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[woodrake]

Hi guys,

I'm very keen on this firm since it would be good to spread the risk and diversify away from just ASICminer. To that end I've bought a few hundred dollars worth of bASIC and am quite keen to go further, but I too share lunarboy's concerns (more below).

I'm looking into acquiring some shares here. I couldn't find anything with regards to your purchasing plan?

Do you have a timeline of intentions to expand?  Particularly your intentions to purchase more ASIC hardware from where and how much?

Welcome lunarboy. The original contract(OP) called for IPO funds to be applied to bulk ASIC purchases. I laid the groundwork for this with the now defunct BTCFPGA, but this was always conditional upon receipt of our first bASIC01 mining unit, which didn't happen. We've since had the same problem that every other ASIC mining company has faced in that we're unable to deploy funds for more hardware with a reasonable time to delivery.

The Avalon orders that the company now owns were intended to be stop gap measures to get us more efficient gear to add to our stable of GPUs while we wait for the ASIC hardware field to develop. Looking forward, ASICMiner + Avalon B2, B3, chip sales, & potentially B4 will raise difficulty significantly and as a result it's difficult to see ASICMiner blades offering a positive ROI with their current price. There are simply no other ASIC mining hardware options available at this time.

When there are options available that make sense whether custom built hardware based on Avalon chips with reasonable delivery times, ASICMiner blades at reasonable prices, or a new player in the field we'll have the opportunity and resources to significantly increase our hashing power.

Please can you share your reasoning on why ASICMiner blades will not be a positive ROI? I must tend to agree that there is a conflict of interest with them (running it themselves vs. selling the hardware) which is likely to put the price up, but here are my sums:

• Price per blade: 50 BTC ~= $6,000.
• Assuming 75 Watts and $0.15/kWh power ~= $0.27/day
• According to this profit calculator at 10 GH/sec ~= 0.45 BTC/day.

Assuming a linear 50% reduction in yield over the first year (probably excessively aggressive) - ie. 0.45 BTC/day at the start of the year, 0.225 BTC/day at the end - we get:

 0.34 BTC/day x 365 days = 123.2 BTC ~= $14,750

That's an enormous yield in year one and swiftly pays for the entire capital outlay - seems like a good deal to me! Going forwards using the same 50% decline it would still be a massive pay-earning ratio (which is what markets care about).

Further, the longer you wait the less valuable the hashing power you can get will be - this is an arms race. I'd encourage you to buy ASICMiner's units if you can.

Kate.

Disclosure: Yes I have ASICminer shares too, but I genuinely believe in healthy competition and its merits for the market as a whole - plus I want to diversify.

[matt4054]

I agree with Kate, that is why I ordered a Blade myself. I know that the hashate / invested BTC is much lower than Avalon batch 2 or 3 but I still think it is priced in a way that allows for a decent ROI.

It is nice to see the stock price rising a bit, and I have good hope that it will trade above 1 BTC a share in a short time.

PS: BFL is not an option, of course ;-)

[woodrake]

I agree with Kate, that is why I ordered a Blade myself. I know that the hashate / invested BTC is much lower than Avalon batch 2 or 3 but I still think it is priced in a way that allows for a decent ROI.

Have they delivered? I'm curious to know what their turnaround / delivery time is like.

PS: BFL is not an option, of course ;-)

Hell no! :p

Kate.

[matt4054]

Have they delivered? I'm curious to know what their turnaround / delivery time is like.

I'm still waiting for a reply to my e-mail. They must be very busy at the moment.
I will follow-up here too when I get it.

[creativex]

Please can you share your reasoning on why ASICMiner blades will not be a positive ROI?

Hi Kate. There are no guarantees of course, but I'd expect a far greater than 50% reduction in profits over a one year period. ASICMiner alone has mentioned 260Th+ of chips that they expect to take delivery of in the next quarter+ and we know these are already funded as they cut dividends to investors to fund them. ASICMiner's hashrate has grown by 200% over the past 30 days alone, so they're clearly able to make large gains and this doesn't include the hardware they've already sold and will sell in the near future.

