Bitcoinica liquidator wants to hear from users

[disclaimer201]

Probably a combination of Gox and non-cooperation from the "gang". Whenever Gox claims they have to freeze accounts because
of AML or any other possible governmental/authorities concerns they were never asked the f to care about in the future you can rest assured it has nothing to do with actual authority concerns. The liquidators are appointed by a New Zealando court, so I guess unless those authorities aren't the CIA Gox won't give a shit.

After all that has gone down, I really don't see how this exchange is still number one when there are clearly more reliable alternatives out there.

[repentance]

If I was a cynic, I'd suspect that MtGox is trying to avoid handing Bitcoinica funds over to the liquidator while the Cartmell et al lawsuit is in progress so that whatever Bitcoinica funds they hold will be available to satisfy any judgement awarded by the California court.

[nrd525]

Everyone should email MtGox to ask for their prompt cooperation.

[disclaimer201]

Good idea, actually. Which address?

Also, I think the issue might deserve its own thread along the lines of "MtGox holding coins hostage from liquidators and bitcoinica customers".

[dancingnancy]

Interested to hear the response.

[repentance]

Interested to hear the response.

It will be plausible deniability all the way down.  Everyone's lawyers are going to protect their own client's interest here.

[dancingnancy]

Interested to hear the response.

It will be plausible deniability all the way down.  Everyone's lawyers are going to protect their own client's interest here.

That's pretty much been everyone's story this whole time.  Starting to get slightly old with BTC @ $27 each.

[repentance]

That's pretty much been everyone's story this whole time.  Starting to get slightly old with BTC @ $27 each.

Even more galling when you remember that the way that funds were returned following the MtGox intrusion meant that more was returned in USD than in BTC.

Although we know from Patrick Murck's posts how much was recovered following that intrusion, not even the liquidator knows how much is in Bitcoinica's MtGox accounts.

It's ironic that MtGox was fine about handing over information to AurumXchange following the intrusion but won't hand over information to a court-appointed liquidator.  It's clearly not in the interests of Bitcoinica users that they with-hold that information.

I would hope that the business run by a board member of Bitcoin Foundation would co-operate with the liquidator and be seen to do so.

[Herodes]

We apologise for the slow progress in the liquidation, but hopefully the investors will appreciate that we are making every effort to recover the bitcoins and funds in order to make a distribution to creditors as soon as possible.
 
Kind Regards
Taslim Bhamji
Senior Insolvency Administrator

Basically what he's saying is: "Hi, I wake up every morning, have my breakfast, go to work, come home, have my dinner and go to bed." Then by the end of the month he collects his paycheck, which he gets no matter whether he claws any funds back to the Bitcoinica users or not.

Lawyers never care about anything but themselves. It's a sad world.

[repentance]

Basically what he's saying is: "Hi, I wake up every morning, have my breakfast, go to work, come home, have my dinner and go to bed." Then by the end of the month he collects his paycheck, which he gets no matter whether he claws any funds back to the Bitcoinica users or not.

Lawyers never care about anything but themselves. It's a sad world.

Actually, fees for NZ liquidators have to be approved by the court in advance.  It's one reason why they don't formally process claims until they have funds in hand ready to disburse.  They're bound by all sorts of rules regarding taking actions unlikely to result in a benefit to creditors - such as pursuing claw-back when there is little hope of recovery - and can be personally sued if they fuck up to the detriment of creditors.  

What you often see NZ liquidators do where pursuing claw-back would likely be unsuccessful is subordinate claims - either in part or in full.

Unfortunately, when liquidators have no access to the financial records and assets of an entity it's a very slow process.

[Herodes]

Basically what he's saying is: "Hi, I wake up every morning, have my breakfast, go to work, come home, have my dinner and go to bed." Then by the end of the month he collects his paycheck, which he gets no matter whether he claws any funds back to the Bitcoinica users or not.

Lawyers never care about anything but themselves. It's a sad world.

Actually, fees for NZ liquidators have to be approved by the court in advance.  It's one reason why they don't formally process claims until they have funds in hand ready to disburse.  They're bound by all sorts of rules regarding taking actions unlikely to result in a benefit to creditors - such as pursuing claw-back when there is little hope of recovery - and can be personally sued if they fuck up to the detriment of creditors.  

What you often see NZ liquidators do where pursuing claw-back would likely be unsuccessful is subordinate claims - either in part or in full.

Unfortunately, when liquidators have no access to the financial records of an entity it's a very slow process.

Thanks for the insight repentance. It's funny, criminals are never bound by any rules, but those trying to set things straight are.

[Monster Tent]

If I was a cynic, I'd suspect that MtGox is trying to avoid handing Bitcoinica funds over to the liquidator while the Cartmell et al lawsuit is in progress so that whatever Bitcoinica funds they hold will be available to satisfy any judgement awarded by the California court.

