Bitcoin Foundation: Where on Earth Did all the Money Go?

[Gleb Gamow]

Though 99% here won't understand why, a gift for Bruce: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1FVwJ6NX1g&feature=youtu.be&t=1312 

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[BruceFenton]

So let me get you straight: you are rebooting The Bitcoin Foundation because you can't get along with CoinCenter, another bitcoin foundation?
And isn't the Bitcoin Association already you?
How is it that you fail to see that The Bitcoin Foundation has nothing to do with representing Bitcoin as a whole, when your explicit purpose is to counter the other Bitcoin foundations?

Nope, foundation existed before Coincenter and others, we get along fine, Jerry is a smart and well respected guy, we just have very different views on regulation.

Bitcoin Association is run by Greg Simon now.

The explicit purpose is not at all to "counter other foundations" - the purpose is in the Mission Statement -- have you had a chance to read it?

I'd suggest people read it.  If they agree then great, if not then they can support an organization the do agree with or none at all.

[BruceFenton]

Judge actual people versus a piece of paper - that's all I ask

Bruce, you're probably a great guy, but I don't know you. The only thing I have to go by is the foundation you're fronting. A foundation which has brought us, both before & during the (6 months?) with you at the helm, drama & embarrassment.
Half of the board members left, the hardy ones stayed. So nothing like a fresh slate.

Things gonna be different this time tho, because ...just trust me bro.

[...] I haven't done new fundraising for a few reasons:
- I wanted a compelling case that I felt was worth putting my own money into.

Some are still less than compelled. Surprisingly.

- I wanted to get costs lowered and old obligations cleaned up

Synopsis? Like not paying core devs any more? Six months well spent. what else? Something about obligations? Be specific.

- we had some board turmoil and unclear mission

Boy howdy!

- I was also in a major car accident and pressed for time with other obligations

Sorry 'bout that. Perhaps a second-in-command might have helped? Hierarchical structures, how do they even work...

I only consider working towards transparency a waste of time when it nets no transparency, as is the case here. In other words, I consider thumb-twiddling and calling it "transparency" a waste of time.
Where's the product?

Not sure what you mean by transparency that I haven't done.  Since I volunteered I've had all the tax returns released, monthly financials on all spending and all board minutes released.   I've also tried hard to be available to answer any questions, provide anything people ask for that is possible in the time I have.

What else would you like to see?

After spending "many hours of reviewing the books," there's no product. Claiming to work towards financial transparency without publishing an independent audit report is meaningless.

The red boldface above. Emboldened so it's a little harder, though not entirely impossible, to miss.

This is talking about two different things.  I was responding to the question about unknown debts someone speculated that the foundation has.  Just think about this for a second:  why would an organization need an audit to prove that it doesn't have debts that no one is asking about and no one is claiming are owed to them?

It needs an independent audit, period.
Without an independent audit & nothing but TBF's sterling rep, I don't trust it. Nothing "Trust me and not some piece of paper" about it. We're talking about a long, sordid history, not some sticky note.

[...] Some organization types are approved quickly.  Bitcoin Foundation is approved to do lobbying and is a trade group - so that, as well as having the word "Bitcoin" in the name took a while for them to get approved.  Churches and others can take many years and they typically file as the applied organization type.[/b]

Isn't http://bitcoinassociation.org/about-us/ yours? It claims to be a nonprofit. And please, let's not follow up on 501c6 approval thing. We both know it's just grasping at straws.

This thread is getting three levels deep so harder to follow & take time with back & forth.

