption that they have a BTC business when they do not? Certainly. Will it come to anything? Certainly not. Will these people make a difference? Nope. That's pretty much the whole story.

Huh?  Really?  Can you point me to one serious major Bitcoin business that utilizes WOT?  BFL, arguably the largest Bitcoin business in existence, does not use WOT.  I don't use WOT in my business ventures.  Bitpay, as far as I know, does not use WOT.   The list goes on. Name a major business that uses WOT.

Sorry, but WOT is for hardcore geeks and is functionally meaningless to the larger Bitcoin world.  Whether that's because people just don't care or it's impossibly hard to use I'll leave that up to you to decide, but the fact is, WOT is a niche that a tiny, tiny fraction of the Bitcoin-o-sphere uses at all and an even smaller fraction that uses it regularly.  

Well, your numbers are a little off.

The largest Bitcoin business in existence (not arguably, but provedly) is MPOE/MPEx, currently market-valued at a little under half a million bitcoins (or a little over, I forget).

The second largest Bitcoin business in existence (idem) is currently SatoshiDice, currently valued in the hundreds of k's range.

Other large Bitcoin businesses would probably be MtGox and (if indeed it exists, and indeed it makes money) that shadow marketplace whatever it's called.

It's great that you think the company you represent is large, it's fine that you want to argue the point, but you will need something a little more solid than just that passion. Trying to evaluate the claim, I know your competitor that used to go under ASICMINER before GLBSE imploded was worth in their estimation something like 200k x 0.1 = 20,000 Bitcoin. I presume you think yourself larger than them, how much larger? 10x? That'll put you (arguably) in third position.

Moving on: you're free to use or not use whatever you want. What bearing does that have on anything? You're not about to tell me now that you're also (arguably) the greatest Bitcoin businessman in existence or something?

At some points you'll have to revisit the simple concept that declaratory statements do not change the cold hard reality of the outside world, or else I'ma start calling you Rakim. Seriously, re-read this post. You'd have to be particularly boneheaded to not realize that the exact arguments you imagine you're bringing against the WOT are the "arguments" people bring against Bitcoin. Ignorant, useless people, that is.

The cheaper alternative would be for you to learn how to use the WOT, rather than trying vainly to prove how the superior solution isn't really superior because "we the people".

[Inaba]

My numbers are off?  Really?  It's funny you think MPOE is a large business... can you show me any sort of proof that the "money" that MPOE "has" is actual asset and not funds transacted?  I doubt it.  In fact, it's laughable that you say MPOE is valued at 500k Bitcoins... who's doing this valuation?  Who would pay even 10% of that for MPOE?  You say it is not arguably, but provably... please provide proof to your claims.  MPEx is not a serious bitcoin business... take a look at the FAQ page, it's an idealistic, angry adolescent rant.  The user interface is unusable.  Everything about it indicates it's a hobby site run by a really good tech geek or geeks.

SatoshiDice, again... whee!  You can show a company that transacts a lot of Bitcoins, but last I heard, it was barely breaking even as far as profit goes.  It's completely irrelevant how many bitcoins you pass through your system... I can pass fifty million bitcoins a day through my accounts, that's trivial... it doesn't mean I own the value 50 million bitcoins would provide, now does it?  Of course not.  The actual value of SatoshiDice and MPEx is, and this is just an educated guess, somewhere around $10,000 USD combined.  Neither of those ventures has any sort of actual monetary value, beyond the fact that they transact a large number of bitcoins through their system.  MPEx will never take off due to the user interface.  GLBSE did not gain any ground until they changed their interface from the completely incomprehensible mess they had on v1.  There's a reason for that.

Of course I am not going to speak about the financials of BFL, but anyone with even a modicum of common sense would understand that 20k Bitcoins while not quite a trivial amount, is a tiny fraction.  As you said, it's provable, so please provide any sort of proof you are able to muster that MPEx and/or Satoshidice have any sort of assets beyond a bit of marketshare and a trickle of income.  If that were the case, you would be a multimillionaire and I am pretty sure you aren't that.

But I digress, you've provided nothing to convince me (or anyone else) that WOT is anything but a niche hardcore Geek tool.  No large business use it (Sorry, but MPEx and SatoshiDice are not large businesses, but I'll be happy if you prove me wrong) - and the large businesses that I've mentioned, which are provably large, have zero interest in WOT... in fact, one you mentioned, MTGox, does not use it either... that kind of shoots your theory to hell right there.

