A foundation with 80% of the coins can never work.

[Nolo]

Taxes are percentages of someones income, a business profits, or a percentage of a sale.  Foundation funds come from non of these sources and are not a Tax, what FRC has is a 20% royalty payed to miners initially vs 100% royalty as other coins have had.  As much as you may not like a lower royalty, that dose not make it a tax as tax is not simply a 4 letter word for 'money I am not getting'.

We are still looking for constructive input on the creation of bylaws for the foundation which will specify exactly how and how NOT to distribute funds.  We are willing put put the foundation under binding legal obligations because we have good intent and high minded ideals and are intent on showing it in both word and deed.  Come to our forums and contribute to that effort rather then just flaming us here.  If your right that were doomed to be corrupted at least you can say you did everything in your power to prevent it, on the other hand if we live up to high standards that will be a great step forward for distribution of crypto-currency and we will have set a high bar by which to measure others in the future.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not flaming you.   I hope Freicoin succeeds.  

[ElectricMucus]

Taxes are percentages of someones income, a business profits, or a percentage of a sale.  Foundation funds come from non of these sources and are not a Tax, what FRC has is a 20% royalty payed to miners initially vs 100% royalty as other coins have had.  As much as you may not like a lower royalty, that dose not make it a tax as tax is not simply a 4 letter word for 'money I am not getting'.

Medieval landlords didn't even take taxes either, the peasants weren't entitled to what they got too.

We are still looking for constructive input ...

Make TradeFortresses fork the official client.


There is nothing to debate here actually. If it aint be done freicoin in it's current form will be dead in 3 months.
I'll be back to tell you "I told you so."

[Impaler]

Ok yes Nolo your not flaming, more just criticizing, other people are flaming or borderline trolling us.  Still please do try to turn the criticism to a constructive end by articulating what kind of rules you want to govern distribution of FRC cause the die is already cast on those coins being segregated so anyone who wants FRC to succeed De-facto wants the foundation to succeed.

[ElectricMucus]

.. anyone who wants FRC to succeed De-facto wants the foundation to succeed.

No, I want freicoin to succeed, the foundation wasn't part of it when it was announced. And I really don't like the foundation.
I am not a minority here, at least on the latter.

[John (John K.)]

.. anyone who wants FRC to succeed De-facto wants the foundation to succeed.

No, I want freicoin to succeed, the foundation wasn't part of it when it was announced. And I really don't like the foundation.
I am not a minority here, at least on the latter.

+1.
Freicoin and its demurrage feature? Interesting and new.
Foundation controlling the coins, where a bad decision by the devs can wreck the economy? Solidcoin.
Human greed is a dangerous issue.

[Impaler]

Mucus you clearly don't want fund to be seized by insiders aka 'crony capitalists' and have said so several times, that's our goal too, thus you want us to succeed at our goal (thx for the support  ).  The only problem is you don't believe that is our real goal as you have in your mind convicted us already.  Given that how dose making constructive suggestions for bylaws make the situation worse?

[Impaler]

+1.
Freicoin and its demurrage feature? Interesting and new.
Foundation controlling the coins, where a bad decision by the devs can wreck the economy? Solidcoin.
Human greed is a dangerous issue.

Anyone who has been involved in our forum discussions knows that we felt the distribution system of BTC was just as flawed as the indestructibility of BTC.  We has said our inspiration was the Worgl and other similar currencies like the Chiemgauer that operates today, these and other community currencies are issued far more equitably then present mining rigs could hope to achieve.  If this came as a shock to you then it's because you haven't been reading our development forums.

[nethead]

Maaku,

Would you give up 80% of your wages to a stranger?

No? Then don't expect miners to give you 80% of their earnings when they could mine something else and keep 100%.


Your message that miners should trust some faceless, and inevitably corrupt, foundation with their earnings more than they should trust themselves is delusional. You have fallen to uncontrolled greed.