Withdrawing that many funds from Mt Gox at once might be impossible if they themselves are running fractional reserve.

[repentance]

Thanks for the insight repentance. It's funny, criminals are never bound by any rules, but those trying to set things straight are.

Unfortunately, if MtGox chooses not to recognise the liquidator's authority, the liquidator may have a hard time justifying an international lawsuit - from memory, the only funds recovered so far are those which were in Bitcoinica's bank account which wouldn't go very far at all.

As an aside, the California court made an interesting ruling on 25 January regarding its jurisdiction over Intersango.

LAW AND MOTION 302, RULING: THE COURT ADOPTED ITS TENTATIVE RULING WHICH WAS NOT CONTESTED. SPECIALLY APPEARING DEFENDANT INTERSANGO LTD.'S MOTION TO QUASH SERVICE OF PROCESS FOR LACK OF PERSONAL JURISDICTION IS GRANTED. PLAINTIFF FAILED TO PRODUCE FACTS SHOWING DEFENDANT INTERSANGO, LTD HAS ANY CALIFORNIA CONTACTS RELEVANT TO THIS CASE. ORDER SIGNED IN OPEN COURT. JUDGE: MARLA J. MILLER; CLERK: GINA GONZALES; COURT REPORTER: ANTHONY C. VAUGHN, CSR # 6185

[nrd525]

File a support request:
https://support.mtgox.com/home

[dancingnancy]

That's pretty much been everyone's story this whole time.  Starting to get slightly old with BTC @ $27 each.

I would hope that the business run by a board member of Bitcoin Foundation would co-operate with the liquidator and be seen to do so.

Who's this?  The owner of Mt. Gox?  This thing has taken so long and been so drawn out I can't even remember who stole what anymore.  Do you know the E-Mail of the owner of Gox?

[repentance]

File a support request:
https://support.mtgox.com/home

Their response will undoubtedly be that they're just following the advice of their lawyers, yada, yada, yada and that of course they really care about whether or not the average Bitcoinica user gets their funds back but they can't leave themselves open to liability.

Who's this?  The owner of Mt. Gox?  This thing has taken so long and been so drawn out I can't even remember who stole what anymore.  Do you know the E-Mail of the owner of Gox?

Mark Karpeles is the CEO of MtGox.  He's also on the board of Bitcoin Foundation.  He's usually best contacted on IRC, where his username is MagicalTux.

[Transisto]

Thanks for the insight repentance. It's funny, criminals are never bound by any rules, but those trying to set things straight are.

Unfortunately, if MtGox chooses not to recognise the liquidator's authority, the liquidator may have a hard time justifying an international lawsuit - from memory, the only funds recovered so far are those which were in Bitcoinica's bank account which wouldn't go very far at all.

As an aside, the California court made an interesting ruling on 25 January regarding its jurisdiction over Intersango.

LAW AND MOTION 302, RULING: THE COURT ADOPTED ITS TENTATIVE RULING WHICH WAS NOT CONTESTED. SPECIALLY APPEARING DEFENDANT INTERSANGO LTD.'S MOTION TO QUASH SERVICE OF PROCESS FOR LACK OF PERSONAL JURISDICTION IS GRANTED. PLAINTIFF FAILED TO PRODUCE FACTS SHOWING DEFENDANT INTERSANGO, LTD HAS ANY CALIFORNIA CONTACTS RELEVANT TO THIS CASE. ORDER SIGNED IN OPEN COURT. JUDGE: MARLA J. MILLER; CLERK: GINA GONZALES; COURT REPORTER: ANTHONY C. VAUGHN, CSR # 6185

I think MtGox doesn't doubt the authority of the liquidator but for good reason they doubt of the capability of the liquidator.

These guys have a hard time giving us an update per month,  Force us to produce proof of ownership for virtual assets using the pen, paper and fax method.  Their email system can't receive ANY url in email, and reject every such email with a clueless reject error  message.

To sum up,,, in three month, they seems to have done nothing.  Oh, they asked us in public if we prefer to be paid in BTC or USD ... the answer was obviously a personal choice.

I DO NOT WANT THIS LIQUIDATOR TO DO ANYTHING WITH MY BTC.

Sorry but I'd much prefer MtGox to sit on my BTC for a few year,,, At which time 250 BTC might be enough to afford a lawsuit with some teethes, bitcoin competent lawyers and judges.  Currently not even a handful of lawyer and I doubt any Judges can produce any meaningful ruling out of this mess.

I was Long Long LONG ! on BTC,...  not going to forget about this lost without a good fight. (Be careful)

[repentance]

Thanks for the insight repentance. It's funny, criminals are never bound by any rules, but those trying to set things straight are.