Avalon has sold thousands of chips that will result in numerous custom solutions as well as the hashes added from batch 2 and batch 3. Then there are several other projects announced, some of which will likely result in actual products. In short, difficulty is up over 130% in the last 60 days and I think we're just seeing the tip of the ASIC iceberg.

Cheers. 

[stslimited]

hm I had shares in BASIC-MINING, past tense, but I didn't realize all this speculation in ASICMiner blades was going on over here, right next door.



I woke up one morning to find out I won an auction, everyone won. The clock was ticking on paying, I wired money to Mt Gox that day from America, 13 hours later it was in my Mt Gox account. I bought bitcoins and commingled them with some of my other holdings to send to John K's escrow.

Time after winning auction = 24 hours.
Tracking number was received before 36 hour mark.

after that, the blade shipped from Gangzhou region to New York City in 48 hours, I called DHL to let me pick it up that morning, it was going to be out for delivery, but they got it off the truck for me and I had my blade.

Out the box it is 13 GH/s on 1.20v. Friedcat is doing a lot of clever things with the way these blades are advertised and sold.

Literally all estimates I have seen regarding how much these blades will make have neglected the transaction fee earnings.

Yesterday my preferred pool found a block with 59 btc. More than double the block reward in transaction fees alone.

[gimme_bottles]

wow, shares selling like crazy  feels good to have bought at .33 

[matt4054]

Yes, the stock price is still rising (like a chicken some would say). I did recommend BASIC-MINING to serveral of friends who want to invest in BTC, and I'm still filling the buy order, hoping to grab some cheap shares while I can.

AM is overvalued at the moment IMHO, it will probably be a good time to buy back when it will fall below 2 (this is pure speculation but I don't think it will stay above 2 forever).

On the other hand you have BASIC-MINING, with imminent delivery of >60 GH/s, and the same 2-3 months later, for a bit more than 3000 shareholders. And I'm pretty sure the price for each share can go well above 1.0 while I don't see AM much over 2.0 in the long run.

Time will tell :-)

[gimme_bottles]

Yes, the stock price is still rising (like a chicken some would say). I did recommend BASIC-MINING to serveral of friends who want to invest in BTC, and I'm still filling the buy order, hoping to grab some cheap shares while I can.

AM is overvalued at the moment IMHO, it will probably be a good time to buy back when it will fall below 2 (this is pure speculation but I don't think it will stay above 2 forever).

On the other hand you have BASIC-MINING, with imminent delivery of >60 GH/s, and the same 2-3 months later, for a bit more than 3000 shareholders. And I'm pretty sure the price for each share can go well above 1.0 while I don't see AM much over 2.0 in the long run.

Time will tell :-)

i hope time will tell exactly what you wrote, because i sold my AM shares at 2,6 

[woodrake]

Hi Kate. There are no guarantees of course, but I'd expect a far greater than 50% reduction in profits over a one year period. ASICMiner alone has mentioned 260Th+ of chips that they expect to take delivery of in the next quarter+ and we know these are already funded as they cut dividends to investors to fund them. ASICMiner's hashrate has grown by 200% over the past 30 days alone, so they're clearly able to make large gains and this doesn't include the hardware they've already sold and will sell in the near future.

Avalon has sold thousands of chips that will result in numerous custom solutions as well as the hashes added from batch 2 and batch 3. Then there are several other projects announced, some of which will likely result in actual products. In short, difficulty is up over 130% in the last 60 days and I think we're just seeing the tip of the ASIC iceberg.

That's a fair point, and having looked into the costs of Avalon chips and the costs to integrate them into a mining rig I'm coming around to the point of view that ASICminer's rigs are a bit pricey.

However, I am less certain that the ASIC iceberg will be too disastrous. Yes, it is an orders of magnitude development in the field, but I am confident that Moore's Law (in its broadest application to computing, storage etc - not just transistor density) will apply to a degree. Therefore I think there will be room for development post-ASIC too.

Of course there I have just argued against myself and am agreeing with you that the only way to fight ASICminer is for BASIC to build/integrate the rigs themselves.

Kate.

[creativex]

Thanks everyone for making bASIC-MINING a success, much appreciated.

