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Author Topic: Bryan Micon's Butterfly Labs Scammer Investigation including Josh Zerlan  (Read 56092 times)
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January 14, 2013, 09:46:28 AM
 #1

*** Butterfly Labs Scammer Investigation Abstract ***

Josh Zerlan or anyone from BFL is welcome to openly debate me or answer any of these questions on my DonkDown podcast or any other format we can just record and upload for free for everyone to hear

Some of you may remember the Pirateat40 & BCST debacle [ http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/15/3243200/bitcoin-ponzi-schemes-savings-and-trust   |   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=94900.msg1049935#msg1049935  ].  It cost the community ~$5M when delimited in USD.  Myself and other members of the community feel a similar situation may be going on at Butterfly Labs.  They are in the race for ASIC mining technology, along with a handful of other groups.  Their goal is to be first-to-market with a chip that mines bitcoins at an extremely fast and energy efficient rate.  As of 1/23/2013 a competing company that BFL references many times as their competition claims to have shipped their first batch of ASIC miners: [ https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137534.0 ] Many of you, like me, have noticed the outlandish spending on advertising asking for pre-orders for ASIC devices.   While I spend most of my time helping to run SealsWithClubs and have a brand new baby girl, after my interaction with BFL representatives on the floor of CES 2013 I now feel it is my responsibility to bring a full investigation into this company.  I further understand that many bitcoin community members have done much of this research themselves.  I hope to collect all links and full information in a fact-based manner.  My personal best-guess as to what is going on in general at BFL is that they collected a massive amount (many millions when delimited in USD, exact figure unknown) of pre-orders, thought whatever sourcing they had contracted with could produce working ASIC chips, then there were many delays for many technical reasons likely costing BFL more money, so they responded by massively increasing advertising for more pre-orders.  Many ads that are floating around Bitcointalk still say simply "xx Gh/s for $xxx Butterfly labs" when they are clearly not capable of shipping said product at this time.  It is impossible to know the exact current state of the company, but it is my impression after my personal interactions with the company executives that they are stressed an lying to the public.  They may have a hail-Mary play gambling community pre-order money on another run of chips, or they may have absolutely no product and collecting as much as possible before they go belly-up, either legally with a chapter whatever bankruptcy or illegally by jumping on a plane with a thumbdrive full of BTC.  1 man's thoughts, 1 man's investigation.  I smell a rat and I think this one may set the record for biggest btc community loss, previously held by Pirateat40.

Questions I feel the community deserves answers to:

"What hardware did you bring to CES 2013?  Where you mining at CES 2013?"
"How much in USD have you collected in pre-orders?"
"Are you using the pre-order monies to fund current R&D?"
"Are you using the pre-order monies to pay current salaries?"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*** Butterfly Labs Company Information [ty lucif] ***
http://opencorporates.com/companies/us_wy/2011-000606261

BF Labs Inc.
Company Number 2011-000606261
Status Active
Incorporation Date 2 August 2011 (over 1 year ago)
Company Type Profit Corporation
Jurisdiction Wyoming (US)
Registered Address 5830 E 2nd St Casper, WY 82609 USA United States
Registry Page https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?FilingNum=2011-000606261

http://www.butterflylabs.com/contact/
Address: PO Box 413671
Kansas City, Missouri 64141-3761
United States of America
Telephone: 913-271-6744
(M-F 9-5 CST/CDT) Voicemail: 816 226 6966
Fax: 816 226 6966
e-mail: office@butterflylabs.com
Skype: butterflylabs

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*** Butterfly Labs Link Dump ***

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/6/prweb9611889.htm  <-- initial press release 7/15/2012 citing "private venture capital" as backing the company.  