1) organizational structure and people are two different things - yes, I'm not asking people to trust me -- I'm asking them to judge me on the actions I've actually taken in my life --- crazy concept I know - but it's based on a spotless record for over 20 years in business and disclosing every action that I take as a volunteer - I've been open and honest in all things and have not given anyone a reason to distrust me -- if people don't trust me because they didn't trust the people I volunteered to clean up after then there isn't anything I can do about that other than continue to act ethically and transparently -- I'm saying here is the plan, here is exactly what spending I've approved and would approve in the future -- if the assumption is that I'm committing fraud on that and risking my reputation and career (for no gain) then there isn't much I can do on that -- this entire discussion about an audit suddenly being some "must have" is brand new - there was no or virtually no discussion of an audit until a week or so ago.
ALSO - the audit this thread has been discussing is mostly focused on past actions - how does that relate to saying to "trust me" now?  What would the audit possibly show that has any bearing on me today?   If it shows that previous admin was the greatest people on earth or were crooks -- it still doesn't affect today one bit.  I've always supported open records for anything I've been involved with

2) sure, second in command would have helped, we do have a COO - the car accident was 3 weeks after I volunteered - I didn't have such a volunteer then, if you know someone who'd fit, let us know -- no need to be sarastic about it

3) you didn't answer my question about why foundation would need an audit to prove that we don't owe money when no one has asked or accused the foundation of owing them money - you just answer "need an audit, period" -- okay....to what end exactly?   You still haven't clearly stated what you want the audit to show and cover -- what type of audit do you want?  Tax audit? GAAP?  

4) when I said to focus on people not pieces of paper--- the paper I was referring to wasn't financial records it's the corporate structure / documents -- saying you "don't trust the foundation" is not as logical as talking about a person or people -- there is no person called "Bitcoin Foundation" an organization is incapable of lying, telling the truth or anything else -- it's just a document -- PEOPLE are who actually make decisions and can be trusted or not -- I'm only asking for others to base opinions on the actual actions of the people they judge --  

5) I co-founded Bitcoin Association, stepped down when I volunteered at Bitcoin Foundation  Greg Simon is the president of it now --- not sure what you are getting at with the 501c6 comment -- I've explained how they filed a couple of times -- for Bitcoin Association we are now talking about an entirely different organization -- Bitcoin Association has no tax status in the US, did not file or apply for tax status and did not solicit or accept donations

[siameze]

[...]
1) organizational structure and people are two different things - yes, I'm not asking people to trust me -- I'm asking them to judge me on the actions I've actually taken in my life --- crazy concept I know - but it's based on a spotless record for over 20 years in business and disclosing every action that I take as a volunteer - I've been open and honest in all things and have not given anyone a reason to distrust me -- if people don't trust me because they didn't trust the people I volunteered to clean up after then there isn't anything I can do about that other than continue to act ethically and transparently -- I'm saying here is the plan, here is exactly what spending I've approved and would approve in the future -- if the assumption is that I'm committing fraud on that and risking my reputation and career (for no gain) then there isn't much I can do on that -- this entire discussion about an audit suddenly being some "must have" is brand new - there was no or virtually no discussion of an audit until a week or so ago.
ALSO - the audit this thread has been discussing is mostly focused on past actions - how does that relate to saying to "trust me" now?  What would the audit possibly show that has any bearing on me today?   If it shows that previous admin was the greatest people on earth or were crooks -- it still doesn't affect today one bit.  I've always supported open records for anything I've been involved with

Bruce, try to see this from my perspective. You mention "20 years in business," but for someone who started the "first full-service investment firm to use the Internet," (your company website is basically dead, according to Alexa) your web presence is nearly nil. Of course, I'm not counting the various self-promo sites like like http://brucefenton.com/bruce-fenton-biography/, or spoon-fed blurbs by "cryptojournalists."

To me (I do tend to err on the dark side), you're just another Anon. Or Craig Steven Wright, whichever. This is Bitcoin.

The Bitcoin Foundation, OTOH, it I do know. Its history is there for everyone to see. Here: http://www.coindesk.com/companies/bitcoin-foundation/

2) sure, second in command would have helped, we do have a COO - the car accident was 3 weeks after I volunteered - I didn't have such a volunteer then, if you know someone who'd fit, let us know -- no need to be sarastic about it

Out of the 9 months you've chaired TBF, roughly how many were spent convalescing?

