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Question: Do you support the sale of hacked/compromised/unauthorized transfer of accounts
Yes, I support these sales - 17 (18.3%)
No, I object to these sales. - 76 (81.7%)
Total Voters: 93

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Author Topic: POLL: Sales of hacked, compromised, and/or unauthorized transfers of accounts.  (Read 7099 times)
myrkul
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January 03, 2013, 05:15:18 AM
 #61

Good work, Shep.

Selling (or buying) account information is perfectly legal and moral. It's the hacking that's the problem, and I don't know if we've proven torac a hacker, but he's certainly selling 'hot' info, and seems to know it. Time for a scammer tag, at minimum, I think.

buying/selling account information is only legal if ToS or Admin of the respective websites permit it.   There is precedent though in certain areas for the transfer of property contained within an account (first-sale doctrine should apply to transfer games from one account holder to another account holder), but the account itself is usually owned by the business, website owner, or individual that administers the userdb.

Check out my post earlier in this thread for some discussion about this topic.

http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=132038.msg1426644#msg1426644

Good point. I amend my previous statement to say "usually legal and perfectly moral." I believe the breach of TOS only applies to the first seller (ie the original account holder), as well. Hacked accounts are still verboten, of course.

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January 03, 2013, 10:38:23 AM
 #62

Good work, Shep.

Selling (or buying) account information is perfectly legal and moral. It's the hacking that's the problem, and I don't know if we've proven torac a hacker, but he's certainly selling 'hot' info, and seems to know it. Time for a scammer tag, at minimum, I think.
I am not a scammer, you idiot, I always refund anyone can ask for refund for any reason whatsoever if they are not happy with what they buy, I am not a hacker, my accounts are safe and logit, you ban me in mistake, you made huge mistake, you ruin your own forum, If I get banned so easy anyone can get banned, this forum is a mess, no leadership, no dictators, no power, this forum is just another forum on the internet, it is a useless one with no long-term.
I will create my own bitcoin forum and I will be true admin there. ANyone will be welcome, fuck bitcointalk again, theymos you are not a leader, you help me with nothing, you only fucked me, theymos you are NOBODY and mean nothing to me, I tried to help you build the forum better and more awesome with more donations, but you banned me in the first 1 month, suicide bomber what you are tha'ts what you are theymos, a suicider.

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January 03, 2013, 10:51:01 AM
 #63



1 Timothy 4:12 ESV / 149 helpful votes

Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.

1 Timothy 3:1-4 ESV / 149 helpful votes

The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,

Proverbs 11:14 ESV / 76 helpful votes

Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.

2 Chronicles 15:7 ESV / 61 helpful votes

But you, take courage! Do not let your hands be weak, for your work shall be rewarded.”

Acts 20:28 ESV / 58 helpful votes

Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

2 Timothy 2:15 ESV / 55 helpful votes

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Isaiah 30:21 ESV / 40 helpful votes

And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the way, walk in it,” when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left.

Mark 10:44 ESV / 37 helpful votes

And whoever would be first among you must be slave of all.

Numbers 27:17 ESV / 32 helpful votes

Who shall go out before them and come in before them, who shall lead them out and bring them in, that the congregation of the Lord may not be as sheep that have no shepherd.”

Mark 10:45 ESV / 30 helpful votes

For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Matthew 20:25-28 ESV / 26 helpful votes

But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Isaiah 42:16 ESV / 22 helpful votes

And I will lead the blind in a way that they do not know, in paths that they have not known I will guide them. I will turn the darkness before them into light, the rough places into level ground. These are the things I do, and I do not forsake them.

Ephesians 4:11-16 ESV / 19 helpful votes

And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, ...

Proverbs 20:28 ESV / 19 helpful votes

Steadfast love and faithfulness preserve the king, and by steadfast love his throne is upheld.

Romans 12:4 ESV / 18 helpful votes

For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,

Luke 14:28 ESV / 16 helpful votes

For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?

John 10:11 ESV / 15 helpful votes

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 16:33 ESV / 14 helpful votes

I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

1 Timothy 6:1-2 ESV / 13 helpful votes

Let all who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these things.

Mark 10:44-45 ESV / 13 helpful votes

And whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

1 Peter 5:2-3 ESV / 10 helpful votes

Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.