BitcoinTalk Butterfly Labs ASIC Thread [active]:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.0 [6/16/2012 OP date]

Avalon ASIC Batch #1 shipping thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137534.0

elux's BFL scammer thread, concerning Sonny Vleisides:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.0

Sonny Vleisides "intro" thread as BFL_Sonny:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110868.0

Codinginmysleep Sonny Vleisides interview: http://codinginmysleep.com/interview-with-sonny-vleisides/

Video of Josh Zerlan, Butterfly Labs CEO on the floor of CES 2013 when I asked about the BFL hardware: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlWrmIqGs3Y&feature=youtu.be&t=2m20s

JoshZerlan.com launched. http://joshzerlan.com/  Help requested on adding info.

Information on a possible past crime committed by Josh Zerlan

Micon v mrb betting thread on this matter: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135914.0

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*** Day 2 2013 CES Encounter with Josh Zerlan of Butterfly Labs ***

13 minute youtube cue'd to the part where I ask Josh Zerlan of Butterfly Labs to show me the equipment he brought to CES 2013 and he instead uses profanity, hands me a quarter, and refuses to answer the questions of what he knew at this point was a well-informed skeptic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlWrmIqGs3Y&feature=youtu.be&t=2m36s

** Josh Zerlan has claimed I was acting in a manner on Day 1 CES 2013 that warranted this response from him.  Josh was not in the booth on day 1, only Dave.  
full 2013 bitcoin CES thread:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133487.0
My account of day1 when asked in the CES 2013 thread : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133487.msg1452374#msg1452374  

I am re-posting my day1 account below this epic pic:



Bryan Micon's Account of Day1 Interaction with BFL @ CES 2013:  

Quote from: Micon
This is to the best I can remember.  I wasn't recording anything day 1, wasn't planning on anything but sneaking into CES to shake some BTC hands as I always do when BTC companies buy booths in Vegas for conventions.

1)  About "sneaking in" to CES:  I always "sneak in" to all conventions I want to go to here in Vegas.  I wear my WSOP media badge from a few years ago and just walk in like a boss.  Sure I could call whatever bitcoin-facing booth is there and have them give me a badge for the ~30 minutes I'll be there.  As will all conferences, the booth buyers usually need to pay extra for another badge, or at the very least pull a "hey let me use your badge and then I walk out with 2 badges and give one to you"   - I "sneak in" because it is +EV for everyone involved.  Next time, if ever, BFL comes to the conference I will acquire a legitimate badge as it was clear they called security to have me removed.  

2)  About the "stomping and cussing" on day 1 that Josh keeps referring to.  First off, Josh was not there day 1.  Only Dave was in the booth representing BFL.  I imagine Josh was off doing Yoga or other form of meditation & self-reflection.  We will get to that in a second.  Let's start at the beginning:

3)  Whenever a bitcoin booth at any conference comes to Vegas, I go to say hi, shake a hand, say "hey, I'm Micon.  I help Freemoney run SealsWithClubs, the market leading bitcoin online poker site."  And just see who is there and what they want to talk about, trade bitcoin ideas for ~20-30 minutes then be on my way.  I have done this many times and met a bunch of BTC industry leaders.  Erik Voorhees I met this way and he is an amazingly awesome human, and Charlie Shrem I met I think at the same Money2020 conference maybe 6 months ago or so at Aria, and I had Charlie on my donkdown podcast for an awesome interview about the bitinstant operation based in New York.  I was skeptical about parts of bitinstant and bitpay at the start, but when I asked the company directors of those organizations I was met with clear answers and follow up interviews.

4) Ok so I was on the same grind on day 1 CES - just go and meet the boys again, shake some hands, congratulate bitpay on the round of funding, etc.  My daughter was born ~ 2 weeks ago but I made time before picking my parents up at the airport to stop by CES to do this because I feel it is very important, + I'm a huge nerd and CES is nerd porn.  Right after the nerd porn convention they have a real porn convention here but that's not the point of this story.  When I found the Bitpay booth,  I didn't realize they would be sharing a booth with BFL, in fact I was very excited to see BFL equipment on display and I planned on asking some extremely nerdy questions about how the hardware will solve the proof-of-work problem much, much faster than current equipment.  I also wanted to understand the metrics of what ASIC will do to the network hash rate, as I understand mining conceptually but not technically.