As for me being the greatest bitcoin businessman in existence, hardly.  My point was that I have run and continue to run successful business(s) on the Bitcoin platform and yet somehow I've managed to do this without WOT... again shooting your theory to hell and gone.  Bottom line: No large bitcoin businesses use WOT.  There are successful businesses running now that do not use WOT.  Ergo, WOT is not required to run a successful business.

[MPOE-PR]

Seriously, this arguing from ignorance again...

Nov 16 21:57:00 <Diablo-D3>   what is the implied valuation?
Nov 16 21:58:05 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16121 @ 0.00049713 = 8.0142 BTC

Nov 16 21:58:06 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7779 @ 0.00049717 = 3.8675 BTC

Nov 16 21:58:27 <smickles>   ;;calc 1000000000 * .00049717
Nov 16 21:58:27 <gribble>   497170
Nov 16 21:58:33 <smickles>   Diablo-D3: ^ in btc
Nov 16 21:58:58 <Diablo-D3>   jesus what

Compare that to

Of course I am not going to speak about the financials of BFL, but anyone with even a modicum of common sense would understand that 20k Bitcoins while not quite a trivial amount, is a tiny fraction.  

Whopdee for you. Anyone with a modicum of common sense would understand that you're attempting to compare your own secret recipe with Worchestershire sauce. You say your secret recipe is the best there is. Well done, but that's a claim, not any sort of proof. Get BFL listed and we can talk apples to apples (same goes for MtGox, obviously).

My point was that I have run and continue to run successful business(s) on the Bitcoin platform and yet somehow I've managed to do this without WOT... again shooting your theory to hell and gone.  

Anecdotal evidence will hardly work in this context you realize. There's people who crossed the Atlantic in a barrel, that scarcely "shoots to hell and gone" the otherwise undisputed theory that you need some sort of ship in order to offer transatlantic transportation.

But for the record, as far as I'm concerned you're not much of a Bitcoin businessman. You're a forum loud mouth, currently stuck in the position of extracting BFL from the entire mess with the CEO-convicted-of-fraud, the entire mess with the "we've announced one spec, then the competition announced better stuff so we magically upped our spec", the entire mess with the "we're going to deliver in October except November except etcetera" and whatever other messes I don't know about, not being particularly interested in the completely marginal business you're in (mining, that is). So...yeah.

in fact, one you mentioned, MTGox, does not use it either... that kind of shoots your theory to hell right there.

Anyone with a modicum of common sense - hey, I like that expression! - would understand that had in fact MtGox used a GPG based system they wouldn't have found themselves in the sorry position of asking their entire userbase to change passwords and excuse the impending spam because "independent contractor" last year. If you weren't such a hard-headed ignoramus you might have noticed that Tux is in the WOT, as well as mtgox itself.

Why do you persist? After having what you're doing wrong explained, you stop doing it and move on. Not too hard now is it? Do you particularly wish to be remembered as "that ignorant lazy fuck who couldn't get over the fact that ignorance and laziness aren't arguments"?

[Inaba]

LOL... you are laughable man.  Good luck with your business ventures, it's clear you have exactly zero connection with business reality!

[kakobrekla]

it's clear you have exactly zero connection with business reality!

Says the guy who works for BullshitLabs.

[MPOE-PR]

LOL... you are laughable man.  Good luck with your business ventures, it's clear you have exactly zero connection with business reality!

Anything you wish to say as to the actual points raised?

[Inaba]

What points would you like me to address? I've addressed all your points already and you've provided nothing the counter, so the discussion appears to be over.  Your valuation of MPEx is ludicrous in the extreme.  You deny the fact that all of the major Bitcoin business do not use WOT (you've yet to name a single large Bitcoin business that uses WOT) and continue to maintain that WOT is required to run a successful business... which I've already shown that is a false statement.  

You hold up MPEx and Satoshi Dice as successful businesses, and give them valuation in the millions of dollars.  I mean, seriously, what is there to argue?  I've already provided you evidence and reasons as to why the utter nonsense you're claiming is evidence for your arguments is false and you just keep providing the same nonsensical arguments over and over.  BFL has sold tons of hardware, that is verifiable proof.  Bitpay is doing hundreds of thousands of dollars in business, that is verifiable proof.  MTGox does hundreds of thousands of dollars of transactions, that is verifiable proof.  

Your proof?  Random number input into the gribble calculator.  Heh... yeah, we are done here.

[Isokivi]

Okay, it's not a crime. It's just the first step down the road which brings pretty much 9x% to crime within six months to a year. So, here are some simple easy steps for your convenience.

Im commenting this as someone who just started a bitcoin buisness (the trade and production of physical goods for bitcoins). Im new and it's a learning process but Im doing supprisingly well so far.