Those coins were never the miner's to begin with. Why do you feel entitled to them?

OMG, maaku, if miners work to mine(CREATE) them, they are theirs.

Offtopic: PPcoins grow out of nowhere

[Bicknellski]

+1.
Freicoin and its demurrage feature? Interesting and new.
Foundation controlling the coins, where a bad decision by the devs can wreck the economy? Solidcoin.
Human greed is a dangerous issue.

Anyone who has been involved in our forum discussions knows that we felt the distribution system of BTC was just as flawed as the indestructibility of BTC.  We has said our inspiration was the Worgl and other similar currencies like the Chiemgauer that operates today, these and other community currencies are issued far more equitably then present mining rigs could hope to achieve.  If this came as a shock to you then it's because you haven't been reading our development forums.

Seems to me a lot of disinformation about the FFoundation is being flung around. If you actually go to forums and see what is being proposed you might be slightly more persuaded by the reasoning for a FFoundation that can equitably and democratically dispense the trust. Simply stating the obvious limitations or dangers is something that has already been done in the forum on this topic. The core concept is ensure that the currency is able to create movement so it is used not sat on by those who wish to accumulate wealth and stagnate the currency. If you are actually interested in having a truly free currency then a system where we all have a voice in how that trust is distributed is best. Have a look at the thread and offer some input. Simply stating it won't work or people will pocket the coins etc is known already... how about working out how we need to distribute the coins in fashion that is ultimately in the interest of the WHOLE community rather than one segment? http://www.freicoin.org/freicoin-foundation-development-thread-t81.html#p767
 
What I see from these posts against a foundation is more of knee-jerk reaction rather than any concerted effort to understand the underpinnings of having the currency actually circulate and be used as a currency should. I hope people have actually made some effort to understand the why Freicoin is setup the way it is rather than simply dismissing it out of hand. I for one consider the ideas offered compelling and the experiment should move forward as planed considering the historical significance of previous efforts of this nature. If done well the FFoundation would be a model for democratic reform especially in terms of currency and economics and possibly politically as well. The ideal would be that we can circumvent the obvious pitfalls of Bitcoin and pushing cryptocurrencies forward rather than stagnate. You can actually make history rather than suppress it with such conservative and frankly narrow opinions. If you get involved you can be part of a real change in how we use money. I think it is well worth the experiment. If you don't like the premise don't mine it or trade it seems simple enough but I think giving it a shot is a much more progressive approach don't you?

[Bicknellski]

.. anyone who wants FRC to succeed De-facto wants the foundation to succeed.

No, I want freicoin to succeed, the foundation wasn't part of it when it was announced. And I really don't like the foundation.
I am not a minority here, at least on the latter.

It was posted in several place prior to it being launched as has been indicated many times already.

[sd]

Maaku,

Would you give up 80% of your wages to a stranger?

No? Then don't expect miners to give you 80% of their earnings when they could mine something else and keep 100%.


Your message that miners should trust some faceless, and inevitably corrupt, foundation with their earnings more than they should trust themselves is delusional. You have fallen to uncontrolled greed.

Those coins were never the miner's to begin with. Why do you feel entitled to them?

If I mine coins I see them as mine. They were created with my equipment, my electricity, my time. If you plan to steal them before they are even created I'm going to avoid you like I'd avoid any other thief. No miner will gave away what he could otherwise keep no matter how pretty your reassurances are.

But you are blinded by greed and can no longer see anything but dollar signs. Look at this from the miners viewpoint.

[Bicknellski]

Maaku,

Would you give up 80% of your wages to a stranger?

No? Then don't expect miners to give you 80% of their earnings when they could mine something else and keep 100%.


Your message that miners should trust some faceless, and inevitably corrupt, foundation with their earnings more than they should trust themselves is delusional. You have fallen to uncontrolled greed.

Those coins were never the miner's to begin with. Why do you feel entitled to them?