5) Dave immediately engaged me when I walked near the BFL equipment.  I congratulated him on selling a large amount of pre-orders.  he said in a smug way "yeah... we've done very well"  To a studied poker professional such as myself, his body language gave me the impression that this man felt by collecting the pre-order monies he has already done well.   If I were in his shoes, the first thing I would have said was "We have a huge responsibility to get these things shipped ASAP.  The community has handed us a large amount of money"   I would feel like the weight of the world was on my shoulders to make good on the massively distributed promise of sending these machines.  Dave felt like a winner, IMO.

6)  I asked very plainly "is this your ASICs" or something to that effect.  This is when it got predatory.  He showed me the box of fans + 1 android tablet and said that is where ASIC chips will eventually go, and the android device will be the output screen to show you how fast it's mining and other stats.  I asked what the cube connected to a second android sitting on top of the fan-box was, and Dave said it's an FPGA miner that BFL used to sell, but it wasn't currently mining and you can't buy it from BFL anymore.  I asked Dave what items were available for purchase right now from BFL that they could ship immediately, he said there were none.  I then asked when they would ship ASICs, he said "in a couple of weeks," and showed me 3 cases that ASIC chips would come inside.

7)  After it was clear I was no longer a friendly and was asking some tough questions, he hit me with a classic scammer line something to the effect of "if you don't believe in BFL, then you don't believe in bitcoin."  This is where the "stomping and profanity" as Josh put it came in.  Please don't take Josh's or My word for it - Ask the bitpay guys about this next part - I give a very intelligent response to Dave, certainly using profanity for emphasis (but not in the personally derogatory way that Josh Zerlan does to me here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlWrmIqGs3Y&feature=youtu.be&t=2m43s ) more like "I believe so much in bitcoin that I wear this fucking button (point to bitcoin button I always wear when leaving the house for any reason) each day, and help run the market leading bitcoin online poker site, dedicating most of my awake time to the betterment of this technology."  Ask the bitpay guys.  I was certainly pissed off, and this guy used a classic scammer line on me and IMO it required a forceful response so Dave understands that I'm a real guy with real BTC credentials, and his line is bullshit and +1's in my head that he and his company are dishonest.

  After my response, emotions briefly settled, and I asked him when filled with ASICs how fast this machine would hash at.  He said something like 1+ T-hashes per second.  I.e. 1000 ghashes/s , would produce in terms of Dave did not know network hashrate.  I told him it wasn't a test, just tell me about how many T-hashes/s the network hash rate was.  Dave said he still didn't know, so I quickly looked it up on my Galaxy Note II by Samsung running Android Jellybean OS by removing the S-pen and quickly speaking into google "total bitcoin network hashrate"   This site came up: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/  and to me it looks like the current total bitcoin network hashrate is around 20-25 Thash/s - which means that if Dave was right, just one of these boxes could have ~ 6% of total current network hashing power.   I was surprised he had never run the math before...

9) so after this, I post the pic I took and illustrated that BFL did not bring anything worthwhile to CES.  I posted on bitcointalk that I'd be back tomorrow to film closely and ask the tough questions.  Obviously we all saw Josh Zerlan's response: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlWrmIqGs3Y&feature=youtu.be&t=2m43s


If there is anything that needs clarification please ask.  I am 100% transparent.  I further state that it is possible I have made a small chronological or grammatical error of some sort.  I feel I captured the general feel of the day 1 CES experience as it relates to BFL.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** Josh Zerlan exhibits low-confidence tells at CES 2013 when a different reporter asks about when the actual ASICs will be shipped ***

I have the video cue'd to a few seconds before so you can hear the reporter ask the questions then see Josh's reply, notice the down-left eye movement at 4:41 mark.  This is a classic, instant, involuntary low-confidence tell that comes from the limbic part of the brain:

http://youtu.be/5ZUPniBo5UQ?t=4m29s




-------------------------------------------------------------

*** Info Still Needed ***

-- Full list of principals of BFL
-- Any sourcing info, i.e. links where any BFL has either denied saying where they are being produced at or listing a location, country, or company that is producing them.