0. Starting a bitcoin business is a liability. The first thing you need to understand, and you need to understand it well. At sixteen hundred hours while you were sitting around your living room scratching your ear you were worth X. Your life, your ideas, your business, the shit around your house that you own, all that which makes up your life, added together, worth X. At sixteen fifteen, eight minutes after you had started your Bitcoin business you were worth X-k, where k is always positive and SIGNIFICANT. Starting a Bitcoin business is a liability, it makes you worth less. In fact, all the rest of your life in Bitcoinland will be attempts, more or less successful, to limit and reduce that liability. This is the outlook you must have not in order to be successful, but in order to have a shot at it. This is the outlook you must have in order to not guarantee failure.

With this I can agree.

1. Identify yourself to the community. This means, at the very least, creating a WOT account. If you do not have a WOT account you are not part of Bitcoin business. This is the criteria, no matter what you might think. That's where everyone looks, no matter what social media might be telling you. If you aren't in the WOT you aren't in Bitcoin.

I personally did not set up an otc rating, but am outright telling who I am irl, all my products are available trough escrow if customers so want. I did try but (quoting myself): "talk about an unncessarily long and overcomplicated process."

This might also mean making a few social media profiles. The difference between an account on StumbleUpon called MyBTCBiz, a reddit account called BtcBlaBla, a myspace, tumblr, whatever and a forum account called MyBizPr is nil. They're all the same thing: social media profiles. Sure, they may be useful. You wouldn't think to substitute a forum registration for a company registration IRL, now would you? Same thing here.

Did the facebook thing, useless so far. Reddit had an obvious short time effect on sales. Havent tried anything else.

2. After completing step 1 spend at the very least six months learning. This attitude whereby you think you're great and valuable, so great and valuable in fact that you had the business idea first, then you ran into Bitcoin and then in the heat of the moment saw to that formality of a forum account so now you're ready for "investment" five hours later after dealing with the pesky minimum posts rules is bullshit. Pure bullshit. This isn't how it works, if you've not been in the WOT for six months you are not ready to start a Bitcoin business for reason of intellectual incapacity, irrespective of what you might think. (And yes, of course you will think you're the exception to this rule. You are not the exception, you are just unskilled and unwarare of it. The rule is exactly about you.)

Yes, maybe if Warren Buffett decided to go into Bitcoin he'd just put a notice on his Berkshire Hathaway website identifying his WOT handle and be ready in five minutes. The reason Warren Buffett can do that and you can't is that you're not Warren Buffett. Yes, one day you might become the next WB. That doesn't mean you're it today, consumer credit does not work in this field.

So, what you do during your six months is that

Im in buisness but very well aware that Im on this step, I am propably months away from having an automated payment system incorporated in to my own website. For now Im working around this by doing things manually on every order.

2.1. You buy some Bitcoins. Get a good idea of what the options for doing that are, how the exchanges work, how the OTC market works (if by now you do not know what OTC or WOT stand for add two months to your lockdown as punishment for being the sort of idiot who, when he encounters words he does not know, instead of investigating their meaning brushes them off to "get on with the reading").

2.2. You sell some Bitcoins. Get a good idea of how that works, how you get your money back out, what the limits are, so on and so forth. You wouldn't want to discover later that you have a billion dollars in Bitcoins you can never spend in any way, other than by donating to the Bitcoin Gates Foundation now would you? What sort of WB would that be?

I've been using bitcoin for 10 months now, so I'd like to think Im past this. My computer can be hacked but at most I allow myself to have 35 bitcoins on it at once, rest are split between an offline wallet and an exchange account with a strong two factor authentication.

These are not a waste of time. They are here to give you an idea of how your future customers will be seeing life. You want to buy some Bitcoins even if you don't need them, and sell them even if you don't need to and buy back just on general principle. You are unit testing the currency. Boring? Fuck you.

2.3. You read, on this forum, and you discuss with the market participants. You get your pecking order straight. Who are the movers and shakers? Whose word is worth 10k Bitcoins no questions asked and from whom? Why? You get the history straight. Who were the scammers, historically? How did they do it ? What are the patterns? How did the people who matter react, and why? What does that say about them, how does that color their relationships among each other?

I dont think I'll ever be looking in to lending, borrowing or investing any bitcoins. So I'd like to think this does not affect me.

If you don't have the list and don't comprehend how the interactions work, if you look at DeathandTaxes and have no fucking idea who he is, if you think we're buddies cause I mention him by name and so forth you're not done with this. Must lurk moar.