If I mine coins I see them as mine. They were created with my equipment, my electricity, my time. If you plan to steal them before they are even created I'm going to avoid you like I'd avoid any other thief. No miner will gave away what he could otherwise keep no matter how pretty your reassurances are.

But you are blinded by greed and can no longer see anything but dollar signs. Look at this from the miners viewpoint.

Greed? I don't have mining rig... I am not part of the dev team or a FFoundation member. You are limiting the scope of what is possible. If you mine it you are accepting the 80% and the 5% and if you don't mine it you accept the 80% and 5% and if you trade it you accept the 80% and 5%. So now that we have settled that how about actually taking a leap of faith and get involved in DEMOCRATICALLY dispensing the trust? Rather than having a small foundation board decide why not the whole community? Isn't having an 80% stake initially of the currency for all better than a fraction of that in a few hands? I think you want to be a 1% and hold as many coins as you can compared with the alternative is having a currency that actually is useful and used for trade not accumulation of wealth. Very very limited view you have and ultimately very UN-democratic of you. Basically you want to screw over the users of the currency so you can mine and get rich... well Freicoin is not that kind of currency.

The intent is there all you need to do now is get involved and ENSURE that the 80% is dispensed democratically. You are debating changing the Freicoin into something that it is not and that debate is over. It was over months and months and months ago. Move forward and find the best way possible to dispense the trust. What is so difficult about that concept? Furthering DEMOCRACY in currency not something that interests you? You would rather have a few pools of miners control it all right from day one and there would be little hope of reversing that. Look at Bitcoin now. Look at it very carefully. Freicoin is offering everyone a freedom to be part of the FFoundation and offer your suggestions. Much much more democratic.

You are the one being blinded with greed... you want cryptocurrencies to be a way for you and your ilk to get rich at the expense of the currency community as a whole. Sad that you have no vision of the future of humanity, let alone the Freicoin.

[scrybe]

Maaku,

Would you give up 80% of your wages to a stranger?

No? Then don't expect miners to give you 80% of their earnings when they could mine something else and keep 100%.


Your message that miners should trust some faceless, and inevitably corrupt, foundation with their earnings more than they should trust themselves is delusional. You have fallen to uncontrolled greed.

Those coins were never the miner's to begin with. Why do you feel entitled to them?

OMG, maaku, if miners work to mine(CREATE) them, they are theirs.

Offtopic: PPcoins grow out of nowhere

You have a fundamental misunderstanding here.

Miners are paid for confirming the transactions with a subsidy, they don't exert any more work to generate coins for themselves AND the Foundation vs. just for themselves. There is no ironclad rule that generation all has to go to miners, or that miners are entitled to 100% of all coins created by their efforts. If the creation of 750 coins was 3 times more intensive than generating 250 coins you might have a point, but in this case you are conflating a reward for work with the work itself.

This is a rule/parameter/behavior of Bitcoin, not something that must be true of all p2p mined PoW cryptocoins.

By the same logic I would have a right to get upset that the block reward fluctuates on PPCoin, or any number of other unreasonable complaints. But I looked up the rules to the PPCoin game, and decided I liked them well enough to play. If I missed something (like I did when I initially thought PPC would be deflationary) then that was my own fault.

[sd]

You are the one being blinded with greed... you want cryptocurrencies to be a way for you and your ilk to get rich at the expense of the currency community as a whole. Sad that you have no vision of the future of humanity, let alone the Freicoin.

Where as you would distribute my work amongst a wide community to enrich all instead of me selfishly keeping it. That sounds nice for the community but it totally removes my incentive to mine and makes the whole community poorer because of it. Your shadowy foundation can have 80% of the zero I'm mining.

What you are attempting to implement is communism not democracy. Communism is a beautiful idea but it has never worked in practice. To quote an evil old dragon 'The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.'