Site pro SealsWithClubs.eu Bitcoin Poker |  Pro Poker Player  |  my poker forum & podcast DonkDown.com  | BitcoinVapes.com | @BryanMicon
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January 14, 2013, 10:46:16 AM
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For info. I submitted request to US Securities and Exchanges Comission to verify are the BF Labs Inc actions are legit

My request ID is: TCR1357902718572

Another user PM'ed me he submitted another request, as Josh refused full BTC refund. His request id is TCR1358148611768.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA7iAMTAWHM

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January 14, 2013, 11:16:06 AM
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Rofl. Have fun.

Tired of disagreeing with people? Join the anti-BFL circlejerk today!
Matthew N. Wright puts painfully obvious IP loggers in PMs. I can't believe anyone ever trusted this guy.
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January 14, 2013, 11:33:02 AM
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Another user PM'ed me he submitted another request, as Josh refused full BTC refund.
Refusing full refunds already sucks. Do they really think they can get away with that?

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January 14, 2013, 11:35:52 AM
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This thread would have much more traction if you'd stop plastering your name all over it like you're a telemarketer announcing the newest "TV Shopping Bitcoin Minirigs for YOUR HomeTM Buy one, get none."

Just saying.

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January 14, 2013, 12:03:06 PM
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This thread would have much more traction if you'd stop plastering your name all over it like you're a telemarketer announcing the newest "TV Shopping Bitcoin Minirigs for YOUR HomeTM Buy one, get none."

Just saying.
It's called SEO Smiley

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January 14, 2013, 12:10:10 PM
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This thread would have much more traction if you'd stop plastering your name all over it like you're a telemarketer announcing the newest "TV Shopping Bitcoin Minirigs for YOUR HomeTM Buy one, get none."

Just saying.
It's called SEO Smiley

I call it denigrating the intended target of the thread. The thread as is seems not so much about BFL, but more about BRYAN MICON prosecuting BFL.

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January 14, 2013, 12:21:21 PM
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hahaha I had not noticed your signature "I'm not the law, but I represent justice", says someone who criticizes and judges at will.

There still vescudero on your list of scammers, a reputed trader, but Micon do and say what he wants.

Have the credibility of a narcissistic troll

Sorry for my bad english Wink
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January 14, 2013, 01:08:34 PM
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LOL @

Top 10 Reasons why Bryan Micon is a Piece of Shit Scumbag

found that while on Google Tongue

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January 14, 2013, 06:18:46 PM
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Interview with Josh. He explains everything. You don't have a reason to worry!

Subtitles: on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=C4SnUObMd0o

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January 14, 2013, 06:25:58 PM
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For info. I submitted request to US Securities and Exchanges Comission to verify are the BF Labs Inc actions are legit
What does the SEC have to do with a company that is neither offering nor trading securities?
My request ID is: TCR1357902718572

Another user PM'ed me he submitted another request, as Josh refused full BTC refund. His request id is TCR1358148611768.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA7iAMTAWHM
By "full BTC refund", do you mean that he expected to receive the same number of BTC he paid with, despite the price of BTC rising?  BFL quoted their prices in US Dollars, so refunds will be in dollars as well.

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January 14, 2013, 06:33:12 PM
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$25M Ponzi

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January 14, 2013, 06:43:00 PM
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BFL quoted their prices in US Dollars, so refunds will be in dollars as well.
Everybody that paid BTC was quoted in BTC as well. There is no way you know how many BTC you have to send BFL if the price is not quoted in BTC!