3) you didn't answer my question about why foundation would need an audit to prove that we don't owe money when no one has asked or accused the foundation of owing them money - you just answer "need an audit, period" -- okay....to what end exactly?   You still haven't clearly stated what you want the audit to show and cover -- what type of audit do you want?  Tax audit? GAAP?

Bruce, what do you mean by "financial transparency"? "I'm starting with roughly $30k, take my word for it. There was no misappropriation by former board members, take my word for it." Something like that?
You plan to be "transparent" without independent audits? How would that work, exactly?

4) when I said to focus on people not pieces of paper--- the paper I was referring to wasn't financial records it's the corporate structure / documents -- saying you "don't trust the foundation" is not as logical as talking about a person or people -- there is no person called "Bitcoin Foundation" an organization is incapable of lying, telling the truth or anything else -- it's just a document -- PEOPLE are who actually make decisions and can be trusted or not -- I'm only asking for others to base opinions on the actual actions of the people they judge --

Again, I don't know you. I do know Chairman Pierce. Ignoring the seedier allegations, his past business dealings fail to reassure.
"[...] The same year, Alan Debonneville, Pierce’s co-founder, sued him in a California District Court for fraud. According to court documents, Debonneville alleged that Pierce had stolen stock and misappropriated about $200,000 in company money to pay for default judgments against him and Collins-Rector. Pierce settled the lawsuit in 2008 for an undisclosed amount, according to documents."

5) I co-founded Bitcoin Association, stepped down when I volunteered at Bitcoin Foundation  Greg Simon is the president of it now --- not sure what you are getting at with the 501c6 comment -- I've explained how they filed a couple of times -- for Bitcoin Association we are now talking about an entirely different organization -- Bitcoin Association has no tax status in the US, did not file or apply for tax status and did not solicit or accept donations

Nothing to stop the new foundation (assuming another is needed) from self-filing 501c6 & operating. The Bitcoin Foundation did just that for -- how many years?

That said, in my own small way I'm helping TBF stay relevant: by bumping this thread.
It was off the front page

Maybe he can garner support on reddit. They'll get behind anything if you throw around some buzzwords.

[BruceFenton]

You are priceless.  "Oh no!  Fenton owns a website with a low Alexa ranking!"

C'mon now -- do you really think it productive to examine every minor detail of my life and assume the worst?

It's really clear that you are trying every possible thing to attack me, my record, anything related to it.


Take a look at this super long thread--  take a look at the many, many accusations, personal attacks etc.

Clearly people have spent untold hours and hours digging for dirt.  At the end of it all-- what do we have?  

What is the main accusation against me after all this?  Low Alexa ranking on one (actually dozens) of website I own?   Volunteered to try a turnaround of an organization that wasted money?  Seriously -- think about it.

I'm a dude who likes Bitcoin and wants to help out by running a couple developer events and some education / engagement -- as a volunteer.   That's it


(If you insist on discussing the low traffic website:  as you know the Internet changed a hell of a lot in the 21 years since Atlantic Financial was founded - over time the firm and my practice moved towards focusing on a tiny number of very large clients - I sold off and divested much of the old legacy retail ops and didn't focus on the site for years because it is not longer very relevant to what we do - yeah, the website is outdated - it doesn't have any relevance on the truth of the statement that it was the first full service firm back in 1994.

Now I know what happens next, so I'll save the time:  some Bitcoin Sherlock will go back to whois/ICANN records and --- rather than simply asking me the question --- will post "Liar!  Scum!!  Atlanticfinacial.com wasn't registered until two years later in 1996!  #{%!?€! no way you were around in 1994."
Yep, previous domain was AF.com I sold it to American Freighways who then sold it to American Friends when they got acquired.   Then someone will go back and say "Lies!  AF.com was registered in August of 1994 not December 1994 and I'll explain that the registration was transferred from the older legacy system and so on and so on.


Look-
I came in here with intent publicly post tax return data detailing spending of the past administration for the group I volunteered to help turn around.

