280 BTC total bets between Micon and mrb (are BFL ASICs real?)

[Puppet]

becoin, you are ridiculous. You said word for word "BFL is going to deliver something like a bitcoin mining ASIC", which contradicts "BFL is a scam" (because everybody except you interprets it as meaning "BFL will deceive by not delivering anything").

In your very own vocabulary, "is a scam" seems to mean "is late". If that is what you want to complain about then use the adjective "late", not the noun "scam". How many times do I have to explain this?

it may not be that black and white. For arguments sake, lets assume BFL gets their 75K chips tomorrow, assembles everything and then  does "burn in tests" of  their hardware for 6 months straight before shipping. Would that make it a scam or just late?

[becoin]

How many times do I have to explain this?

Just answer my question!

Do you think my grandma won't deserve a scammer tag if she delivers "something" after indefinite number of delays and after outsourcing every possible aspect of ASIC creation?

BFL is incompetent?

BFL is incompetent scam.

[Micon]

I have been extremely clear on what I will or won't bet on.  When a professional bettor offers a bet and it is declined, it is in extremely poor taste to say "ooooooohhhh!!!! you are such a wussy!!! you won't bet me!!!"  Since you are a classless narcissist and natural manipulator of the facts, in your brain it actually makes sense that if I decline your 2000 coin $60,000 vague term'ed wager that I was akin to a scammer.  You can say this while holding millions upon millions in pre-order monies, having missed every deadline for ASICs you have ever posted, having not one but two other companies beat you to market costing your "customers" not only bitcoin but also mental anguish.  The disconnect you have on reality is evident to all with their eyes open.

Micon, you are mentally deficient.  You simply can't grasp the situation apparently.  I will take you up on your bet as long as you back up your claim that BFL is a scam.  You are refusing, which demonstrates to me that you are liar and do not even believe your own brand of bullshit.

Here's the bottom line: You are making a claim.  You have nothing to back up this claim.  You are not willing to even stand by your claim through a bet.  The only possibly conclusion one can come to:  Bryan Micon is a liar and a scammer.  Heh.. professional poker player indeed.  No wonder you are a failure.

I guess I don't know what to even reply here.  I have offered you a simple bet based on information that you posted.

i suppose this is the most curious statement:

  I will take you up on your bet as long as you back up your claim that BFL is a scam. 

I mean, I am totally 100% willing to bet "false" on this statement:

"Butterfly Labs will deliver 3+ verified ASIC orders that meet or beat specs of 350+ mhash/joule by 3/20/2013"

And Josh Zerlan has demonstrated numerous times he is not willing to back his own words with 20 coins:  https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/692-bfl-asic-status.html   

why you ask?  it's because Josh Zerlan does not believe his own words.  He would jump at the chance to win $600 from me, especially after I created JoshZerlan.com from my Galaxy Note 2, but he knows his words are false and couldn't stand to not only have me pwn him in regards to google results for his name, but also to win $600 USD from him in only a month's time.

Josh's game here is transparent to me:  He won't even bet that his own statements will come true.

[Micon]

I have been extremely clear on what I will or won't bet on.  When a professional bettor offers a bet and it is declined, it is in extremely poor taste to say "ooooooohhhh!!!! you are such a wussy!!! you won't bet me!!!"  Since you are a classless narcissist and natural manipulator of the facts, in your brain it actually makes sense that if I decline your 2000 coin $60,000 vague term'ed wager that I was akin to a scammer.  You can say this while holding millions upon millions in pre-order monies, having missed every deadline for ASICs you have ever posted, having not one but two other companies beat you to market costing your "customers" not only bitcoin but also mental anguish.  The disconnect you have on reality is evident to all with their eyes open.

Micon, you are mentally deficient.  You simply can't grasp the situation apparently.  I will take you up on your bet as long as you back up your claim that BFL is a scam.  You are refusing, which demonstrates to me that you are liar and do not even believe your own brand of bullshit.

Here's the bottom line: You are making a claim.  You have nothing to back up this claim.  You are not willing to even stand by your claim through a bet.  The only possibly conclusion one can come to:  Bryan Micon is a liar and a scammer.  Heh.. professional poker player indeed.  No wonder you are a failure.

All I'm betting is that you are lying here: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/690-13-jan-2013-asic-update-discussion-thread-55.html#post15632

in your official update thread.  I am betting anyone who will take the bet that you are lying, and that BFL will not ship 3 units by 3/20/2013.  By your continued unwillingness to bet me on your own statements, me and everyone with their eyes open can see that even you yourself don't believe your words enough to bet $600 on it.

