Gun free zone

[bb113]

Is it that they had mental health problems beforehand that led to the shootings? Or is it that they got treated for mental health problems. I have seen too many people fucked up by psychiatrists not to suspect this. If others have opposing anecdotes I would love to be dissuaded from this theory.

[Lethn]

It could be either way but unfortunately we may never know because everyones too focused on inanimate objects to care, I know I'd go psychotic and start shooting at people if psychiatrists forced drugs into me.

[organofcorti]

If we're going to talk statistics, then some citations for your allegations would be handy.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18559_162-525965.html

Shawn struggled with learning disabilities and significant emotional problems.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-arizona-shooting-gabbie-giffords-20121108,0,4209374.story

After the shooting, he was diagnosed with schizophrenia and underwent forcible psychotropic drug treatments.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/seung-hui-chos-mental-health-records-released/story?id=8278195#.UNV0NjkU-Uk

Cho had been admitted overnight to the hospital after his roommate became concerned when Cho threatened to take his own life.
....

Ah, I see what you mean.

No, I don't mean citing journalists. I mean citing (for example) bureau of statistics data, or a peer reviewed journal article or similar. I'm leery of believing sensationalist mass media reports, especially those from the US.

[Lethn]

I'll have to do some digging around to find stuff like that but right now I need another coffee

[organofcorti]

I'll have to do some digging around to find stuff like that but right now I need another coffee

Dammit! I was fine until then. Now I need a coffee too. *Yawn*

(I hope I just made you yawn too, bastard)

[myrkul]

Even if that society ostracised you for gun ownership (assuming you have one, and wear it in public)? Your feelings could be hurt significantly. More to the point though, you'd probably find it difficult to have sex with other people.

Would you give up guns if a) you lived in a safe society and b) gun ownership meant that your options for having coital experiences were reduced? Or would you move to a society where the norms included mandatory gun ownership, or something similar?

I just want to see how you'd be influenced by your society - would you change your mind, or change your environment?

If the society I lived in was both safe, and looked down upon gun ownership, I would most likely seek another safe society that accepted - "accepted" would be first choice, "preferred" second, and "required" a very distant third - gun ownership. I have very little desire to be where I am not welcome. If it was not safe, I'm afraid it would be my nature to attempt to show them the error of their ways - which is exactly what I am doing in this thread. The society in the US is not safe, and it is precisely the refusal to honor people's right to self-defense (among other things) that is the cause.

Thankfully, I have no need to fear loss of coital experiences for my views, as I am lucky enough to have found a woman who shares them.

[organofcorti]

Even if that society ostracised you for gun ownership (assuming you have one, and wear it in public)? Your feelings could be hurt significantly. More to the point though, you'd probably find it difficult to have sex with other people.

Would you give up guns if a) you lived in a safe society and b) gun ownership meant that your options for having coital experiences were reduced? Or would you move to a society where the norms included mandatory gun ownership, or something similar?

I just want to see how you'd be influenced by your society - would you change your mind, or change your environment?

If the society I lived in was both safe, and looked down upon gun ownership, I would most likely seek another society that accepted - "accepted" would be first choice, "preferred" second, and "required" a distant third - gun ownership. I have very little desire to be where I am not welcome. If it was not safe, I'm afraid it would be my nature to attempt to show them the error of their ways - which is exactly what I am doing in this thread. The society in the US is not safe, and it is precisely the refusal to honor people's right to self-defense (among other things) that is the cause.

Thankfully, I have no need to fear loss of coital experiences for my views, as I am lucky enough to have found a woman who shares them.

So, even if there was absolutely no chance that there would ever be the need for a gun in a given society (unrealistic, yes, but that's not the point) and that society did look down on you for gun ownership, you'd relocate somewhere gun ownership is not an issue?

So for you, the gun control issue is a problem because you like guns (that's understandable - everyone should have a hobby) more than it is about your political views?

I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, that's not my intention. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I know that wasn't directed at me, but I would like to answer.

I have a gun (several actually). I wear one in public (and private).