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January 14, 2013, 08:41:16 PM
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Hi Bryan.

I am also a poker player, albeit an amateur, but I do have a couple cashes at WSOP and WSOPc. I have read several poker books which go over tells pretty extensively. It is easy for BFL to lie in forum posts and announcements/press releases, however when they do it face to face, they cannot hide involuntary responses the body has while lying. After reading your post and watching your video, I started looking around for articles/videos of BFL at CES.

I found this video interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZUPniBo5UQ

If you fast forward to 4:25, you will see the camera man ask Josh a tough question... something along the lines of "Now this is just a case, you don't actually have ASICs ready?" At this moment Josh gives off several visual tells.

First, he is blinking quickly, which is an involuntary reaction to bluffing (if you don't play poker, bluffing means lying). Now I went back through the rest of the video and he actually blinks a lot more often than a normal person, so as you know Bryan, this tell cannot be given much credence.

Secondly, Josh looked down and to the left at least three times while answering the tough question of "so.. this is just a box of fans?" and saying his product will ship soon. This was the most obvious tell for me that he was lying and already knew about a delay that hadn't been announced or are not shipping products at all. This is the most telling of his visual tells and the one that really made me think he was lying.

After watching this video I do not trust BFL or Josh at all. Good luck on your effort to prove BFL is a scam. I for one am happy to have got a refund so now I don't need to worry about my money being in BFL's pockets.

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January 14, 2013, 10:50:24 PM
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You do realise that if BFL is legit, you're going to look the biggest clown in the whole Bitcoin community for a very long time...
Especially with the video, scam accusations and constant tirade against BFL. You've made the whole BFL issue into Mircon vs BFL.

Either you'll come out smelling of roses or look a complete moron.

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January 14, 2013, 10:53:17 PM
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For info. I submitted request to US Securities and Exchanges Comission to verify are the BF Labs Inc actions are legit
What does the SEC have to do with a company that is neither offering nor trading securities?
My request ID is: TCR1357902718572

Another user PM'ed me he submitted another request, as Josh refused full BTC refund. His request id is TCR1358148611768.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA7iAMTAWHM
By "full BTC refund", do you mean that he expected to receive the same number of BTC he paid with, despite the price of BTC rising?  BFL quoted their prices in US Dollars, so refunds will be in dollars as well.

When there is no actual product and no prototypes accepting orders is an "investment" not a purchase. It is basically a no interest loan especially if they use the funds to finance their production process. In this case yes the SEC does prosecute investment scams, because thats what it is.

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January 14, 2013, 11:07:10 PM
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You do realise that if BFL is legit, you're going to look the biggest clown in the whole Bitcoin community for a very long time...
Especially with the video, scam accusations and constant tirade against BFL. You've made the whole BFL issue into Mircon vs BFL.

Either you'll come out smelling of roses or look a complete moron.

Yawn, people said the same thing about PirateAt40

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January 14, 2013, 11:09:05 PM
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You do realise that if BFL is legit, you're going to look the biggest clown in the whole Bitcoin community for a very long time...
What if BFL is a scam? A scam worth 1/4 of the total bitcoin market cap? Wow... That may easily become the end of bitcoin?!

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January 14, 2013, 11:09:57 PM
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You do realise that if BFL is legit, you're going to look the biggest clown in the whole Bitcoin community for a very long time...
Especially with the video, scam accusations and constant tirade against BFL. You've made the whole BFL issue into Mircon vs BFL.

Either you'll come out smelling of roses or look a complete moron.

Yawn, people said the same thing about PirateAt40
is really stupid compare pirateat40 with BFL.

Sorry for my bad english Wink
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January 14, 2013, 11:13:21 PM
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Micon - I'll gladly take you up on a 1:1 bet that BFL will deliver.  I'd put down 20 BTC that BFL will deliver an ASIC miner by the end of 2013.

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