I've done my best to painstakingly answer every possible question -- I think it's been hashed out quite a bit now.


Running low on time for this --

So:

- if anyone has comments on the mission statement -- great

- If anyone wants to organize an audit, sponsor one or run point on it, great, you are welcome to

- If anyone has any specific accusation of criminal wrongdoing of any previous member and provides evidence/ information leading to the recovery of funds then I will provide a bounty of at least 10%

- if anyone has any questions or concerns about anything I have ever done or said in my life feel free to bring them up  -- it's probably more effective to simply ask me directly via email as there have been pretty simple explanations for any questions

- if anyone wants to volunteer to help, great

- if anyone wants to create or support other organizations that help Bitcoin or try to help Bitcoin that's great also

[BruceFenton]

[...] Clearly people have spent untold hours and hours digging for dirt.  At the end of it all-- what do we have?  

What is the main accusation against me after all this?  Low Alexa ranking on one (actually dozens) of website I own?

Well no, Bruce. Not countless hours.
I typed "Bruce Fenton" into Google, and voila! the third result was

...or, as you've so humbly put it, "one [of] (actually dozens) of website I own."

Um yeah, that's my site and bio.   Not exactly a secret.  In fact it's published on purpose.

Hadn't really considered being humble mentioning owning dozens of sites --- domains cost about $9 each so it's sort of like someone saying they had hamburgers at Five Guys -- is that bragging of some sort?

[QuestionAuthority]

What country will you operate the new TBF in USA or UK?

Would you be willing to allow the Blockchain Alliance cooperative US government agencies to review and oversee TBF records if I contacted them and they were willing? I'm sure with the criminal history of previous members that might be interesting for them. That also might go a long way toward increased funding and membership. Considering the massive number of Bitcoin users on this forum that contacted the US government for help with such fraudsters as MtGox, BFL, Trenton Shavers ponzi, Bitcoinica, GLBSE and so on a little more oversight might make them more willing to give up some membership fees.

[BruceFenton]

What country will you operate the new TBF in USA or UK?

Would you be willing to allow the Blockchain Alliance cooperative US government agencies to review and oversee TBF records if I contacted them and they were willing? I'm sure with the criminal history of previous members that might be interesting for them. That also might go a long way toward increased funding and membership. Considering the massive number of Bitcoin users on this forum that contacted the US government for help with such fraudsters as MtGox, BFL, Trenton Shavers ponzi, Bitcoinica, GLBSE and so on a little more oversight might make them more willing to give up some membership fees.

So let me get this straight.  

You have absolutely no evidence of any criminal wrongdoing whatsoever -- you don't even have the basis of speculation for any investigation naming a specific person and law you think was broken

....you can't even name what law you think was broken or what specific person you think broke it

....but, since the foundation had Charlie Shrem and Karpeles as members

....you now want to contact the FBI, DHS, TSA, US Marshall Service and The Secret Service and ask them to investigate this organization which is now run by people who had nothing to do with past decisions and in most cases never even met, let alone worked with, the people who had criminal charges against them?

...and you, by default, want me personally --- who you and no one else no one has accused of criminal activity or even mismanagement at the foundation, to be the point person in dealing with multiple Federal law enforcement agencies....

....when you surely know that I am a vocal critic of these organizations and this specific Blockchain Alliance?

You are serious here?

(To answer, yes, as I've said many times I have no issues opening books and records to anyone)

[BruceFenton]

>You have absolutely no evidence of any criminal wrongdoing whatsoever

Well, there's all that money that's not there anymore, so there's that.

Just for shits tho: would paying your BF consultancy fees; putting your dog on salary + traveling expenses; renting your buddy's back yard for $40k/night -- any of these seem like criminal wrongdoings to you?

How badly does one have to fuck his fiduciary duties before shit's criminal?

Losing money is not criminal wrongdoing.  Companies lose money and make bad decisions.  Assets like Bitcoin go up and down.  This is not a criminal charge against the people who were there...not even close.

