Pay On Target: New High variance payout System Offered by Ozcoin

[kano]

Meanwhile ...
Rather than typing numbers into my desktop calculator over and over ... I wrote this:
http://tradebtc.net/potcalc.php

The defaults (which you can change before you press 'Calculate' are a=0.8 Cap=1.5 Fee=3%)
I'll change the defaults to whatever Graet sets them to ... when I notice they've changed

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[Meni Rosenfeld]

Meanwhile ...
Rather than typing numbers into my desktop calculator over and over ... I wrote this:
http://tradebtc.net/potcalc.php

The defaults (which you can change before you press 'Calculate' are a=0.8 Cap=1.5 Fee=3%)
I'll change the defaults to whatever Graet sets them to ... when I notice they've changed

I don't think you used the constant factor that corrects for share capping.

[kano]

Meanwhile ...
Rather than typing numbers into my desktop calculator over and over ... I wrote this:
http://tradebtc.net/potcalc.php

The defaults (which you can change before you press 'Calculate' are a=0.8 Cap=1.5 Fee=3%)
I'll change the defaults to whatever Graet sets them to ... when I notice they've changed

I don't think you used the constant factor that corrects for share capping.

Yeah I was applying it to share count
I've changed it to cap the share value ... hopefully that's correct.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

Meanwhile ...
Rather than typing numbers into my desktop calculator over and over ... I wrote this:
http://tradebtc.net/potcalc.php

The defaults (which you can change before you press 'Calculate' are a=0.8 Cap=1.5 Fee=3%)
I'll change the defaults to whatever Graet sets them to ... when I notice they've changed

I don't think you used the constant factor that corrects for share capping.

Yeah I was applying it to share count
I've changed it to cap the share value ... hopefully that's correct.

I'm not sure we're on the same page, the formula for payout is

[(1-a)/(1-a*wd^(1-a)*X^(a-1))]*(wd*B/D)*(min(X,sd)/wd)^a

So letting a = 0.8, wd = 1, sd = 10, D = 3370181.7992778, X = 1.5D, B = 24.25 you should get
9.42407*10^-6
Rather than 9.08*10^-6 as in the site.

[organofcorti]

Meanwhile ...
Rather than typing numbers into my desktop calculator over and over ... I wrote this:
http://tradebtc.net/potcalc.php

The defaults (which you can change before you press 'Calculate' are a=0.8 Cap=1.5 Fee=3%)
I'll change the defaults to whatever Graet sets them to ... when I notice they've changed

I don't think you used the constant factor that corrects for share capping.

Yeah I was applying it to share count
I've changed it to cap the share value ... hopefully that's correct.

I'm not sure we're on the same page, the formula for payout is

[(1-a)/(1-a*wd^(1-a)*X^(a-1))]*(wd*B/D)*(min(X,sd)/wd)^a

So letting a = 0.8, wd = 1, sd = 10, D = 3370181.7992778, X = 1.5D you should get
9.42407*10^-6
Rather than 9.08*10^-6 as in the site.

He's including the 3% fee, which makes it closer. When are you applying the fee, kano?

[Meni Rosenfeld]

Meanwhile ...
Rather than typing numbers into my desktop calculator over and over ... I wrote this:
http://tradebtc.net/potcalc.php

The defaults (which you can change before you press 'Calculate' are a=0.8 Cap=1.5 Fee=3%)
I'll change the defaults to whatever Graet sets them to ... when I notice they've changed

I don't think you used the constant factor that corrects for share capping.

Yeah I was applying it to share count
I've changed it to cap the share value ... hopefully that's correct.

I'm not sure we're on the same page, the formula for payout is

[(1-a)/(1-a*wd^(1-a)*X^(a-1))]*(wd*B/D)*(min(X,sd)/wd)^a

So letting a = 0.8, wd = 1, sd = 10, D = 3370181.7992778, X = 1.5D you should get
9.42407*10^-6
Rather than 9.08*10^-6 as in the site.

He's including the 3% fee, which makes it closer. When are you applying the fee, kano?