Some things outweigh others. Proving "a" would have much more influence over my decisions than "b" being a reality. In fact, I doubt "b" would have any influence at all.

I would never move from a society where I have a choice to a society where I don't, unless there were very strong reasons for doing so (like, my kid needs medical treatment every day and this is the only place in the world which offers that specific treatment). Quite the opposite is true. I'm more likely to relocate to a place where I have more freedom in my choices.

I wasn't asking if myrkul (or anyone) would move to a society in which they had fewer freedoms. I was asking if guns were so important to you that you'd move to obtain those freedoms, or if you'd bow to societal pressure and give the guns up. It's a question about how much you value gun ownership.

[organofcorti]

So, even if there was absolutely no chance that there would ever be the need for a gun in a given society (unrealistic, yes, but that's not the point) and that society did look down on you for gun ownership, you'd relocate somewhere gun ownership is not an issue?

I would not relocate.

I wasn't asking if myrkul (or anyone) would move to a society in which they had fewer freedoms. I was asking if guns were so important to you that you'd move to obtain those freedoms, or if you'd bow to societal pressure and give the guns up. It's a question about how much you value gun ownership.

I see. I value gun ownership as long as I feel it serves a purpose.

I'm glad you answered. I don't know much about the reasons people want to own guns, but I'm getting a feel for it now.

[myrkul]

So, even if there was absolutely no chance that there would ever be the need for a gun in a given society (unrealistic, yes, but that's not the point) and that society did look down on you for gun ownership, you'd relocate somewhere gun ownership is not an issue?

So for you, the gun control issue is a problem because you like guns (that's understandable - everyone should have a hobby) more than it is about your political views?

If gun ownership were merely a hobby, or if there were truly no need, ever, for the gun, I would simply leave the damn thing at home, and eat my dinner in peace. But in the real world (Which is where I like to do my living, flawed as it is.) that's not the case. As I explained earlier, gun (to be more precise, weapon) ownership is a right, and both depends upon and supports the right to life. If I feel that right is being infringed upon, even with mere societal pressure, then I will not desire to be in that situation. Honestly, it depends on the severity of the pressure. if it's just a few jabs for being "that crazy gun nut," then I'd probably just go ahead and own it, and be proud of my iconoclasm. If it's active ostracism  - ie, I find it hard to find not only a date, but dinner - then I would most likely leave the foul stench behind me, and good riddance.

I don't know much about the reasons people want to own guns, but I'm getting a feel for it now.

Might I suggest a song by a lady named Leslie Fish, called "They Were Having a Sale at the Gun Store"? Outlines the reasons quite well, if you ask me.

[organofcorti]

So, even if there was absolutely no chance that there would ever be the need for a gun in a given society (unrealistic, yes, but that's not the point) and that society did look down on you for gun ownership, you'd relocate somewhere gun ownership is not an issue?

So for you, the gun control issue is a problem because you like guns (that's understandable - everyone should have a hobby) more than it is about your political views?

..... if there were truly no need, ever, for the gun, I would simply leave the damn thing at home, and eat my dinner in peace. But in the real world (Which is where I like to do my living, flawed as it is.) that's not the case.

My thought experiment was about a society where guns were not needed - that's what I meant by "safe". It's unrealistic and perhaps impossible, but what I wanted to understand was the importance you attached to guns rather than self defense. Your initial response is quite different to your subsequent one, so I mustn't have made my point clear.

Like Holliday, your preference for a society allowing gun control appears a utilitarian preference - if guns are not necessary, you wouldn't have one.

I don't know much about the reasons people want to own guns, but I'm getting a feel for it now.

Might I suggest a song by a lady named Leslie Fish, called "They Were Having a Sale at the Gun Store"? Outlines the reasons quite well, if you ask me.

Funny thing, I don't listen to music anymore. It's like a drug for me and I could waste a whole days enjoying music. So I stay away from any music I could possibly enjoy. My tastes are quite eclectic, so it's a bit of a problem.

So I read the lyrics instead, and they scared the shit out of me. This really happens in the US? Or is it hyperbole? I can't tell, and that scares me too. It's not about a real event, is it?