You are also not only not being productive but outright lying in the second part of the post: I am not paid any consultancy fees, my entire travel expense reimbursement is about $1000 in history and there is no side dealing like you allude to whatsoever.

[BruceFenton]

I am not suggesting you have done all, or any, of the above. I don't know if you got a dog or a BF, don't know you. What I did was ask a hypothetical question. You, apparently, feel everything listed falls under "losing money," and thus "not criminal." Correct?

The problem is that you are presuming guilt first...even to the point of calling Federal agencies.

I haven't seen anything criminal, Jim Harper who was an attorney and board member said the same thing, also Patrick Murck, the accountants bookkeepers etc.

No one has even made any specific accusation.   No one is saying someone stole thier money or is owed money etc.

It's all simply and totally random accusations that are not based on any facts but just that some people dislike the organization.

[QuestionAuthority]

Maybe there never was even a little impropriety, only reckless spending. There may never have been enough money collected from members to be worth the bother. Could you provide the Bitcoin addresses where donations were received so I could see for myself? Gotta love that blockchain, it records everything.

[tomothy]

Hey Bruce,

Will TBF make any comments about recent happenings? I.e. Mike Hearn's comment, participation and recent action with Bitcoin Classic vs Bitcoin Core? Is classic supported by TBF?

Also, any comments or supplemental filing to SEC w/ regards to Cryptsy 13k BTC 300k LTC theft?

If someone wanted to help volunteer w/ TBF what would you want them to do/who to contact, etc etc?

[BruceFenton]

Maybe there never was even a little impropriety, only reckless spending. There may never have been enough money collected from members to be worth the bother. Could you provide the Bitcoin addresses where donations were received so I could see for myself? Gotta love that blockchain, it records everything.

I wasn't at all involved with the foundation at that time and have no idea what addresses were used.  I don't think blockchain records would be super helpful since it doesn't specify where the money went, only an address..  Most incoming money was from memberships -- each year's revenue is reported on the tax returns.   In 2014 it was approx $300k

The other, larger piece of money they had was from the increase in value of Bitcoin - many early donations and memberships were paid with Bitcoin and that increased - in 2014 they had $4.6 million in assets, almost all of that Bitcoin.

[BruceFenton]

Hey Bruce,

Will TBF make any comments about recent happenings? I.e. Mike Hearn's comment, participation and recent action with Bitcoin Classic vs Bitcoin Core? Is classic supported by TBF?

Also, any comments or supplemental filing to SEC w/ regards to Cryptsy 13k BTC 300k LTC theft?

If someone wanted to help volunteer w/ TBF what would you want them to do/who to contact, etc etc?

Bitcoin Foundation has members on all sides of the debate: Peter Todd is a member, Greg Maxwell, Gavin is Chief Scientist, Garzik is a member.

To fairly represent all members,mat this stage it hasn't made much sense to support one side because there is no clear consensus about what the members want.

I really don't know much about Cryptsy.

They can contact me or amy@bitcoinfoundation.org

Can contact a committee chair or can get a few people together and propose creating a new committee.

Thanks very much

B


EDIT: this is a ever-evolving and we may make a statement as early as today

[QuestionAuthority]

Maybe there never was even a little impropriety, only reckless spending. There may never have been enough money collected from members to be worth the bother. Could you provide the Bitcoin addresses where donations were received so I could see for myself? Gotta love that blockchain, it records everything.

I wasn't at all involved with the foundation at that time and have no idea what addresses were used.  I don't think blockchain records would be super helpful since it doesn't specify where the money went, only an address..  Most incoming money was from memberships -- each year's revenue is reported on the tax returns.   In 2014 it was approx $300k

The other, larger piece of money they had was from the increase in value of Bitcoin - many early donations and memberships were paid with Bitcoin and that increased - in 2014 they had $4.6 million in assets, almost all of that Bitcoin.

