Bitcoin Forum
May 10, 2024, 01:11:06 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another?  (Read 37956 times)
ShadowOfHarbringer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1470
Merit: 1005


Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952


View Profile
January 29, 2016, 03:18:54 PM
 #81

Yes, but that happened in 1997. 11 years passed before someone figured out how to use it and invent Bitcoin - the fact that he takes credit for inventing Bitcoin in this manner shows insights into the level of ego we are talking about.

Please quote where he does (I remember from when he joined this forum after me that he said in his sig that he invented Hashcash but not Bitcoin).

So "I'm calling bullshit".


"cryptographer, privacy enhancing tech, ecash, inventor of hashcash (bitcoin is hashcash extended with inflation control)"

Bitcoin is far more than hashcash+
Well said.

I will repeat it once more:

Saying that "bitcoin is hashcash extended with inflation control" is exactly like saying that "car is just horse carriage extended with combustion engine"

A person who said such thing must have HUGE ego problems.

1715303466
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715303466

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715303466
Reply with quote  #2

1715303466
Report to moderator
1715303466
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715303466

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715303466
Reply with quote  #2

1715303466
Report to moderator
1715303466
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715303466

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715303466
Reply with quote  #2

1715303466
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
1715303466
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715303466

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715303466
Reply with quote  #2

1715303466
Report to moderator
CIYAM
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1890
Merit: 1078


Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer


View Profile WWW
January 29, 2016, 03:20:10 PM
 #82

I will repeat it once more:

Saying that "bitcoin is hashcash extended with inflation control" is exactly like saying that "car is just horse carriage extended with combustion engine"

A person who said such thing must have HUGE ego problems.

Yet - you do not provide the original source of the quote.

Hmm.. just an asshole or what?

(a "real man" doesn't resort to quoting secondary quotes and then using large fonts to make his point which is seemingly exactly what you do)

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
tAP
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238
Merit: 100


View Profile
January 29, 2016, 03:21:08 PM
 #83

I will repeat it once more:

Saying that "bitcoin is hashcash extended with inflation control" is exactly like saying that "car is just horse carriage extended with combustion engine"

A person who said such thing must have HUGE ego problems.

Yet - you do not provide the original source of the quote.

Hmm.. just an asshole or what?


If you're referring to the quote "hashcash with extended inflation control," it's on Adam Back's twitter profile...

"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."

LP Hartley
canth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1442
Merit: 1001



View Profile
January 29, 2016, 03:21:44 PM
 #84

I will repeat it once more:

Saying that "bitcoin is hashcash extended with inflation control" is exactly like saying that "car is just horse carriage extended with combustion engine"

A person who said such thing must have HUGE ego problems.

Yet - you do not provide the original source of the quote.

Hmm.. just an asshole or what?


Link for the lazy. https://twitter.com/adam3us

CIYAM
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1890
Merit: 1078


Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer


View Profile WWW
January 29, 2016, 03:23:23 PM
 #85

Link for the lazy. https://twitter.com/adam3us

I don't see it - can you just provide the *exact link* or not?

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
tAP
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238
Merit: 100


View Profile
January 29, 2016, 03:24:34 PM
 #86

Link for the lazy. https://twitter.com/adam3us

I don't see it - can you just provide the *exact link* or not?


Check under his picture, under his name..  We can't direct link to that.

 Adam Back
@adam3us

cryptographer, privacy enhancing tech, ecash, inventor of hashcash (bitcoin is hashcash extended with inflation control)

"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."

LP Hartley
ShadowOfHarbringer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1470
Merit: 1005


Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952


View Profile
January 29, 2016, 03:26:21 PM
 #87

You are so naive and have completely no understanding of the topic you are discussing. It would be a waste of time.

Personally I think your parents should have taught you better than to try and lecture your elders about "being naive" but seemingly they didn't (perhaps your parents were not educated at all?).
You have no idea who are you talking to, so stop assuming things.
You don't know everything about the person on the other side of the monitor.
You don't. I am not a young person.

So unfortunately you have a bit of a problem in even knowing how to be polite (apart from not knowing when you are wrong).
I am full aware that I am not very polite on the internet.
But with age & experience, I found out that it works better (most of the time) than being too polite.

We'll wait and see if you can ever "grow up" (but I doubt it).
I have my years, but already decided that I will not grow up. Never.
I have seen over the years that "growing up" too often means just agreeing with establishment and pretending that "everything is OK" while it is far from it.

So no matter how old I will be, I will never "grow up".

CIYAM
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1890
Merit: 1078


Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer


View Profile WWW
January 29, 2016, 03:27:45 PM
 #88

cryptographer, privacy enhancing tech, ecash, inventor of hashcash (bitcoin is hashcash extended with inflation control)

Well - I think perhaps this is not really the main point that the Chinese are interested in.

If good old Gavin's ego wasn't just as big then why would he be dancing between one fork or another just to try and rest control back to himself?

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
ShadowOfHarbringer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1470
Merit: 1005


Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952


View Profile
January 29, 2016, 03:28:57 PM
 #89

I will repeat it once more:

Saying that "bitcoin is hashcash extended with inflation control" is exactly like saying that "car is just horse carriage extended with combustion engine"

A person who said such thing must have HUGE ego problems.