I once again, for the nth time re-iterate a wager that I willing to bet 20 coins on "false" right now:

"Butterfly Labs will deliver 3+ verified ASIC orders that meet or beat specs of 350+ mhash/joule by 3/20/2013"

So Josh, the ball is in your court, and everyone with a pre-order has to be wondering why you continue to balk at this very clear wager based on terms you posted.

[Inaba]

in your official update thread.  I am betting anyone who will take the bet that you are lying, and that BFL will not ship 3 units by 3/20/2013.  By your continued unwillingness to bet me on your own statements, me and everyone with their eyes open can see that even you yourself don't believe your words enough to bet $600 on it.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem, Bryan?  I said I would take your bet as long as you prove you aren't lying when you say the BFL is a scam by taking me up on the aforementioned bet.  You want me to bet on my words but you are unwilling to bet on your own words.  By your own unwillingness to bet me on your own statements, everyone with their eyes open can see that even you yourself don't believe your words enough to bet 100 BTC on it.  It's clear you are lying and lying about BFL being a scam.  I will take your bet, Bryan, as long as you take mine.  You are the only one holding up this bet at this point.

I'll tell you what Bryan, since you are so unwilling to put any real money down on your own words, lets do this:

You bet your precious domain name that you registered with my name against BTC.  That way, you are only out the price of a domain name when you lose.  You tell me how much you'd sell me that domain name for if I were to buy it outright and perhaps we can come to an agreement where I wager BTC against the domain name. 

[casascius]

I am still fully on board with providing the escrow services, but I am going to stop monitoring this thread because I'm finding the back-and-forth dialogue irritating.  Please contact me via PM if my help is needed.

[creativex]

becoin, you are ridiculous. You said word for word "BFL is going to deliver something like a bitcoin mining ASIC", which contradicts "BFL is a scam" (because everybody except you interprets it as meaning "BFL will deceive by not delivering anything").

In your very own vocabulary, "is a scam" seems to mean "is late". If that is what you want to complain about then use the adjective "late", not the noun "scam". How many times do I have to explain this?

it may not be that black and white. For arguments sake, lets assume BFL gets their 75K chips tomorrow, assembles everything and then  does "burn in tests" of  their hardware for 6 months straight before shipping. Would that make it a scam or just late?

+1

This would meet my definition of a scam. ASICMiner is online and some Avalon units are confirmed hashing yet still nothing concrete from the first company to announce an ASIC mining product and here's the COO of BFL balking at accepting a simple 20BTC bet that they'll be able to deliver a very small number of working ASICs by 3/20/2013. This is a stunning nine months after they began taking in funds for this "product" and five months after their first shipping deadline has come and gone. That bet should be easy money for a BFL officer that has the inside dope on whats going on within the company...unless things aren't nearly as rosy as they're being portrayed. A huge red flag for anyone considering a BFL investment at this time IMO regardless how JZ tries to spin it.

[mrb]

In your very own vocabulary, "is a scam" seems to mean "is late". If that is what you want to complain about then use the adjective "late", not the noun "scam". How many times do I have to explain this?

Just answer my question!

Do you think my grandma won't deserve a scammer tag if she delivers "something" after indefinite number of delays and after outsourcing every possible aspect of ASIC creation?

The answer to your question is: no. For the same reason, if "BFL delivers something like a bitcoin mining ASIC" after numerous delays and even after outsourcing everything, then no, it does not make them scammers. For the 3rd or 4th time: this is why you are so under-appreciated on the forums: you use a word "scam" that does not mean what you think it means. You would be correct to describe BFL as "late" or "incompetent planners" (I would not disagree), but not "scammers".

[Micon]

in your official update thread.  I am betting anyone who will take the bet that you are lying, and that BFL will not ship 3 units by 3/20/2013.  By your continued unwillingness to bet me on your own statements, me and everyone with their eyes open can see that even you yourself don't believe your words enough to bet $600 on it.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem, Bryan?  I said I would take your bet as long as you prove you aren't lying when you say the BFL is a scam by taking me up on the aforementioned bet.  You want me to bet on my words but you are unwilling to bet on your own words.  By your own unwillingness to bet me on your own statements, everyone with their eyes open can see that even you yourself don't believe your words enough to bet 100 BTC on it.  It's clear you are lying and lying about BFL being a scam.  I will take your bet, Bryan, as long as you take mine.  You are the only one holding up this bet at this point.

I'll tell you what Bryan, since you are so unwilling to put any real money down on your own words, lets do this:

You bet your precious domain name that you registered with my name against BTC.  That way, you are only out the price of a domain name when you lose.  You tell me how much you'd sell me that domain name for if I were to buy it outright and perhaps we can come to an agreement where I wager BTC against the domain name.  

Ah so we get to the meat of the issue.  