Hi Kate. There are no guarantees of course, but I'd expect a far greater than 50% reduction in profits over a one year period. ASICMiner alone has mentioned 260Th+ of chips that they expect to take delivery of in the next quarter+ and we know these are already funded as they cut dividends to investors to fund them. ASICMiner's hashrate has grown by 200% over the past 30 days alone, so they're clearly able to make large gains and this doesn't include the hardware they've already sold and will sell in the near future.

Avalon has sold thousands of chips that will result in numerous custom solutions as well as the hashes added from batch 2 and batch 3. Then there are several other projects announced, some of which will likely result in actual products. In short, difficulty is up over 130% in the last 60 days and I think we're just seeing the tip of the ASIC iceberg.

That's a fair point, and having looked into the costs of Avalon chips and the costs to integrate them into a mining rig I'm coming around to the point of view that ASICminer's rigs are a bit pricey.

However, I am less certain that the ASIC iceberg will be too disastrous. Yes, it is an orders of magnitude development in the field, but I am confident that Moore's Law (in its broadest application to computing, storage etc - not just transistor density) will apply to a degree. Therefore I think there will be room for development post-ASIC too.

Of course there I have just argued against myself and am agreeing with you that the only way to fight ASICminer is for BASIC to build/integrate the rigs themselves.

Kate.

To clarify, I don't see ASIC mining technology as disastrous at all(quite the opposite in fact), I merely meant that the bulk of this juggernaut remains below the surface at this time IMO. I believe there's a risk of overpaying for gear at this time when we know from history that the market will seek an equilibrium where mining is again marginally profitable. When this occurs those that overpaid or have above average running costs may or may not see a positive ROI, but the risks should not be underestimated.

As we move toward a time when ASIC mining hardware delivery times are significantly reduced to a more typical customer oriented business model I believe it becomes even more essential to deploy capital wisely. Ironically none have done more to hasten this move than friedcat and the excellent management team at ASICMiner.

Cheers.

[parseval]

Some nice volume and price increase here.  I hope it keeps up!

Here's a chart (warning, dev server in alpha):

http://coinflow.co/chart/BASIC-MINING

[creativex]

Some nice volume and price increase here.  I hope it keeps up!

Here's a chart (warning, dev server in alpha):

http://coinflow.co/chart/BASIC-MINING

Gorgeous chart, really nice work. Tip sent.

Edit: Going over the chart reminded me that I'd intended to change my contact email from att.net servers to broadstripe.net servers as att.net has been unreliable of late. I've asked burnside to make this change.

Shareholders, please contact me at creativex@broadstripe.net if you need to reach me or simply PM me here. I'm occasionally slow, particularly on weekends, but I'll get back to you.

OP updated to reflect this change.

[miTgiB]

Some nice volume and price increase here.  I hope it keeps up!

Here's a chart (warning, dev server in alpha):

http://coinflow.co/chart/BASIC-MINING

Only thing I would wish for is ability to compare with another security on BTC-TC, but great job with what you have !

[lunarboy]

Some nice volume and price increase here.  I hope it keeps up!

Here's a chart (warning, dev server in alpha):

http://coinflow.co/chart/BASIC-MINING

Only thing I would wish for is ability to compare with another security on BTC-TC, but great job with what you have !

Great work, the community has needed something like this for some time. Would add that it would be nice to see 'shares in issue/total shares' and IPO price/date on the information pages of each company.

[wiak2]

Yikes, shares getting scooped up fast today!  Was waiting for a bank transfer to clear to get some more, looks like I might not be getting as many as I planned!   

[miTgiB]

Yikes, shares getting scooped up fast today!  Was waiting for a bank transfer to clear to get some more, looks like I might not be getting as many as I planned!   

You can always buy MININGCO.ETF which sets it's NAV based on the 7d average, last updated bASIC-MINING at .50 as a way to slide in a bit cheaper

[wiak2]

Yikes, shares getting scooped up fast today!  Was waiting for a bank transfer to clear to get some more, looks like I might not be getting as many as I planned!   