[augustocroppo]

If we're going to talk statistics, then some citations for your allegations would be handy.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18559_162-525965.html

Shawn struggled with learning disabilities and significant emotional problems.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-arizona-shooting-gabbie-giffords-20121108,0,4209374.story

After the shooting, he was diagnosed with schizophrenia and underwent forcible psychotropic drug treatments.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/seung-hui-chos-mental-health-records-released/story?id=8278195#.UNV0NjkU-Uk

Cho had been admitted overnight to the hospital after his roommate became concerned when Cho threatened to take his own life.

Statistics and science are wrong, but the news must be right...

Oh dear... What a bunch of delusional users in this thread.

Tell me, what make you to trust in the above news to determine the shooters were affected by a mental disorder?

[augustocroppo]

If it was not safe, I'm afraid it would be my nature to attempt to show them the error of their ways - which is exactly what I am doing in this thread. The society in the US is not safe, and it is precisely the refusal to honor people's right to self-defense (among other things) that is the cause.

This majority of users in this forum are not only from USA. From what I read, few proposals were made to CONTROL the access to guns, not to BAN the access to guns.

By the way, self-defense is a right or a duty?

It appears you cannot even understand the difference of both definitions.

[myrkul]

By the way, self-defense is a right or a duty?

It appears you cannot even understand the difference of both definitions.

It appears you cannot understand the fact that it is both.

So I read the lyrics instead, and they scared the shit out of me. This really happens in the US? Or is it hyperbole? I can't tell, and that scares me too. It's not about a real event, is it?

No, it is hyperbole. The last line, however, is simple honest truth: As long as there's one gun in the world, you'd best have you a gun too. Because sure as the sun rises in the east, someone like AugustoCroppo will get a hold of it eventually, and then we're all fucked.

So safety is a relative thing.

[Richy_T]

Teacher shoots the offender.

Academics are not known for their fighting ability.

School teachers also are not known for they shooting skills.

Some are:

http://www2.tbo.com/news/news/2012/jun/12/memeto1-teacher-sets-sights-on-olympic-medal-ar-414880/

The difference is that many teachers are not physically equipped to be able to fight well. Women in particular typically have much reduced upper-body strength compared to men (despite Hollywood's depictions to the contrary). Shooting, however, is a skill which can be rather quickly brought up to an acceptable level by all but the inept (And I don't think there are many who wouldn't accept a requirement for teachers to have to qualify).

[FirstAscent]

Honestly unless you know what you are doing with statistics ( you love math) better to use your personal opinion and experiences with a dash of some expert dude who used statistics said this. Most who collect and analyze then publish the data fuck it up somehow. 8 times out 10 at least.

+100000

Many statistics are pushed by propaganda and not presented properly or people outright lie using them, so for instance, they'll present you with a poll from about 5000 people or something and then claim because 5000 people said this that automatically represents the majority of the people when that's barely going to be even a small portion of the actual country they are in. Bitcoinbitcoin113 you don't even need to understand math particularly well to understand bogus statistics when you see them, usually it's just a matter of reading through the fine print rather than just believing the simple percentages these dick heads come up with to fool people who don't know better.

It's much worse than even that. Really I got my data and actually tried to understand how to analyze it,(apparently this is rare amongst scientists these days) then found out pretty much no scientist knows what they are doing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_hypothesis_testing#Controversy

It gets even worse when John Lott is the one analyzing the data.

[Richy_T]

I'm gun control people. But I tend to think there are countries for which it won't work, and countries for which it will.

The responses in this thread show clearly that for some US citizens, giving up guns is as good as stepping in front of a bus. While it's possible that not having a gun is not fatal, it does seem to be a real fear. Removing guns for these people isn't going to make them feel more secure, but just the reverse.

Any country where people feel the need to have weapons to protect themselves from other citizens or from the government should probably work on that lack of security before they advocate gun control.

I think you are seeing things slightly from the wrong perspective. It's not that gun owners are "scared" of being attacked by citizens or government. These things do happen, even in countries with near absolute gun control such as the UK. My perspective is that gun owners are not afraid of guns. They see them as tools that perform a function. Owning guns is therefore simply a freedom whose abridgement should be opposed as that of any other freedom.