2.4. You ask questions. Only on step 2.4 do you ask questions, by the time you're here you have already done a lot of work! You have sunk into this upwards of a hundred hours of your spare time, whether you like it or not, you've filled half a notebook with dumbass scribblings, you have fucking hand-drawn maps hanging from your bedroom wall. This level of intensity is not an upper bound to aspire to, but a minimum requirement.

Your questions will get a lot of stupid answers but also a complete set of correct answers. Pick the set, disregard the rest, you're on your way.

+1 You always seem to get three wrongs for one right answer on these forums.

3. Announce your business plan. If you think your business plan has to be kept secret because otherwise others will steal it you are probably too stupid to be in business (not just BTC, but in general).

Buisness plan sure, products that Im not selling yet, no... I dont need competitors that fast Tbh I didnt announce anything until I had my first products and photos of them to show.

Let me explain to you how business "stealing" works: at the time MPEx was created (Feb 2012) there existed GLBSE already, which sucked at that time. Nobody flailing around in a cloud of stupidity almost mould-like in consistency seemed to be aware of it, but GLBSE sucked. And so Mr. P decided to make a securities exchange that worked right and was run correctly.

So, pro tip #1: there's so much to do and so few people capable of doing it in Bitcoin that if your plan makes sense and you seem even remotely competent everyone else who is competent will breathe a sigh of relief. They aren't going to "steal" your idea of doing the absolutely fucking obviously banal, cause so much is needed I couldn't begin to tell you.

Pro tip #2: if you are incompetent, the people who are competent aren't going to steal your business early. They are going to steal it late, just like MPEx demolished GLBSE. They don't need early mover advantage, they will come to your market six months or a year late, break off your arms and beat you over the head with them until you are reduced to a bloody mess.

So, forget about anyone "Stealing" your business. When S.DICE was announced, a bunch of forum muppets rambled on about how it's not worth its valuation because "everyone could do it". And I laughed at them then and so to prove my point that they're laughable idiots they declared that they shall do it! It's been months, who has managed to steal the business? You can't steal any business from the competent, and if you're competent yourself you don't even try to, cause it makes no business sense.

Thus, at the very least, step 3 gives you this measure of protection, whereby other competent people know you're doing X and so don't start doing X too. It saves our time and effort, rather than doing something twice do two of the fifty billion things that still need doing.

Obviously your announcement will gather a bunch of crap from a bunch of nobodies. But lucky for you, you've been doing this by the numbers, and you have the list. You know why you don't care what Joel Katz says about anything: what people who don't run businesses say is irrelevant. You know why you care what piuk says about anything to do with the blockchain (do you?).

4. Almost there.

4.1. If you actually got no objections, just pats on the back you're golden. Go do your thing, try your best not to fuck up, when in doubt ask people you trust and that's that.

4.2. If you actually had some objections, do not proceed until the people who raised them declared themselves satisfied. The odds that they don't have a point are dismal, and more importantly, the odds that they wouldn't withdraw objections along the lines of the most favorable construction for you are nil. If someone's pointing things out to you that won't work with your model they're right. If nobody is that still is not proof your model can work.

Stick to this and I might be hearing your name in a year or two. Don't, you just fade into the background noise, yet another of the many who keep paying ten or fifty dollars a month to be part of a new and exciting MMORPG, sorta like the glassy eyed FB credits buyers.

Good luck in any event.

[Fireball]

This MPOE-PR has gone too far. Claiming that their options exchange is the largest bitcoin business, false accusations to ICBIT to proof that MPOEX is the biggest exchange and ICBIT is scam, now attacking everyone else.

[rini17]

This MPOE-PR has gone too far. Claiming that their options exchange is the largest bitcoin business, false accusations to ICBIT to proof that MPOEX is the biggest exchange and ICBIT is scam, now attacking everyone else.

If you and your users are completely content with fact that neither you nor them can in retrospect satisfiably verify whether some order actually took place or not, then I understand requiring such high standard makes you nervous and you feel attacked. Correctly using GPG can alleviate such problems in many situations and thus makes scammers incomfortable. Please don't take that personally, I don't mean to insinuate you at all, I don't use icbit either. Just my 2c.

[MPOE-PR]

I personally did not set up an otc rating, but am outright telling who I am irl, all my products are available trough escrow if customers so want. I did try but (quoting myself): "talk about an unncessarily long and overcomplicated process."

Ok. I now copy your tellings, pictures, whatever you put up and claim I'm you. What can you do?

Read this and think about it. It may be seem long, unnecessarily complicated or whatever. It's in fact the minimally complex functional solution.

So I'd like to think this does not affect me.