I will make you a wager-offer that if you refuse it, your possible pre-order customers will know 100% that your company is not legitimate and you do not believe your own posts:

I willing to bet Josh Zerlan my 20 coins + the JoshZerlan.com domain vs Josh Zerlan's 20 coins only on "false" to the following statement:

"Butterfly Labs will deliver 3+ verified ASIC orders that meet or beat specs of 350+ mhash/joule by 3/20/2013"

That's right Josh!  I'm throwing the domain in for free - my 20 coins + JoshZerlan.com vs. your 20 coins.  

casascius I apologize for making you read this thread.   Even if Josh can find a way not to take this bet I have 3x btc-address escrow'ed bets that will settle in the next few months so we will see your system in action and the technical achievement will be displayed here.  If Josh does want to bet I will request code via PM.

[Inaba]

Bryan, let me be perfectly clear because you don't seem to be hearing me.  I will not take your bet until you take my bet.  The entire point of your argument is that BFL is a scam, not that BFL won't ship before X date.  Until you either admit that you are lying about BFL being a scam or you back it up with a bet, we will not move forward. 

We can discuss the terms of YOUR bet after you agree to one of the following two things:

A) You are lying about BFL being a scam.
B) You prove that you actually believe that BFL is a scam and do so via a non-trivial bet.

The only reason I'm even proposing a bet is because you are an admitted "professional" gambler, and this ties in with your self-image.  So, name your price on the domain name either in USD or BTC that you would sell it to me for outright and that will be the value you place on the domain name.  At that point we can discuss the actual bet and how it would be carried out.

After we come to an agreement, I will take you up on your 20 BTC bet you have proposed.

[Micon]

Bryan, let me be perfectly clear because you don't seem to be hearing me.  I will not take your bet until you take my bet.  The entire point of your argument is that BFL is a scam, not that BFL won't ship before X date.  Until you either admit that you are lying about BFL being a scam or you back it up with a bet, we will not move forward.  

We can discuss the terms of YOUR bet after you agree to one of the following two things:

A) You are lying about BFL being a scam.
B) You prove that you actually believe that BFL is a scam and do so via a non-trivial bet.

The only reason I'm even proposing a bet is because you are an admitted "professional" gambler, and this ties in with your self-image.  So, name your price on the domain name either in USD or BTC that you would sell it to me for outright and that will be the value you place on the domain name.  At that point we can discuss the actual bet and how it would be carried out.

After we come to an agreement, I will take you up on your 20 BTC bet you have proposed.

I seriously can barely make sense of your posts.  I'm offering a simple bet.  It has simple terms.  I'm adding in the domain JoshZerlan.com at no additional cost.

I'm not interested in any other offer.  I have told you this on fucking repeat.  "I will bet you when you do these random things" is just childish and silly.  

If you believed your own words about the BFL timeline you would jump at the chance to get JoshZerlan.com - but we both know BFL has 0% chance to ship a product by 3/20.  

no update from bumping facility still?  no pictures yet?    

[cAPSLOCK]

Do you have a reading comprehension problem, Bryan?  I said I would take your bet as long as you prove you aren't lying when you say the BFL is a scam by taking me up on the aforementioned bet.

God this thread is like watching a train wreck.

But Josh, you are either assuming everyone around you is a fool, or you just don't understand how bets are made.

Micon has said in the past he is sceptical about the legitimacy of your company.  He may have called it a "scam" i dont know.  And he has placed a fairly significant amount of money in escrow on carefully worded bets he may or may not win.

The terms of a bet are important.

He is by NO MEANS  under ANY obligation to take an almost entirely open ended bet in your favour for tens of thousands of dollars.  It doesn't have ANYTHING to do with what he thinks of your company... it's just a stupid bet.  You said this:

I hereby once again challenge Bryan Micon to a 100 BTC or 2000 BTC (or any number in between) wager that BFL will deliver ASICs in 2013 in escrow.

So you are saying "Micon is a liar" if he won't take a bet for a fucking luxury car amount of money (or used car) based on wording that would mean you could win if you were to walk across the street  and hand a stranger (deliver) this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genunie-Pinball-5410-12426-01-Bally-Williams-CPU-ASIC-CHIP-/140910943647

Shoot... you could mail your brother one of these:


...oh, and any time until Jan 1st 2014 is good.

Also... not sure what you meant by "in escrow". I assume it has to do with the money for the bet...  but the place you put it in the sentence makes it sound like it has to do with the delivery.  One could argue you already have money in escrow for the delivery of your product.  Or the delivery of your product is in escrow or limbo or something...

I think your whole damn line is just a bunch of posturing.

[Herbert]

@Mod, please move this thread of garbage to offtopic.

[Inaba]

Bryan, as I said, I'm not interested in your stupid bet about "When will BFL ship ASICs."  That's not the issue.