Yet - you do not provide the original source of the quote.

Hmm.. just an asshole or what?

(a "real man" doesn't resort to quoting secondary quotes and then using large fonts to make his point which is seemingly exactly what you do)

Seriously ?
I hope twitter is working for you ?

https://twitter.com/adam3us


CIYAM
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1890
Merit: 1078


Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer


View Profile WWW
January 29, 2016, 03:29:25 PM
 #90

So no matter how old I will be, I will never "grow up".

Fine - "Peter Pan" - just don't expect "the adults" to bother talking with you (and please stop trying to lecture them as they don't appreciate it from your "dumb ass").

I don't user Twitter (which shows you are not as old as me straight away).


With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
tAP
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238
Merit: 100


View Profile
January 29, 2016, 03:29:46 PM
 #91

cryptographer, privacy enhancing tech, ecash, inventor of hashcash (bitcoin is hashcash extended with inflation control)

Well - I think perhaps this is not really the main point that the Chinese are interested in.

If good old Gavin's ego wasn't just as big then why would he be dancing between one fork or another just to try and rest control back to himself?


Gavin has been pretty vocal in saying he will help contribute code to pretty much anyone trying to improve Bitcoin.  I don't see anything wrong with that.  If he thought 1MB was best and was contributing code there you wouldn't have the same complaint.  Let's not demonize Gavin, that's not the argument.

"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."

LP Hartley
ShadowOfHarbringer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1470
Merit: 1005


Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952


View Profile
January 29, 2016, 03:32:06 PM
 #92

I will repeat this once more, for posterity:

Saying that "bitcoin is hashcash extended with inflation control" is exactly like saying that "car is just horse carriage extended with combustion engine"

A person who said such thing must have HUGE ego problems.

The source of the quote:
https://twitter.com/adam3us

Mirror in case he changes it:


Norway
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 406
Merit: 251


View Profile
January 29, 2016, 03:33:47 PM
 #93

Overall, there seems to be a sense of helplessness. Some reflected on why the Chinese had so little say in the matter and some urge that the Chinese should form their own core development team and create their own fork.

Hi Eric,

What do you think about the Classic implementation? What does chinese miners think about it?

Many Chinese Bitcoiners - not only miners, but also exchanges and wallet services, originally supported Classic for its support of 2MB block size, but after meeting Jeff Garzik in Beijing, many backtracked because they didn't believe that the team behind is capable or there is a roadmap.

That's weired. Jeff Garzik and Gavin Andresen would be some of the best team leaders in the world.
It will be interesting to see the adoption Classic gets after the first release in a few hours.
ShadowOfHarbringer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1470
Merit: 1005


Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952


View Profile
January 29, 2016, 03:35:16 PM
 #94

So no matter how old I will be, I will never "grow up".
Fine - "Peter Pan" - just don't expect "the adults" to bother talking with you (and please stop trying to lecture them as they don't appreciate it from your "dumb ass")
Dear Sir.

I have provided plenty of logical arguments of which all your posts are lacking.

So seriously, what kind of discussion do you expect with me ? When discussing with me:
- Stay strictly on topic (I perceive straying off topic as a manipulative & defensive tactic)
- Use logic
- Use factual arguments

So please, stop wasting my time and start the real discussion.

canth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1442
Merit: 1001



View Profile
January 29, 2016, 03:35:34 PM
 #95

cryptographer, privacy enhancing tech, ecash, inventor of hashcash (bitcoin is hashcash extended with inflation control)

Well - I think perhaps this is not really the main point that the Chinese are interested in.

If good old Gavin's ego wasn't just as big then why would he be dancing between one fork or another just to try and rest control back to himself?


Wresting control is not possible by any developer. Developers write code, create feature sets. Users choose distributions based upon feature sets. There is no wresting here - Bitcoin is about choice and freewill, enforced by value being decided by the economic majority.

If you really believe that it's possible to wrest control of Bitcoin then it has already failed.

CIYAM
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1890
Merit: 1078


Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer


View Profile WWW
January 29, 2016, 03:37:03 PM
 #96

So please, stop wasting my time and start the real discussion.

You are about as genuine as a virgin in a whorehouse.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
knight22
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000


--------------->¿?


View Profile
January 29, 2016, 03:37:49 PM
 #97

Core is now producing code that fails to reach broad consensus. They want to keep the blockchain small so more nodes can be easily run on the network but more and more people DON'T want you use their code anymore. The very reason why alternate implementation are pumping up. Ironic isn't it?

Core devs refuse ANY compromise to achieve consensus. They don't care to drive people and businesses away as long as bitcoin still fit in their business model. All this must be good for adoption and miners future revenue no?

I still don't get why miners don't see blockstream trying to offload transactions on their systems as a threat to their profits when the subsidy will dry out.

Somehow, Blockstream thinks that driving transactions up to a point that the blockchain becomes uneconomical (high fees not driven by competition) and unreliable  to use (not sure if your transactions will make it through) is a good idea for anyone to build businesses on top of it. The bitcoin blockchain is not the only one in town.