A Bitcoin address can tell you quite a few things. It's a roadmap that can tell you where the coins went and sometimes how much and when they were exchanged for fiat. In many cases, it can tell you a lot more unless they used a tumbler which would also tell me something. At one point even MtGox was refusing to accept stolen bitcoins. I have a friend that's really good at parsing the blockchain. I was going to have him take a look at the addresses for me.

So, you don't have access to any of the records or they didn't keep any records? Isn't that going to make an audit a little difficult?

[tomothy]

Thanks Bruce,

I'm sure you've seen the letter from KNC, if not...
I was on some of the Chinese Forums earlier and they also had some interesting opinions.
Is it safe to say it's time for Core to face a re-structuring? Looks like the shareholders are in revolt...

https://forum.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-discussion/an-open-letter-from-sam-cole-ceo-of-knc-miner-t4868.html

[Gleb Gamow]

Maybe there never was even a little impropriety, only reckless spending. There may never have been enough money collected from members to be worth the bother. Could you provide the Bitcoin addresses where donations were received so I could see for myself? Gotta love that blockchain, it records everything.

I wasn't at all involved with the foundation at that time and have no idea what addresses were used.  I don't think blockchain records would be super helpful since it doesn't specify where the money went, only an address..  Most incoming money was from memberships -- each year's revenue is reported on the tax returns.   In 2014 it was approx $300k

The other, larger piece of money they had was from the increase in value of Bitcoin - many early donations and memberships were paid with Bitcoin and that increased - in 2014 they had $4.6 million in assets, almost all of that Bitcoin.

Bruce, from all I've read you come across as genuine, thus knowing your fondness of The Bard, hence the [gifted] link I provided knowing that you'd appreciate it, but forgive me for harping a tad longer on that $100K tx.

KnC was invoiced via BitPay for their $100K platinum membership fee which they paid and is documented. BitPay, being ONLY a third-party payment provider does not hold onto any funds but redistributes them via fiat, bitcoin or a combination thereof within ~48 hours per preset parameters of the receiving party, in this example TBF. It's this bitcoin wallet address in TBF's control that the $100K worth of bitcoins, or portion of (if a percentage was sent to TBF's bank account perhaps), was sent that I, among others (assume), desire to see.

Please do your best to provide what I've requested above, for it's been nearly a year and half since I first pursued this transaction to no prevail, albeit your recent reveal has gotten us closer.

To be clear, again, at this penning I have nary a qualm with your current handling of TBF's affairs.

Thank you.

Bruno Kucinskas

[BruceFenton]

Thanks Bruno,

Let me see what I can find out.

I have commitments early in the week then to leave for Moami Bitcoin conference Wed followed immediately by a trip to Saudi Arabia on Friday so it may be a while if I can fist the answers.

One problem is that Bitcoin and cash is fungible.  There isn't a way to track the KNC other than to when it needed up in a bigger pool of Bitcoin or cash controlled by the foundation at that time.   Those records may not even exist anymore -- they did keep track total inflows and outflows like we saw in the 990 form that started this thread.

I'll see what I can do, please feel free to email or reschedge out in a few weeks as a reminder.

B

[Gleb Gamow]

Thanks Bruno,

Let me see what I can find out.

I have commitments early in the week then to leave for Moami Bitcoin conference Wed followed immediately by a trip to Saudi Arabia on Friday so it may be a while if I can fist the answers.

One problem is that Bitcoin and cash is fungible.  There isn't a way to track the KNC other than to when it needed up in a bigger pool of Bitcoin or cash controlled by the foundation at that time.   Those records may not even exist anymore -- they did keep track total inflows and outflows like we saw in the 990 form that started this thread.

I'll see what I can do, please feel free to email or reschedge out in a few weeks as a reminder.

B

Hey, while you're in Miami, can you report back to us if Marshall Long took a bath recently? We've noticed on his Facebook page that he's yet to 'Like' water.

[Gleb Gamow]

Just a friendly bump to see if you've learnt anything. Also, hope your trip to Miami was fruitful. Hey, and speaking of fruits, did you by chance bump into Marshall "Stinking" Long while there?