I am interested in the fact that you are calling BFL a scam.  That is what I want to bet on.  Furthermore, as I said, I would take your bet out of courtesy  after you accept mine.  Your claim is false.  You are refusing to back up your claim, yet you want me to put money on my claim.  I've already told you I will put money on my claim if you put up something of value for your claim, but you refuse.

That pretty much tells all the facts that you don't actually believe your claim, whereas I'm willing to bet on my claim but you continually dance around the issue and keep harping about "When will BFL ship ASICs!!!" then in your other thread, you claim BFL is a scam.

Bottom line is, you are a liar.  This proves the fact that you're a liar, so I will continue to let everyone who posts in this thread know that you are a liar.

[uhoh]

@Mod, please move this thread of garbage to offtopic.

+1 - This has become a pathetic dick-swinging contest which you've both massively lost.

[becoin]

Bryan, as I said, I'm not interested in your stupid bet about "When will BFL ship ASICs."  That's not the issue.

LOL. Why don't you ask your customers if that's an issue or not?

[Inaba]

You know, it occurred to me that Bryan Micon doesn't even have enough confidence in his claim that BFL is a scam to put up a $9 USD domain name against any amount of BTC.  All he has to do is tell me what he'd sell the domain outright for in USD or BTC and we might have ourselves a bet.  Hell, I'd even let casascius be the arbitrator of when the bet would be satisfied one way or another. 

Bryan Micon is unwilling to bet even $9 that is claim is true.  That pretty much says it all.

[Micon]

Bryan, as I said, I'm not interested in your stupid bet about "When will BFL ship ASICs."  That's not the issue.

well that's what this thread is about - a bet on when BFL will ship ASICs - and you continue to troll it up.

I am clearly here to wager.  I have 3 bets.  I stand to win $5k+ when BFL continues to miss dates.  

If Josh wants to argue with me about weather or not the BFL scam is a scam, he must do so in the BFL scam investigation thread:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=136392.0

I ask all users to click "report to moderator" on Josh Zerlan's future posts in this thread.

He is very clearly not here to gamble, only troll, and I would like to continue wagering.

[Micon]

Bryan, let me be perfectly clear because you don't seem to be hearing me.  I will not take your bet until you take my bet.  The entire point of your argument is that BFL is a scam, not that BFL won't ship before X date.  Until you either admit that you are lying about BFL being a scam or you back it up with a bet, we will not move forward. 

We can discuss the terms of YOUR bet after you agree to one of the following two things:

A) You are lying about BFL being a scam.
B) You prove that you actually believe that BFL is a scam and do so via a non-trivial bet.

The only reason I'm even proposing a bet is because you are an admitted "professional" gambler, and this ties in with your self-image.  So, name your price on the domain name either in USD or BTC that you would sell it to me for outright and that will be the value you place on the domain name.  At that point we can discuss the actual bet and how it would be carried out.

After we come to an agreement, I will take you up on your 20 BTC bet you have proposed.

I seriously can barely make sense of your posts.  I'm offering a simple bet.  It has simple terms.  I'm adding in the domain JoshZerlan.com at no additional cost.

I'm not interested in any other offer.  I have told you this on fucking repeat.  "I will bet you when you do these random things" is just childish and silly. 

If you believed your own words about the BFL timeline you would jump at the chance to get JoshZerlan.com - but we both know BFL has 0% chance to ship a product by 3/20. 

no update from bumping facility still?  no pictures yet?    

You know, it occurred to me that Bryan Micon doesn't even have enough confidence in his claim that BFL is a scam to put up a $9 USD domain name against any amount of BTC.  All he has to do is tell me what he'd sell the domain outright for in USD or BTC and we might have ourselves a bet.  Hell, I'd even let casascius be the arbitrator of when the bet would be satisfied one way or another. 

Bryan Micon is unwilling to bet even $9 that is claim is true.  That pretty much says it all.

Do you live in reality?  do you not read the replies?  my 20 coins + the domain vs. your 20 coins only that BFL ships 3 ASICs by 3/20

aw hell, this is pointless.  He is clearly here just to fuck this thread up.

Users interested in keeping this thread clean:  From this point on, please ignore & report all Inaba posts in this thread.  There is a BFL scammer thread he can fight me on the merits of BFL if he wants to continue. 

This thread is for betting only, please help me restore it that way.  I am msg'ing the mods about this as well, it's clearly run it's course and is out of control.

[Micon]

@Mod, please move this thread of garbage to offtopic.

+1 - This has become a pathetic dick-swinging contest which you've both massively lost.

I am asking Theymos to see what we can do here.  mrb, Teal, myself, and SgtSpike have like $5k+ and growing on bets for and against BFL, so I really do not want this moved to off topic. From here,  I ask all users to please report Josh's future posts - we really must return this thread to betting only.