Unfortunately, if MtGox chooses not to recognise the liquidator's authority, the liquidator may have a hard time justifying an international lawsuit - from memory, the only funds recovered so far are those which were in Bitcoinica's bank account which wouldn't go very far at all.

As an aside, the California court made an interesting ruling on 25 January regarding its jurisdiction over Intersango.

LAW AND MOTION 302, RULING: THE COURT ADOPTED ITS TENTATIVE RULING WHICH WAS NOT CONTESTED. SPECIALLY APPEARING DEFENDANT INTERSANGO LTD.'S MOTION TO QUASH SERVICE OF PROCESS FOR LACK OF PERSONAL JURISDICTION IS GRANTED. PLAINTIFF FAILED TO PRODUCE FACTS SHOWING DEFENDANT INTERSANGO, LTD HAS ANY CALIFORNIA CONTACTS RELEVANT TO THIS CASE. ORDER SIGNED IN OPEN COURT. JUDGE: MARLA J. MILLER; CLERK: GINA GONZALES; COURT REPORTER: ANTHONY C. VAUGHN, CSR # 6185

I think MtGox doesn't doubt the authority of the liquidator but for good reason they doubt of the capability of the liquidator.

These guys have a hard time giving us an update per month,  Force us to produce proof of ownership for virtual assets using the pen, paper and fax method.  Their email system can't receive ANY url in email, and reject every such email with a clueless reject error  message.

To sum up,,, in three month, they seems to have done nothing.  Oh, they asked us in public if we prefer to be paid in BTC or USD ... the answer was obviously a personal choice.

I DO NOT WANT THIS LIQUIDATOR TO DO ANYTHING WITH MY BTC.

Sorry but I'd much prefer MtGox to sit on my BTC for a few year,,, At which time 250 BTC might be enough to afford a lawsuit with some teethes, bitcoin competent lawyers and judges.  Currently not even a handful of lawyer and I doubt any Judges can produce any meaningful ruling out of this mess.

I was Long Long LONG ! on BTC,...  not going to forget about this lost without a good fight. (Be careful)

You can apply to the NZ High Court to have the liquidator removed and another appointed.  Liquidators typically issue a report every 6 months.  It's not like they're working 8 hours a day on one liquidation, and there's very little they or anyone else can do without access to Bitcoinica's records and funds.

A great deal of legal stuff does still need to be done in hard copy - that is not unusual.  A court would require the same.

You're not obligated to make a claim in the liquidation.  You can certainly take separate legal action if you want, but expect it to cost tens of thousands of dollars with no certainty whatsoever that whoever you decide to sue will have any assets.

MtGox is unlikely to sit on Bitcoinica's funds for a few years.  They'll end up being released either to the liquidator or to the plaintiffs in the Cartmell lawsuit if they prevail in court.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Here's my take. Either Mark does everything in his power to accelerate this process or remove himself from the The Bitcoin Foundation board. As I read it now, Mt Gox can stonewall this process ad infinitum, meanwhile utilizing the funds for day-to-day operations, something I've previously claimed is happening. Do you honestly believe a bank wouldn't touch a million dollars, e.g., sitting in some liquidation account while litigation was in process? Using the same example, if that same million was no longer readily available, said bank would go into stall mode if it looked like there's a chance that it's about to be transferred out.

The funds were place with Mt Gox in good faith and being the most safest place to place them. Sadly, the latter is being proven true, for it's now so safe, nobody can touch it.

Maybe I'm off-base here, yet something to think about.

~Bruno K~

[MPOE-PR]

Here's my take. Either Mark does everything in his power to accelerate this process or remove himself from the The Bitcoin Foundation board. As I read it now, Mt Gox can stonewall this process ad infinitum, meanwhile utilizing the funds for day-to-day operations, something I've previously claimed is happening. Do you honestly believe a bank wouldn't touch a million dollars, e.g., sitting in some liquidation account while litigation was in process? Using the same example, if that same million was no longer readily available, said bank would go into stall mode if it looked like there's a chance that it's about to be transferred out.

The funds were place with Mt Gox in good faith and being the most safest place to place them. Sadly, the latter is being proven true, for it's now so safe, nobody can touch it.

Maybe I'm off-base here, yet something to think about.

~Bruno K~

This sort of stuff happens all the time, it's called venue shopping. Absent a domesticated court order MtGox can legally do whatever they please. Why should they consider the proceedings of some NZ authority above and beyond the proceedings of some CA authority? (Or vice-versa, for that matter). They don't really care either way, let all those people sort out their problems, get the court order. Whoever gets it first gets the jackpot.

You can't expect a company to expend the resources to follow international litigation. They're barely profitable on top of the expenses required by not getting hacked more than once a year, not having their email db dumped more than once a year and so forth.