[ElectricMucus]

how about working out how we need to distribute the coins in fashion that is ultimately in the interest of the WHOLE community rather than one segment? http://www.freicoin.org/freicoin-foundation-development-thread-t81.html#p767

How about stopping the project and do it the right way:

1. Implement more innovative and up-to-current-tech-level features, like SHA-384, 2 minute block, simple and unique address format, etc.
2. Hire freelancers to create copies of KickStarter, SatoshiDice, Bitvisitor, BitMit, Reedit tip BOT for your forum and like 20 more coin "sinks".
3. Once step 2. is complete, get miners and others to announce coin launch few weeks in advance on as many news outlets as possible.
4. Once time is right, release the coin client using BitTorrent, to null the chance of failed launch due download server becoming DDoS-ed.
5. Miners get 100% coins. Regardless of if you chose to mine yourself or not, you get fame, glory, community and working demurrage system.

If you people behind Freicoin think you are neccessary and important when it comes to anything but providing the tools, you are dead wrong.

I second this notion.
1+2 are probably overkill but you are trying to be innovative aren't you?   

[smoothie]

how about working out how we need to distribute the coins in fashion that is ultimately in the interest of the WHOLE community rather than one segment? http://www.freicoin.org/freicoin-foundation-development-thread-t81.html#p767

How about stopping the project and do it the right way:

1. Implement more innovative and up-to-current-tech-level features, like SHA-384, 2 minute block, simple and unique address format, etc.
2. Hire freelancers to create copies of KickStarter, SatoshiDice, Bitvisitor, BitMit, Reedit tip BOT for your forum and like 20 more coin "sinks".
3. Once step 2. is complete, get miners and others to announce coin launch few weeks in advance on as many news outlets as possible.
4. Once time is right, release the coin client using BitTorrent, to null the chance of failed launch due download server becoming DDoS-ed.
5. Miners get 100% coins. Regardless of if you chose to mine yourself or not, you get fame, glory, community and working demurrage system.

If you people behind Freicoin think you are neccessary and important when it comes to anything but providing the tools, you are dead wrong.

I second this notion.
1+2 are probably overkill but you are trying to be innovative aren't you?   

This ^

[Transisto]

Can I see the discussion where it was decided 80% would go to a foundation ?

80% seems like the dumbest ratio, I would find anything above 10% to be stupid and greedy.

Is this 80% expected to stay forever ? is so, this has to be the worst idea for a crypto currency yet.

[galambo]

Is this 80% expected to stay forever ? is so, this has to be the worst idea for a crypto currency yet.

No. It eventually decreases to zero.

[nethead]

Is this 80% expected to stay forever ? is so, this has to be the worst idea for a crypto currency yet.

No. It eventually decreases to zero.

After that? What miners will get? Will that be after halving or something? (if there is halving)
When will this happen, and what guarantees me that you will not sell everything and abandon frc?
Maybe even now you could "sell frc" as i see always threads popping up "wts 10k frc" etc etc..

With the current rate 7mil frc(which you own) are at about 2240.0btc (if my calculation was correct)
Since you are so greedy to put a "tax" like that, what says to me that you will not start selling them and run away?
Its what I contributed to be mined, thats why i ask

and i cannot forget this from maaku:
Those coins were never the miner's to begin with. Why do you feel entitled to them?

[galambo]

After that? What miners will get? Will that be after halving or something? (if there is halving)
When will this happen, and what guarantees me that you will not sell everything and abandon frc?
Maybe even now you could "sell frc" as i see always threads popping up "wts 10k frc" etc etc..

With the current rate 7mil frc(which you own) are at about 2240.0btc (if my calculation was correct)
Since you are so greedy to put a "tax" like that, what says to me that you will not start selling them and run away?
Its what I contributed to be mined, thats why i ask

and i cannot forget this from maaku:
Those coins were never the miner's to begin with. Why do you feel entitled to them?

The miners get the foundations funds at a rate of 5% per year. The miners will eventually have all of the foundations funds. There is no halving, the miners will always get the 5%.