ShadowOfHarbringer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1470
Merit: 1005


Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952


View Profile
January 29, 2016, 03:40:22 PM
 #98

So please, stop wasting my time and start the real discussion.
You are about as genuine as a virgin in a whorehouse.
Hahahaha, that was actually a funny one.

Still, not on topic.

Anyway, I don't really care about your opinion.

oakpacific
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784
Merit: 1000


View Profile
January 29, 2016, 03:40:34 PM
Last edit: January 29, 2016, 03:55:10 PM by oakpacific
 #99


I hope this has provided some useful food for thought-- but really, what I think is missing is your thoughts. What requirements do you feel aren't being met by Core that would leave you asking such a question? (I could guess, but communication is much better than guessing.)



Some expressed the view that while SigWit has its potential, it is something never been tried before, therefore should be given more time for thorougher test; worse, some felt that it represents a development that has deviated from Satoshi's vision and eventually, led to increased complexity of the protocol to such degree that it would be forbidding to most startups.

BR,

Eric

Eric, Segwit is crucial to the development of Bitcoin for many important reasons, other than the size benefit, two of them(both cannot be resolved without Segwit) being fixing malleability issue and much faster signature verification(which is also vital to future block size increase), I am sure you understand the importance of both as a wallet provider.

Quote

Overall, there seems to be a sense of helplessness. Some reflected on why the Chinese had so little say in the matter and some urge that the Chinese should form their own core development team and create their own fork.
Let me know what you think as always.


Frankly that's why I believe the Chinese should not buy into the rhetoric of Bitcoin Classic developers, who clearly have a political agenda(in addition to the absymal record in development of many among them), and supported by people with questionable motives, as Toomim openly acknowledged in the Chinese miners Wechat group.

You might think that choosing Classic over Core is the best option to get a short-term block size expansion, but Classic's plan doesn't stop here, they also intend to decide changes to the code by popular vote: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/master...bitcoinclassic:master , within an environment clearly to the disadvantage of users and businesses in China and many other nations, it's not hard to imagine what most of the outcomes of such votes would be-representing only the opinion of English speaking Bitcoiners, even if we neglect all the technical reasons why it's an amusingly bad idea.

While I cannot eliminate the possibility that certain Core devs working for Blockstream may indeed share a vision with their employer as to what Bitcoin's future would be, the consciousness they have thus far displayed, I believe, is in alignment with the general interest of Chinese Bitcoiners, e.g., one of the most important reasons why Core devs oppose to a rash block size increase is the network connectivity problem of people living in China, and Blockstream is, as far as I know, the only company with both the technical expertise and willingness to work on some of the best solutions to the problem: weak blocks and IBLT, and they are working on it. In contrast with this is Classic devs' clear lack of long term sustainable plan to the block size problem, what if 2 MB blocks are filled up again, do we just double it every year, ad infinitum? I am sure you understand that this is unsustainable.

Also, if it's possible for such a political fork to take place, it would set a very bad precedent, as any interest group can possibly pay some developers to create a campaign to further split the network, by tweaking with some block parameters, for example, imagine some developers try to appeal to the interest of gamers with high-end GPUs by promising them a change of PoW function, under the banner of "re-decentralizing" the network, in which case the miners' opinion would not even matter to them. After all, it never costs much to pay for an army of shills to flood the online discussion forums to create a superficial "economic majority", like what we are seeing now, and economically heavy Western Bitcoin exchanges and payment processors certainly have never liked Chinese miners and would, probably never try to stop such a motion if it's indeed put forth.


I am not a Core dev and I could not speak for them, my personal suggestion would be: wait for Segwit to roll out, and if anything goes wrong with it, or the blocks are filling up again, we can push them harder for a block size raise, while wait for weak blocks and IBLT to be implemented, at which time they would have no further excuse, and it would be the moment of truth when we understand if they are truly sincere or not.  Smiley

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
iCEBREAKER
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072


Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


View Profile WWW
January 29, 2016, 03:43:57 PM
 #100

Just check Adam Back's (Blockstream's President) twitter profile. The guy thinks he actually invented Bitcoin !

According to the his twitter profile, Adam Back actually thinks that he invented Hashcash (and Bitcoin built upon the previous work).

This is almost certainly true, given that Hashcash is one of only eight references provided by Satoshi in Bitcoin's whitepaper.

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

As long as we're revisiting Bitcoin's Golden Age, let's consider the implications of Gavin having never been sold on the 'digital gold' narrative and preferring the 'fancy Visa' meme instead.

I plan on using Bitcoins as a convenient, very-low-cost means of exchange.

I don't plan on saving a significant number of Bitcoins as a store of value.


██████████
█████████████████
██████████████████████
█████████████████████████
████████████████████████████
████
████████████████████████
█████
███████████████████████████
█████
███████████████████████████
██████
████████████████████████████
██████
████████████████████████████
██████
████████████████████████████
██████
███████████████████████████
██████
██████████████████████████
█████
███████████████████████████
█████████████
██████████████
████████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
██████████████████████
█████████████████
██████████

Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
Is Dash a scam?
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!