Philippians 2:3-5 ESV / 9 helpful votes

Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

Matthew 12:30 ESV / 9 helpful votes

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Titus 1:5-9 ESV / 6 helpful votes

This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

Hebrews 13:17 ESV / 5 helpful votes

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Romans 2:13 ESV / 5 helpful votes

For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Ephesians 1:18 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,

John 15:1-27 ESV / 4 helpful votes

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. ...

Hebrews 13:1 ESV / 3 helpful votes

Let brotherly love continue.

Romans 2:17-24 ESV / 3 helpful votes

But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? ...

Matthew 18:15 ESV / 3 helpful votes

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.

Matthew 22:1-46 ESV / 2 helpful votes

And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.’ But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, ...

Genesis 37:7 ESV / 2 helpful votes

Behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and behold, my sheaf arose and stood upright. And behold, your sheaves gathered around it and bowed down to my sheaf.”

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January 03, 2013, 10:53:45 AM
 #64

Wow, so much drama.

I'm almost compelled to donate to bitcointalk over torac's postings, but it seems like the funds are not used for anything of value at the moment.
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January 03, 2013, 11:35:30 AM
 #65

I haven't seen any offer you are describing here on bitcointalk. Can you post link to some examples?

There are good reasons to think that torac is selling hacked accounts.

Selling hacked accounts is not banned by any current forum policy. Selling the accounts is not illegal as far as I know (maybe the act of hacking the accounts is illegal). I'm always reluctant to go against the forum's policy of free speech, and in this case I'm not even sure that the trades are immoral.

Theymos, I understand you're for free speech. But in this matter, you're stretching it..

If anyone gets access to an account they don't own, that's something that they should not do, and then selling this information to others, that is something that everybody should clearly see is unethical and wrong.

If you had a cabin in the woods that you hadn't used for a long time, and then somebody found the key to it and sold it to anyone, I don't think you'd be thrilled about it.

Free speech is good and all, but this is not about free speech, it is more about theft.

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January 03, 2013, 11:37:43 AM
 #66

I haven't seen any offer you are describing here on bitcointalk. Can you post link to some examples?

There are good reasons to think that torac is selling hacked accounts.

Selling hacked accounts is not banned by any current forum policy. Selling the accounts is not illegal as far as I know (maybe the act of hacking the accounts is illegal). I'm always reluctant to go against the forum's policy of free speech, and in this case I'm not even sure that the trades are immoral. On one hand:

- The victims probably never notice.
- If the victims do notice, they can probably get their accounts back without too much hassle.
- There is no violence or deception involved.
- torac is only selling information. Some part of me thinks that selling information can never be wrong.

On the other hand, there are victims...

Also, I can never know with absolute certainty whether someone is selling hacked accounts or just reselling accounts that have been given to them willingly. (Reselling willingly-given accounts is OK. The forum clearly has no obligation to enforce the terms of service for other sites. Otherwise common trades such as Steam trades or PayPal transfers would be disallowed.) This makes a ban on trading hacked accounts potentially messy to enforce. Should I ban trades that are only probably trades of hacked accounts?

torac is donating a portion of proceeds from each sale back to the site, which creates a conflict of interest in acting against torac

The forum is non-profit. I don't get anything whether he donates or not.

What boggles my mind is you would think after the cosbycoin hack of bitcointalk.org in 2011 that Theymos would not be receptive to this type of activity taking place on his own forum.  I don't think Theymos would want someone selling his login credentials on another forum.

I wouldn't like it, but I'm not sure that selling the credentials would be immoral.

Some day, a company with enough resources may have law enforcement involved, and we know how that goes.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/04/data-centers-ra/
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January 03, 2013, 11:40:38 AM
 #67

Quote
Theymos, I understand you're for free speech. But in this matter, you're stretching it..

If anyone gets access to an account they don't own, that's something that they should not do, and then selling this information to others

Are you against WikiLeaks as well?
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January 03, 2013, 11:53:15 AM
 #68

Quote
Theymos, I understand you're for free speech. But in this matter, you're stretching it..

If anyone gets access to an account they don't own, that's something that they should not do, and then selling this information to others

Are you against WikiLeaks as well?


Another troll taking it out of context and derailing from the orginal discussion.
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January 03, 2013, 01:21:49 PM
 #69

Anyways. This guy is selling the exact same stuff as Mr. Choleric Hacker.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134194.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134044.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134194.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134223.0

In the interest of equality he should be shut down too.

EDIT:

Next one: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134287.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134244.0

Bearing the "torac seal of approval"
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January 03, 2013, 04:51:22 PM
 #70

Quote
Theymos, I understand you're for free speech. But in this matter, you're stretching it..

