btt

[miTgiB]

If you're not arguing that "asicminer blades are a great investment or that the avalon chips are a must buy", then what are you arguing? Those are the options available at this time and only one of them will result in a viable product in hand in the short term. While it's difficult to find a smart way to deploy capital at this time, I believe that will change in the near future and I'd like bASIC-MINING to be prepared to take full advantage of the opportunities that present. We've all seen how quickly opportunities can be missed, Avalon batch sales, ASICMiner auctions, etc.

Clearly he is trying to shake weak hands to buy cheaper shares, but looks like treasury shares are still selling just fine

i.e. Don't feel the trolls

[iCEBREAKER]

What about an AMC pre-order?  They have lots of Avalon chips on the way.

Virtual Mining Corporation is now taking pre-orders for its
Fast-Hash-80 80 GH/s Bitcoin Mining Machine.

www.virtualminingcorp.com

Fast-Hash-80 80GH/s Bitcoin 2013 Special 20% Off Special Good Thru 5/21/2013

http://virtualminingcorp.com/shop/index.php?id_product=8&controller=product

BTC 68.00

Tons of expansion options too!

[carnitastaco]

If you're not arguing that "asicminer blades are a great investment or that the avalon chips are a must buy", then what are you arguing? Those are the options available at this time and only one of them will result in a viable product in hand in the short term.

Sorry I wasn't trying to argue for or against those as investments, was trying to keep the debate about the economics of current hardware availability out of the discussion by just accepting your opinion that they are not profitable.  Buying or not buying those those aren't the only options, another option is simply to hold less in reserves.  There's basically two components to this fund at this point- one part is the existing batch 2 and batch 3 orders, and one part is the large fund for unknown future purposes.  These two components are very very different in nature...one, the reserve fund, is an option to buy future hardware should there be a profitable opportunity, one is a share of some valuable machinery to be delivered that will decline in value over time.

Look, keeping the avalons separate for a second, if I (or someone known with a reputation on this board) wanted to raise funds for a mining company, and the prospectus said that we had no immediate use for those funds and just wanted to be ready at some unspecified future point if a profitable opportunity arose, nobody would invest, right?  Well, at this point, thats a lot of what this fund is.

Clearly he is trying to shake weak hands to buy cheaper shares, but looks like treasury shares are still selling just fine
i.e. Don't feel the trolls

lol, I have no interest in these shares for the reasons I stated.  I had some, and was frustrated by the fact that I was invested in cold storage, and couldn't do anything about it, and moved my money elsewhere (to AM) in time to double up.

This isn't a year or even 6 months ago, when you could buy mining equipment and get your money back in a few months.  Tons of people are interested in bitcoin mining and are willing to pay somewhat absurd prices for them.  I happen to believe there isn't going to be some magically obviously profitable hardware available any time soon or even ever again (at least for buyers), and think that this return of capital is eventually going to happen.

[malona82]

I'm having a little issue with what's going on atm in terms of the issuance of shares.  With 50 shares offered every .01 btc we are getting diluted and nothing is happening.  In 99.9% of business's that are as well funded as this one they do not issue shares they do buy backs to reward shareholders.  with 1k btc in the bank I really don't think there are any short or long term funding issues at all.  And since what seems to be going on is waiting for lower prices on products why is there a need for that much btc and even more as the price rises.  I think the issuance of shares needs to be tempered down until there is some sort of real expantion plans.  We are obviously waiting on the avalons but why keep diluting the expected dividends to current shareholders. 

[jmutch]

I'm having a little issue with what's going on atm in terms of the issuance of shares.  With 50 shares offered every .01 btc we are getting diluted and nothing is happening.  In 99.9% of business's that are as well funded as this one they do not issue shares they do buy backs to reward shareholders.  with 1k btc in the bank I really don't think there are any short or long term funding issues at all.  And since what seems to be going on is waiting for lower prices on products why is there a need for that much btc and even more as the price rises.  I think the issuance of shares needs to be tempered down until there is some sort of real expantion plans.  We are obviously waiting on the avalons but why keep diluting the expected dividends to current shareholders. 

i agree with this.... larger than .01 intervals would be more appropriate so that at least the shares are gaining significant value. doesn't reward the early invester enough.

[lunarboy]

How many shares are there?

It looks a little confusing. Stockholder agreement states "5000 shares of bASIC-MINING will be offered at approximately
.33BTC each and the funds raised in this IPO"

yet further up it states shares outstanding "Outstanding 3832 / 100000 Issued"

Does this mean from the IPO only 3832 shares have been issued and the rest are still being bought? Further whats with the 100000 in total? Does this mean that there is potentially another 95000 to be issued in the future.?

[miTgiB]

How many shares are there?