This may be true. On the other hand, you never know when it will. Your proposition is akin to not having a credit score irl because "you don't plan to need it". Any financial advisor will tell you this is a bad strategy.

This MPOE-PR has gone too far. Claiming that their options exchange is the largest bitcoin business, false accusations to ICBIT to proof that MPOEX is the biggest exchange and ICBIT is scam, now attacking everyone else.

What is this, organizing The ButtHurt Team?

[Isokivi]

I personally did not set up an otc rating, but am outright telling who I am irl, all my products are available trough escrow if customers so want. I did try but (quoting myself): "talk about an unncessarily long and overcomplicated process."

Ok. I now copy your tellings, pictures, whatever you put up and claim I'm you. What can you do?

Read this and think about it. It may be seem long, unnecessarily complicated or whatever. It's in fact the minimally complex functional solution.

I do believe I stand corrected, I guess it's back to several hours of trying to figure out why the "guide to using the OTC web of trust" does not seem to work for me : /

[MPOE-PR]

I do believe I stand corrected, I guess it's back to several hours of trying to figure out why the "guide to using the OTC web of trust" does not seem to work for me : /

It's not too hard, if you join either #bitcoin-otc or #bitcoin-assets there's very likely someone there willing to help you.

[repentance]

I think there's around a dozen or so people in the bitcoin-community that want to run "beer factories", as someone put it.
The whole econosphere is much too small for multiple endeavors of that scale.

Most of the eco-universe surrounding bitcoin consists of micro-breweries with handwritten receipts.
As those breweries grow, they will necessarily have to adapt most procedures outlined.
Then they will be able to buy a factory. But that's years later.

One of the current problems in the Bitcoin world is businesses lacking the capacity to absorb rapid growth.  They simply don't have the resources to put in place the systems necessary to deal with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of other people's money because they started on a shoe-string without any high level infrastructure baked in and they haven't made significant profits a few months later when they're suddenly playing a whole different ball game. 

Many Bitcoin businesses don't have the capacity to adapt to rapid expansion because their owners have neither the resources nor the skills necessary to implement the changes required to see the business through a vulnerable period.  It doesn't help that the businesses are often "brand new" in real world terms and so the owners are still emotionally attached to their idea and don't necessarily make rational decisions about how to fund expansion.  We have a plethora of business owners who've never consulted an accountant, security expert or a lawyer but who are responsible for tens of thousands of dollars worth of other people's money.  They think that they "can't afford it" because they aren't making significant profits from their new business, yet it should be a standard start-up cost not something people are going to get around to when they "can afford it" (many businesses will fail long before they reach that point).

People in general underestimate just how much work is involved in operating your own business.  Those who dream of opening their own business so they don't have to answer to anyone and can work part-time are in for a rude shock and extremely likely to fail.

One thing I consistently hear back from Bitcoin business owners I talk to off-board is that they grossly under-estimated the level of attempted fraud they would encounter.  It's something for which every Bitcoin business needs to be prepared before they even launch because many have no capacity to absorb losses in their early months of operation - losing even a few thousand dollars to fraud will be catastrophic.

[crazyates]

I can sum up this entire thread in one sentence: My way or the highway.

[MPOE-PR]

One of the current problems in the Bitcoin world is businesses lacking the capacity to absorb rapid growth.  They simply don't have the resources to put in place the systems necessary to deal with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of other people's money because they started on a shoe-string without any high level infrastructure baked in and they haven't made significant profits a few months later when they're suddenly playing a whole different ball game. 

Many Bitcoin businesses don't have the capacity to adapt to rapid expansion because their owners have neither the resources nor the skills necessary to implement the changes required to see the business through a vulnerable period.  It doesn't help that the businesses are often "brand new" in real world terms and so the owners are still emotionally attached to their idea and don't necessarily make rational decisions about how to fund expansion.  We have a plethora of business owners who've never consulted an accountant, security expert or a lawyer but who are responsible for tens of thousands of dollars worth of other people's money.  They think that they "can't afford it" because they aren't making significant profits from their new business, yet it should be a standard start-up cost not something people are going to get around to when they "can afford it" (many businesses will fail long before they reach that point).

People in general underestimate just how much work is involved in operating your own business.  Those who dream of opening their own business so they don't have to answer to anyone and can work part-time are in for a rude shock and extremely likely to fail.

One thing I consistently hear back from Bitcoin business owners I talk to off-board is that they grossly under-estimated the level of attempted fraud they would encounter.  It's something for which every Bitcoin business needs to be prepared before they even launch because many have no capacity to absorb losses in their early months of operation - losing even a few thousand dollars to fraud will be catastrophic.

QFT.