Sorry, I included the fee too, ETA.
The calculator simply uses the (1-a) factor rather than the [(1-a)/(1-a*wd^(1-a)*X^(a-1))] factor.

[kano]

heh well I guess I need to check what OzCoin is using at the moment - coz that's what matters
(I'm not sure they've updated it yet to whatever the next version of the calculation is)
I put the equations I'm using at the moment at the bottom of the web page
(and the cap I'm using is simply a cap on 'Your Share Difficulty')

Edit: i.e. I'm using the OP post equation

[crazyates]

Oh, I'm only using a lone BFL Single, but my varr diff is manually set to 2. Would that affect my earnings much? From what I can tell, a manually set work_difficulty makes for higher-paying high-diff shares, but fewer low-paying low-diff shares. Is this correct?

Sort of. You get paid the same as if the shares you submitted were only half the difficulty the are(since vardiff = work_difficulty =2), but multiplied by 2.

Think of it like this:

Reward per share = function(share_difficulty/work_difficulty) *  work_difficulty

So playing around with Kano's calculator (Thanks, btw! Just what I was looking for), it seems that manually setting work_difficulty to a higher value does increase the payout per share by a bit, at almost any share_difficulty. How is this offset? Just the fact that fewer shares are submitted?

I understand your first formula (the on in the OP) pretty well, the second I'm having a harder time wading thru. At this point, I'm just trying to figure out practical applications.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

Oh, I'm only using a lone BFL Single, but my varr diff is manually set to 2. Would that affect my earnings much? From what I can tell, a manually set work_difficulty makes for higher-paying high-diff shares, but fewer low-paying low-diff shares. Is this correct?

Sort of. You get paid the same as if the shares you submitted were only half the difficulty the are(since vardiff = work_difficulty =2), but multiplied by 2.

Think of it like this:

Reward per share = function(share_difficulty/work_difficulty) *  work_difficulty

So playing around with Kano's calculator (Thanks, btw! Just what I was looking for), it seems that manually setting work_difficulty to a higher value does increase the payout per share by a bit, at almost any share_difficulty. How is this offset? Just the fact that fewer shares are submitted?

Yes. By upping the work_difficulty, shares which are less than the new value will not be paid at all. This offsets the higher payment for the shares that are paid.

I understand your first formula (the on in the OP) pretty well, the second I'm having a harder time wading thru. At this point, I'm just trying to figure out practical applications.

The second formula is what allows you to maintain the same average fee while capping the payout. It's more complicated, and that's part of the reason I'm not so enthusiastic about capping.

heh well I guess I need to check what OzCoin is using at the moment - coz that's what matters
(I'm not sure they've updated it yet to whatever the next version of the calculation is)
I put the equations I'm using at the moment at the bottom of the web page
(and the cap I'm using is simply a cap on 'Your Share Difficulty')

Edit: i.e. I'm using the OP post equation

Well if Graet is capping the shares but hasn't updated the formula, he's effectively taking 4% extra fee on top of the advertised fee. I hope this will be fixed soon.

[GenTarkin]

Well as it stands now, POT is horribly broken in my case. Im seeing negatives in the PPS difference column on almost every block(on the site stats)
My overall is like 83% pps currently. So, the formula (hopefully new generations of it) will help fix this. Seems like my luck should be avg'n out to at least 100% ozcoin pps overall =P not a deficit of 17% =(

[JWU42]

As expected unless you hit some 1M+ shares...

[GenTarkin]

As expected unless you hit some 1M+ shares...

LOL, 17% less than PPS? .. I dont think thats, "expected" .. "expected" would be hovering around 100% pps.. and deviate from that up n down .. if I can maintain a 117% pps for just as long a period, then I will retract my statement that the formula is broken...till that time, its broke =P

[Meni Rosenfeld]

As expected unless you hit some 1M+ shares...

LOL, 17% less than PPS? .. I dont think thats, "expected" .. "expected" would be hovering around 100% pps.. and deviate from that up n down .. if I can maintain a 117% pps for just as long a period, then I will retract my statement that the formula is broken...till that time, its broke =P

The Pay-on-Target payout distribution is highly asymmetric. You don't get roughly equal numbers of above-average and below-average shares; rather, you get (with a = 0.8 ) 87% of the shares to be lower than average, then once in a while you hit the jackpot. Maybe you will soon get that big win that will bring you back to the black, maybe not.