You can always buy MININGCO.ETF which sets it's NAV based on the 7d average, last updated bASIC-MINING at .50 as a way to slide in a bit cheaper

I still think .62 BTC/share is cheap for where it'll be once even the first ASIC gets delivered.  As mentioned earlier in this thread, the daily dividend is going to jump substantially immediately, and with around 1000 BTC on hand and growing, bASIC will be in great position to increase their hashes by leaps and bounds once ASICS become more available. 

[carnitastaco]

Any new thoughts on putting the btc reserves to work?

Nothing new. ASICMiner is the only immediately available product and the cost/Gh is too high. I did toss out a bid in their final auction 3@48?, but it took over 50BTC each to secure a blade. There just aren't a whole lot of options out there just now.

Then why are you holding 950 BTC (up recently from 600ish)?  Return some or most of the money to shareholders if you have no idea what to spend it on- you can always do a secondary offering, or resume retaining some portion of divs for reinvestment. 

I hope people who are buying Basic realize that most of what they are buying is just a pile of bitcoins that you aren't doing anything with.  Good for the safety of the investment, but bad for the return.  If you return funds, you let investors decide whether they want to invest in your batch 2 and 3 avalons without having to tie up half the share value in cold storage at no return.

I'm not even arguing that the asicminer blades are a great investment or that the avalon chips are a must buy, just that you're a supposed mining company that has raised a ton of money and (according to you) has no use for it.

heres a quote from March 25-

Quote from: Carnth on March 25, 2013, 08:19:25 AM
I can't wait to get the ASICs mining. Diff is only going to get worse.
I'm glad bASIC-MINING is working to stay competitive.

creativex- The recent expansion plans announced by the ASICMiner team led me to conclude that we cannot afford to sit idly on a pile of BTC waiting for the ASIC picture to clear and remain competitive going forward.

but that is EXACTLY what you've done since then.  You've deployed 0 new hashing power while the projected value of the incoming hashing power has declined precipitously.  Going forward your share of hashing power will only decline unless and until some ASIC manufacturer puts some hardware up for sale at a price thats obviously profitable, but why should we expect that to happen when demand is so high at asicminers prices?

Honestly, comparing this company to asicminer based on the expected dividends at the moment you get batch 2 is a joke- here you are buying a continuously decreasing (due to dilution) share of an avalon or two with continuously decreasing profitability (due to difficulty as asic hardware saturates the market) and a pile of BTC in cold storage.  With Asicminer you're buying continuously INCREASING hashing power (due to continuing rollout), a share of hardware sales (at a price CreativeX thinks is unprofitable for buyers, or in other words, profitable for the seller) and importantly, a piece of future hardware development- gen 2 sales and hashing and etc.

Anyway, good luck to creative and to shareholders, just my .02.

[creativex]

Hi carnitastaco, thanks for your perspective. A few things to keep in mind.

First, I fairly recently suggested an increase in dividends paid from company cash on hand. This was met with near unanimous disapproval, so I shelved the idea.

Secondly, the current situation is due to ASIC hardware vendors that offer products they cannot deliver in a timely fashion or at all(BTCFPGA, BFL, and to a lesser extent Avalon). When founded the company was to have received it's first ASIC mining rig within days, this did not happen, and those delays were met with further delays, and then cancellation of the product. There is little any of us can do about this, and the mining companies that chose BFL gear exclusively have fared worse. I like everyone else can only operate on the information available at the time.

If you're not arguing that "asicminer blades are a great investment or that the avalon chips are a must buy", then what are you arguing? Those are the options available at this time and only one of them will result in a viable product in hand in the short term. While it's difficult to find a smart way to deploy capital at this time, I believe that will change in the near future and I'd like bASIC-MINING to be prepared to take full advantage of the opportunities that present. We've all seen how quickly opportunities can be missed, Avalon batch sales, ASICMiner auctions, etc.

I've made the current situation abundantly clear to investors and potential investors alike so that informed decisions could be made. I've tried to update the website daily to keep investors and potential investors informed of exactly what's transpiring. This hardware is expensive and many cannot afford the initial investment so we're pooling resources to help overcome this problem. This is stated on page one of this thread.

Many see bASIC-MINING and it's Avalon pre-orders as a way to diversify their portfolios in addition to ASICMiner, and not necessarily as an us or them scenario.

Cheers.