If anyone gets access to an account they don't own, that's something that they should not do, and then selling this information to others

Are you against WikiLeaks as well?

red herring sockpuppet detected

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January 03, 2013, 06:35:55 PM
 #71

I haven't seen any offer you are describing here on bitcointalk. Can you post link to some examples?

There are good reasons to think that torac is selling hacked accounts.

Selling hacked accounts is not banned by any current forum policy. Selling the accounts is not illegal as far as I know (maybe the act of hacking the accounts is illegal). I'm always reluctant to go against the forum's policy of free speech, and in this case I'm not even sure that the trades are immoral. On one hand:

- The victims probably never notice.
- If the victims do notice, they can probably get their accounts back without too much hassle.
- There is no violence or deception involved.
- torac is only selling information. Some part of me thinks that selling information can never be wrong.

On the other hand, there are victims...

Also, I can never know with absolute certainty whether someone is selling hacked accounts or just reselling accounts that have been given to them willingly. (Reselling willingly-given accounts is OK. The forum clearly has no obligation to enforce the terms of service for other sites. Otherwise common trades such as Steam trades or PayPal transfers would be disallowed.) This makes a ban on trading hacked accounts potentially messy to enforce. Should I ban trades that are only probably trades of hacked accounts?

torac is donating a portion of proceeds from each sale back to the site, which creates a conflict of interest in acting against torac

The forum is non-profit. I don't get anything whether he donates or not.

What boggles my mind is you would think after the cosbycoin hack of bitcointalk.org in 2011 that Theymos would not be receptive to this type of activity taking place on his own forum.  I don't think Theymos would want someone selling his login credentials on another forum.

I wouldn't like it, but I'm not sure that selling the credentials would be immoral.

Theymos, is there really a question and do we need a "forum policy" to know right from wrong?  Stealing is stealing.  Why would you want this forum or Bitcoin associated with that?

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January 03, 2013, 06:40:48 PM
 #72

Theymos, is there really a question and do we need a "forum policy" to know right from wrong?  Stealing is stealing.  Why would you want this forum or Bitcoin associated with that?

++1

Bitcoin already has too many nefarious connections.

I don't care what you use your bitcoins for and it is non of my business but I for one would strongly prefer the forum policy only allow discussion of issues  that do not promote activites that generally and broadly accepted to be illegal or illicit.

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January 03, 2013, 06:51:59 PM
 #73

Theymos, is there really a question and do we need a "forum policy" to know right from wrong?  Stealing is stealing.  Why would you want this forum or Bitcoin associated with that?

++1

Bitcoin already has too many nefarious connections.

I don't care what you use your bitcoins for and it is non of my business but I for one would strongly prefer the forum policy only allow discussion of issues  that do not promote activites that generally and broadly accepted to be illegal or illicit.
+1 common sense
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January 03, 2013, 06:54:41 PM
 #74

I consider said activities dispicable and do wish that we as a community can persuade the sellers to conduct there buisness elsewhere.

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January 03, 2013, 07:35:18 PM
 #75

Note that all threads pertaining to the selling of such accounts and invites have been locked due to the dubious legality of such actions. Please report if you find any similar threads.
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January 03, 2013, 07:43:13 PM
 #76

Note that all threads pertaining to the selling of such accounts and invites have been locked due to the dubious legality of such actions. Please report if you find any similar threads.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86299.0
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January 03, 2013, 08:12:50 PM
 #77

No, because the purchaser of the account can have it taken away with zero recourse. Might as well donate their bitcoins to a black hole.

Saying that you don't trust someone because of their behavior is completely valid.
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January 04, 2013, 05:53:51 AM
 #78

What state is bitcointalk.org incorporated under to get non-profit status?

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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January 04, 2013, 06:42:19 AM
 #79

What state is bitcointalk.org incorporated under to get non-profit status?

The forum isn't registered with any government. You seem to assume that no organization can operate on a non-profit basis without permission from a government, which is a strange assumption to make.

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January 04, 2013, 07:06:08 AM
 #80


supernatural is selling his own invites/accounts as far as I can tell. We're not going to enforce the terms of service of other sites. Terms of service are not recognized as legally binding in all countries, and it would be too difficult to understand and enforce all such terms.

Theymos does this forum's policy of "free speech" allow publicly posting personally identifiable information of suspected hackers selling hacked/compromised accounts?

Yes.

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