It looks a little confusing. Stockholder agreement states "5000 shares of bASIC-MINING will be offered at approximately
.33BTC each and the funds raised in this IPO"

yet further up it states shares outstanding "Outstanding 3832 / 100000 Issued"

Does this mean from the IPO only 3832 shares have been issued and the rest are still being bought? Further whats with the 100000 in total? Does this mean that there is potentially another 95000 to be issued in the future.?

I think I have it figured out, there are 5000 shares authorized in the IPO, 100,000 total authorized, but after the 5000 requires shareholder approval and will follow the same 4:1 split with creativex getting 1 share for every 4 sold.

[creativex]

How many shares are there?

It looks a little confusing. Stockholder agreement states "5000 shares of bASIC-MINING will be offered at approximately
.33BTC each and the funds raised in this IPO"

yet further up it states shares outstanding "Outstanding 3832 / 100000 Issued"

Does this mean from the IPO only 3832 shares have been issued and the rest are still being bought? Further whats with the 100000 in total? Does this mean that there is potentially another 95000 to be issued in the future.?

Hi lunarboy. The contract is correct, there will be no more than 5000 shares outstanding without a majority shareholder vote to increase this number. When I set up the company, prevailing wisdom was to set things up with more shares issued than ever needed so that requests for more shares to be issued would be unnecessary. Shares outstanding are updated daily on the company spreadsheet and in several places on btct.co. When this number reaches 5000, bASIC-MINING will have only it's reserves and growth fund for future expansion as stated in the original contract(OP). Many assets on btct.co are set up this way and yes it is somewhat confusing. I apologize for that.

To be crystal clear...shares in the asset issuer account do not have any rights. They cannot vote and they do not receive dividends.

Cheers.

I think I have it figured out, there are 5000 shares authorized in the IPO, 100,000 total authorized, but after the 5000 requires shareholder approval and will follow the same 4:1 split with creativex getting 1 share for every 4 sold.

Essentially correct, though I'd describe the remaining 95k shares in the asset issuer account as issued, but not authorized. At any rate, they'll not be going anywhere without shareholder approval and I've no plans to seek such approval at this time or in the foreseeable future.

[demzie]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=214191.0 

[creativex]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=214191.0 

lol

A domain name squatter! Excellent, we're growing!

[demzie]

Hahaha 

[creativex]

If you're not arguing that "asicminer blades are a great investment or that the avalon chips are a must buy", then what are you arguing? Those are the options available at this time and only one of them will result in a viable product in hand in the short term.

Sorry I wasn't trying to argue for or against those as investments, was trying to keep the debate about the economics of current hardware availability out of the discussion by just accepting your opinion that they are not profitable.  Buying or not buying those those aren't the only options, another option is simply to hold less in reserves.  There's basically two components to this fund at this point- one part is the existing batch 2 and batch 3 orders, and one part is the large fund for unknown future purposes.  These two components are very very different in nature...one, the reserve fund, is an option to buy future hardware should there be a profitable opportunity, one is a share of some valuable machinery to be delivered that will decline in value over time.

Look, keeping the avalons separate for a second, if I (or someone known with a reputation on this board) wanted to raise funds for a mining company, and the prospectus said that we had no immediate use for those funds and just wanted to be ready at some unspecified future point if a profitable opportunity arose, nobody would invest, right?  Well, at this point, thats a lot of what this fund is.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't see a lot of viable alternatives. The "economics of current hardware availability" is the overriding theme with all mining assets at this time and cannot realistically be separated from the discussion. That said, raising the price of shares was done in part to slow the sale of shares and therefore the dilution of assets. This was one of my stated purposes several pages back...and it worked. The recent spike in sales is plainly due to the news that Avalon batch 2 is shipping and yes this is adding to company reserves and future shareholder value.

Keeping the Avalons separate ignores the basic premise of the entire company, but I'll play along. The contract states that we'll bulk purchase ASIC mining hardware. When it was written the company had one ASIC mining product on order and I'd lain the groundwork for large future(bulk) purchases from the very same company, but that company is now extinct and we moved by shareholder vote to another vendor. Our plans changed out of necessity...not design. I very much doubt that shareholder value would've been better protected by locking in a large order with BFL following the collapse of BTCFPGA and that was the only alternative at that time. Again, decisions had to be made with the information available at that time, not the information that's available now. The risk that we'd be unable to add ASIC mining gear in the near term due to lack of availability is precisely why I proposed a modest expansion of the company's GPU hardware several months ago, also accomplished by shareholder vote.

Cheers.