This of course does not rule out the possibility of an issue with the implementation.

[Mysil2]

As expected unless you hit some 1M+ shares...

LOL, 17% less than PPS? .. I dont think thats, "expected" .. "expected" would be hovering around 100% pps.. and deviate from that up n down .. if I can maintain a 117% pps for just as long a period, then I will retract my statement that the formula is broken...till that time, its broke =P

I can confirm the opposite. Running POT nearly 2 days with 4 Ghash/s now and I am at 18% above PPS rate. This is because I got an 3.18M share at diff 7.

Great idea with this new payout method, definitely bringing some fun into mining again - And I hope my luck won't faint...

[GenTarkin]

I hear what you guys are saying... but to me, if I take the "avg share diff 1" column value and plug that into my spreadsheet w/ a wdiff of 1 and submitted shares value of "avg share diff 1"(it shows me the pot PPS based on my "avg share diff 1" then multiply  by the value shown in "valid vardiff shares" column - that should be "ON AVERAGE" close to the cumulative paid amount per block row. Which, for nearly all my rows its about 20% short.

Meaning, the spreadsheet says, my calculated avg share diff 1 need to be a value of 8 to = ozco pps - fees.
But according to stats page, its looking like avg share diff 1 needs to be at least around 10+ to = ozco pps - fees....

[crazyates]

As expected unless you hit some 1M+ shares...

LOL, 17% less than PPS? .. I dont think thats, "expected" .. "expected" would be hovering around 100% pps.. and deviate from that up n down .. if I can maintain a 117% pps for just as long a period, then I will retract my statement that the formula is broken...till that time, its broke =P

I can confirm the opposite. Running POT nearly 2 days with 4 Ghash/s now and I am at 18% above PPS rate. This is because I got an 3.18M share at diff 7.

Great idea with this new payout method, definitely bringing some fun into mining again - And I hope my luck won't faint...

Right now I'm at 12% under PPS, but a single share of 1million would bring me up to 45% over PPS. Damn you PoT for stringing me along!

[Graet]

A few winners starting to appear
Site stats are getting better and thanks to kano for the calculator - I can see it getting some lots of use

We will be changing to the latest formula after Blaksmith finishes work today

Hopefully soon we can get something works for both sides

Please be aware that the nature of gambling is you can win or lose - this payout method is putting the luck back onto the miner - the shares you submit are what you are paid on, if your luck is bad you will lose, if good you will win.


Thanks for the feedback and help, apologies for the delays (at least you didn't have to pre-order - joke) it is taking a bit longer than expected to get sorted, I feel we are getting closer, thanks to miners that have persevered during the trial

Best wishes
Graet

[vapourminer]

Im 2.4% under. seems ok to me. most shares are under but the over ones do a pretty good job of evening it out so far.. and it IS a gamble of sorts.

Ill stick it out some more. makes coming home to see the stats fun again

[Graet]

had my whip out, Blaksmith has worked up a sweat pounding code on his anvil
new formula running

round((1 - $a) / (1 - $a * pow($wd, (1 - $a)) * pow($X, ($a - 1))), 10) * ($wd * $B / $D) * pow(($sd / $wd), $a)

a = 0.8
X = bitcoin_difficulty * 1.5
B =  Currently set to 24.25 (take out 3% fee)
D = bitcoin_difficulty
wd = work from pool
sd = work returned to pool from miner

Lets see how this goes
Good luck to anyone playing
Graet


One lucky blocksolver (the only POT block so far) 2012-12-21 01:26:19 share diff 19 work diff  5218578 paid 0.61359400 BTC
congrats

[-ck]

One lucky blocksolver (the only POT block so far) 2012-12-21 01:26:19 share diff 19 work diff  5218578 paid 0.61359400 BTC
congrats

W00t that one share was worth more than 86,000 PPS shares