I speak as an emigrant from the UK and former gun control advocate. Shortly after moving to the US, events happened in my life (unrelated to guns or violence) that opened my eyes to the fact that bad things happen to good people. Sometime after, analysis of my situation suggested that owning some kind of firearm might be a good idea (where we lived was a prime spot for people dumping their unwanted dogs). When I got it home, I was somewhat nervous. I had handled a rifle before in the ATC but here was one of those evil handguns in my possession. Within seconds of picking it up, it was clear that it was just metal and plastic, incapable of harming anyone by itself nor inducing some primal urge to kill. Just a thing. Kind-of boring in-and-of itself. I've never had to use it but it's fun to shoot holes in paper and there have been times I've been glad to have it around.

[FirstAscent]

This majority of users in this forum are not only from USA. From what I read, few proposals were made to CONTROL the access to guns, not to BAN the access to guns.

The majority of users in this thread are not a reasonable cross-section of the US populace. In fact, the majority of users in this thread are fringe on the cusp of believing in conspiracies, anti-government, gun toting, see villains in all the shadows, anti-regulation, pseudo anarchists. They do not represent the US. I suggest you be careful in soliciting their opinion to get a valid take on US culture. However, it is noted that gun culture is rampant in the US, but querying the extreme right end of that group alone will only yield the beliefs of that extreme right end.

[FirstAscent]

I'm gun control people. But I tend to think there are countries for which it won't work, and countries for which it will.

The responses in this thread show clearly that for some US citizens, giving up guns is as good as stepping in front of a bus. While it's possible that not having a gun is not fatal, it does seem to be a real fear. Removing guns for these people isn't going to make them feel more secure, but just the reverse.

Any country where people feel the need to have weapons to protect themselves from other citizens or from the government should probably work on that lack of security before they advocate gun control.

I think you are seeing things slightly from the wrong perspective. It's not that gun owners are "scared" of being attacked by citizens or government. These things do happen, even in countries with near absolute gun control such as the UK. My perspective is that gun owners are not afraid of guns. They see them as tools that perform a function. Owning guns is therefore simply a freedom whose abridgement should be opposed as that of any other freedom.

I speak as an emigrant from the UK and former gun control advocate. Shortly after moving to the US, events happened in my life (unrelated to guns or violence) that opened my eyes to the fact that bad things happen to good people. Sometime after, analysis of my situation suggested that owning some kind of firearm might be a good idea (where we lived was a prime spot for people dumping their unwanted dogs). When I got it home, I was somewhat nervous. I had handled a rifle before in the ATC but here was one of those evil handguns in my possession. Within seconds of picking it up, it was clear that it was just metal and plastic, incapable of harming anyone by itself nor inducing some primal urge to kill. Just a thing. Kind-of boring in-and-of itself. I've never had to use it but it's fun to shoot holes in paper and there have been times I've been glad to have it around.

I've never had to use it

Ahh. The truth comes out. The norm. The reality of life in our violent country.

I've never had to use it

[notme]

If we're going to talk statistics, then some citations for your allegations would be handy.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18559_162-525965.html

Shawn struggled with learning disabilities and significant emotional problems.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-arizona-shooting-gabbie-giffords-20121108,0,4209374.story

After the shooting, he was diagnosed with schizophrenia and underwent forcible psychotropic drug treatments.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/seung-hui-chos-mental-health-records-released/story?id=8278195#.UNV0NjkU-Uk

Cho had been admitted overnight to the hospital after his roommate became concerned when Cho threatened to take his own life.

Statistics and science are wrong, but the news must be right...

Oh dear... What a bunch of delusional users in this thread.

Tell me, what make you to trust in the above news to determine the shooters were affected by a mental disorder?

Maybe the fact that they killed people.  Healthy minds don't do that.

[Richy_T]

From what I've seen, media tends to misrepresent the word. Perhaps that has something to do with it?

It does have a bit of a shady history. And then you have left-anarchists and right-anarchists