[creativex]

I'm having a little issue with what's going on atm in terms of the issuance of shares.  With 50 shares offered every .01 btc we are getting diluted and nothing is happening.  In 99.9% of business's that are as well funded as this one they do not issue shares they do buy backs to reward shareholders.  with 1k btc in the bank I really don't think there are any short or long term funding issues at all.  And since what seems to be going on is waiting for lower prices on products why is there a need for that much btc and even more as the price rises.  I think the issuance of shares needs to be tempered down until there is some sort of real expantion plans.  We are obviously waiting on the avalons but why keep diluting the expected dividends to current shareholders.

Hi malona82. The rising share price is a mechanism by which a shareholder may realize value. As there is sufficient liquidity in the market even at this low a number of outstanding shares(3832), a shareholder need only to sell shares to realize this value. The current bid is .6 which is an 81.8% increase over the initial share price of .33 on 12/17/2012. In addition 35.25368361BTC in dividends have been paid out during this time.

Cheers.

[creativex]

What about an AMC pre-order?  They have lots of Avalon chips on the way.

Virtual Mining Corporation is now taking pre-orders for its
Fast-Hash-80 80 GH/s Bitcoin Mining Machine.

www.virtualminingcorp.com

Fast-Hash-80 80GH/s Bitcoin 2013 Special 20% Off Special Good Thru 5/21/2013

http://virtualminingcorp.com/shop/index.php?id_product=8&controller=product

BTC 68.00

Tons of expansion options too!

Hey iCEBREAKER. Happen to know if they have a confirmation date on receipt of those chips? Does anyone? This is not btw a rhetorical question. I'd expect Avalon to ship batch 3 prior to shipping their chips or there will likely be some unhappy customers.

I noticed from the pics on VMC's site that they have a standard PC IO on that unit, I wonder how there's room to house chips and cooling in there with a PC board(even mATX) as well. I wonder if there are pics of the unit open available?

Cheers.

[jmutch]

buy a couple of blades to get the ball rolling??

[malona82]

buy a couple of blades to get the ball rolling??

I agree

[Yogi2013]

buy a couple of blades to get the ball rolling??

I don't think that blades are the best investment for basic mining. If the price were to drop considerably it would be different. 50btc per unit will be hard to recoup with diminishing returns. The only decent value available right now is Avalon chips. I honestly think having a decent amount of btc on hand will reap great rewards once all the Avalon DIY projects get up and running. Multiple DIY projects should work towards bringing ASIC prices back down to reality.

[matt4054]

There are lots of new ASIC hardware offers popping up on this forum (see the Mining > Hardware threads), mostly based on AVALON chips + Klondike or custom PCB design. We should keep a close eye on it.

As for the Blade, I think it wouldn't be so bad to buy just one, given that we are high on reserves and starving for investment. I took the risk myself, which implies of course that I believe chances of >100% ROI are >50% ;-)

[creativex]

buy a couple of blades to get the ball rolling??

Hi jmutch. I'm as frustrated with these delays as anyone. Avalon batch 3 was to begin shipping on May 5 and instead batch 2 has only recently begun shipping. That said, I feel that deploying our funds inefficiently now will cost us significantly down the road. 100BTC spent on just 20Gh/s of mining gear would give us 22.1Gh/s or 5.71Mh/s/share. This would result in a daily dividend of approximately .91BTC or 0.00023529BTC/share at current difficulty and this is without re-instating the company's growth fund. We'd also need to invest in a power supply and cooling for the blades.

The equivalent in Avalon gear is paying 335BTC for an already received batch 1 or batch 2 unit, with the added advantage of having less to manage, power supply and cooling already included, as well as stratum support. If we could purchase a unit already in the US we could also avoid possible delays with customs, as batch 1 & 2 Avalons did not include the option to ship without PSU.

I'll start a motion to get a sense of how other shareholders feel about this...better still I will start two motions comparing the two options.

Cheers.

I don't think that blades are the best investment for basic mining. If the price were to drop considerably it would be different. 50btc per unit will be hard to recoup with diminishing returns. The only decent value available right now is Avalon chips. I honestly think having a decent amount of btc on hand will reap great rewards once all the Avalon DIY projects get up and running. Multiple DIY projects should work towards bringing ASIC prices back down to reality.

This mirrors my feelings on the subject. While I doubt Avalon chips will be available in bulk as soon as many hope, when they are available a myriad of competitive options will surface, which will drive the price of efficient hardware lower.
  

[matt4054]

I'll start a motion to get a sense of how other shareholders feel about this...better still I will start two motions comparing the two options.

Excellent news, I praise your initiative for a motion on these decisions. And thank you for taking the time to discuss it with your shareholders here. It will be hard to get "competitive" ASICs before September. That is when I expect the "Big Rise" in difficulty that will probably make me switch all of my GPUs to scrypt mining, if any value left to Litecoin & co by then, or switch them off altogether and resell the hardware. We'll see...